Will there be build points for vehicles? (playtest / 2nd edition)


Prerelease Discussion


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Anyone know if the playtest or full rules of Pathfinder second edition is expected to have anything analogous to the Starfinder system for starships? Specifically interested in the aspects of using build points rather than direct party wealth to upgrade the ship and the discrete rule set for vehicle vs vehicle combat. I know pathfinder first edition had some aspects of ship vs ship in things like Swords and Shackles but Starfinder’s system seems more fleshed out like its its own game mode. Ship building and combat has actually been my favorite part of the Starfinder campaign Ive been playing in and I’m really hoping to do something similar back in Pathfinder at some point.


I'd personally love build points for ships (and buildings) as well. When things are based on gold, players simply won't touch it - they'd rather spend that gold upgrading their character. Build points on the other hand don't take away from their personal power curve, and so are a good way of handling a large shared possession.


If Paizo doesn't already have ship rules queued up, I've got some in my back pocket I intend to use for a playtest campaign I have in mind.

Is there a Starfinder SRD where I can see their ship combat rules?


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I hope they don't, since vehicles aren't really a big enough focus of the system to be worth the page count in Core compared to the other things. Things like this should probably be in supplements (and even then I'd hope they don't use Starfinder style rules since those are very slow and repetitive in my experience for something that should probably be a minigame rather than a whole system).


Fuzzypaws wrote:
I'd personally love build points for ships (and buildings) as well. When things are based on gold, players simply won't touch it - they'd rather spend that gold upgrading their character. Build points on the other hand don't take away from their personal power curve, and so are a good way of handling a large shared possession.

Exactly what I was thinking. We often play where we add an extra share for party purchases like transport or healing/resurrection but its not enough to cover the full commitment to a vehicle

RangerWickett wrote:

If Paizo doesn't already have ship rules queued up, I've got some in my back pocket I intend to use for a playtest campaign I have in mind.

Is there a Starfinder SRD where I can see their ship combat rules?

Yes its called Starjammer, its a little clunky but it has all the rules

Milo v3 wrote:
I hope they don't, since vehicles aren't really a big enough focus of the system to be worth the page count in Core compared to the other things. Things like this should probably be in supplements (and even then I'd hope they don't use Starfinder style rules since those are very slow and repetitive in my experience for something that should probably be a minigame rather than a whole system).

Minigame is pretty dismissive, I think of it as another game mode just like encounter or exploration. Vehicles may not be a big part of 1.0 but this is about 2.0 and so that might change. Just because you dont like something (its alignment for me) doesnt mean other tables dont love it or it not worth having. I hear you on the page count bit but itd be a missed opportunity not include it in the playtest since it might represent a significant amount of game time/party power if they roll it out.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
When things are based on gold, players simply won't touch it - they'd rather spend that gold upgrading their character.

That may be typical, but its not universally true. We build things all the time in one game I co-DM. That's the most used portion of Ultimate Campaign for me.

Speaking of Ultimate Campaign, I never use the four types of non-gold resources (Influence, Labor, etc.) when building. As a Player and as a DM, the natural question has been "how much will it cost?"

But I don't know Starfinder at all. What is a "Build Point" and how does one earn them?


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In Starfinder, build points are a party resource based on average party level, and they cannot be altered by any other means except GM fiat. These points are used for upgrading the party starship.

Build points cannot be converted to or from the credits that players own as individuals -- in fact, that is a basic premise of the game, as players could gain quite a bit of personal wealth if there were any method for converting build points to credits.


David knott 242 wrote:

In Starfinder, build points are a party resource based on average party level, and they cannot be altered by any other means except GM fiat. These points are used for upgrading the party starship.

Build points cannot be converted to or from the credits that players own as individuals -- in fact, that is a basic premise of the game, as players could gain quite a bit of personal wealth if there were any method for converting build points to credits.

Thanks for the description.

So Build Points are intended to offer some convenience of keeping ship-scale resources from mixing with character-scale resources. That is, they don't sell the ship and run around in the ultimate form of power armor.

I'm curious, when players capture an enemy ship that they do not intend to keep, does the game assume they salvage a bunch of Build Points from it, do they sell it for cash, or a mix?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Chance Wyvernspur wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

In Starfinder, build points are a party resource based on average party level, and they cannot be altered by any other means except GM fiat. These points are used for upgrading the party starship.

Build points cannot be converted to or from the credits that players own as individuals -- in fact, that is a basic premise of the game, as players could gain quite a bit of personal wealth if there were any method for converting build points to credits.

Thanks for the description.

