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I think the Paizo dudes and dudettes have a running pool in the office, and the top dudes and dudettes made a bet for 500+ FAQ, and they're abusing their power slightly to intimidate the underlings into NOT responding 'just yet' :P
J.R wrote: A bard takes the Triple Time masterpiece and eventually also takes the Discordant Voice feat. If they spend 1 BP to increase land movement for their entire party are you going to accept that everyone in the party within 30 ft of the bard gets +d6 sonic damage for every attack in the next hour without a single additional round of BP spent? Personally I rule things like triple time as spells that use bardic performance rounds as their resource. Mind you at level 11 a d6 on everything sounds underwhelming.
"Boot this baby back up!"
A answer really should happen before PF2.0 since this is essentially an issue based around the Bards big ability, if its not sorted now do we honestly believe its sorted in 2.0. Its an interesting and thematic ability that is cool and useful but it truly needs clarification, this is the main reason that I can't currently think about building bards. Its an ability that allows for serious customization but its unclear.
EtG
I'm sure this will be a easy fix going into 2.0. They just won't do it if they want bards to have set of abilities meant to last longer than while performing they will either make it an extension of existing performances with an extra resource such as x/day you can upgrade a bardic performance to a masterpiece. Or they will be their own subset of rules that don't use the same resource.
Four hundred and forty-four faq requests on the wall, four hundred and forty four faq requests...
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Eldred the Grey wrote: "
A answer really should happen before PF2.0
Should? Absolutely.
Will? Not a chance
It's becoming embarrassing, really.
First, I'm not sure it needs an FAQ. By RAW doesn't it just work? As in, a free-action maintains the effect, and Masterpieces just happen to be allowed as an action concurrently.
When we ran into the "how are you doing other stuff thing" I just figured the flute "continued playing itself" using magic; as there's enough ridiculous magic in the game that a tiny bit of wind blowing itself through the flute literally way below most Cantrips/Orisons.
While I can see GMs (including my initial reaction) thinking "but those two performances will clash" his explanation makes total sense, and I think anyone reasonably reading the developer tell you directly how BP actually works will be willing to bend a bit.
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VRMH wrote: It's becoming embarrassing, really. 'Becoming'? It has BEEN an embarrassment. And it will likely continue to be one no matter how much people howl, because while there is reason to fix it, there is no need to.
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TOZ wrote: VRMH wrote: It's becoming embarrassing, really. 'Becoming'? It has BEEN an embarrassment. And it will likely continue to be one no matter how much people howl, because while there is reason to fix it, there is no need to. How's "prove they can handle broken/ambiguous/contradictory rules" for a need?
This kind of thing is one reason why I'm not planning on picking up PF2. If Paizo can't decide and communicate how they want these rules to work, why should I look at their new rules?
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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
shaventalz wrote: How's "prove they can handle broken/ambiguous/contradictory rules" for a need? Unnecessary if the new player base never heard of the old rules. Very few of my current players ever looked at 3.5.
I think it's kind of clear the abilities. They dont work at the same time.
We just want them to because theres like..what 60? Of these abilities we won't use over inspire courage.
And that's just the honest truth. Do they stack? No. Do we want them to? Yes. Are they giving us a system that doesn't just become inspire courage and now maybe 4 masterpeices and ignore the rest? Unlikely. Because it doesn't help put the other 56 in.
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Cavall is correct, and the