So Build Points are intended to offer some convenience of keeping ship-scale resources from mixing with character-scale resources. That is, they don't sell the ship and run around in the ultimate form of power armor.

I'm curious, when players capture an enemy ship that they do not intend to keep, does the game assume they salvage a bunch of Build Points from it, do they sell it for cash, or a mix?

Generally, they leave them as burning hulks drifting through space - there's not much of the boarding sort of action that occurs under the default rules.


I would like rules for operating vehicles, and vehicle-based encounters...
Leave the economics dependant upon the needs of the individual campaign/scenario.

Being able to sell a pirate ship for what it would actually be worth could easily break the WBL guidelines for a low-level party in almost any campaign. The PF2 version of ULtimate Campaign would be a good place to discuss campaign-based solutions to all such economical problems.


Enlight_Bystand wrote:
Generally, they leave them as burning hulks drifting through space - there's not much of the boarding sort of action that occurs under the default rules.

They don't tow them back for salvage? Even a giant lump or iron has value. I guess I'd have to read the game's background to understand.

Well back to PF2e, I can't see embracing a "build points" system over a gold piece value system, but if they did that I'd probably work around it by choosing a conversion rate, or something.


Flavor wise, BP are a combination of salvage claims, patron favors, etc that just so happen to coincidentally and conveniently come through when you level up.

But the GM can of course grant bonus BP, if warranted. Like, my Starfinder group will be participating in a race soon, and if they win part of the prize will be a better drive that I'm not going to count against their BP.


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I really hope that if they use Build Points in PF2 that they have some sort of conversion rate for crafted / invested resources.

One of the characters that I've got right now would be very likely to gather resources and invest his personal wealth in building a custom ship for his personal and party use.

Besides, when you've built yourself up as a Legendary Crafter it would seem somewhat disappointing if you couldn't build yourself a legendary ship.


I wouldn't expect it.

Starships are an integral part of sci-fi/space fantasy.

If you don't have one, you wouldn't even really think of it space fantasy. It would just be set on another world.

Whereas, Pathfinder is vaguely "medieval fantasy". Which doesn't really focus much on the means on transportation.

I expect you'll have vehicles much like in PF1.


Chance Wyvernspur wrote:
I'm curious, when players capture an enemy ship that they do not intend to keep, does the game assume they salvage a bunch of Build Points from it, do they sell it for cash, or a mix?

Currently, the answer is none of the above. You basically cannot salvage, sale, reuse, or do anything at all with ships you "capture".

You could flavor it as how you acquire the build points for when you level up. A nice GM could even allow you to have a "mini-level up" for you starship only and give you some build points in between actual levels up (but always being on target at the point of level up) but that would be "home brew".


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Claxon is right on several accounts here. On Starfinder, they run on very different assumptions for the economy, which I guess makes sense because it is a completely different form of society. But according to the Androids and Aliens podcast I have been listening to, even selling personal equipment only gets you 1/10th the price in that game.

They are also right that vehicles are an integral part of sci-fi and not fantasy. While 2.0 is a new game, every indication is that Paizo intends to use it to tell the same kinds of stories they have always wanted to tell. Which means vehicles probably won't become a bigger focus than before anymore than farming will. (Then again, we are getting an entire new focus on downtime and both a farmer and sailor background, so maybe I'll eat these words.)

I would imagine stuff for ships or other vehicles will get printed into some supplement eventually, but the core rulebook has more important things to iron out. Even mounted combat is more relevant.


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Claxon wrote:

You basically cannot salvage, sale, reuse, or do anything at all with ships you "capture".

You could flavor it as how you acquire the build points for when you level up. A nice GM could even allow you to have a "mini-level up" for you starship only and give you some build points in between actual levels up (but always being on target at the point of level up) but that would be "home brew".

Interesting. So it sounds like they're treating the ship as kind of a group character and enemy ships are just the equivalent of dead orcs.


Chance Wyvernspur wrote:
Claxon wrote:

You basically cannot salvage, sale, reuse, or do anything at all with ships you "capture".

You could flavor it as how you acquire the build points for when you level up. A nice GM could even allow you to have a "mini-level up" for you starship only and give you some build points in between actual levels up (but always being on target at the point of level up) but that would be "home brew".

Interesting. So it sounds like they're treating the ship as kind of a group character and enemy ships are just the equivalent of dead orcs.

Yeah, that's a pretty good analogy.


I hope not. These point based build systems are never balanced well. I really dont care for vehicles at, but if they are done they should be designed/statted by Paizo.

The racebuilder in the ARG is an example of this.

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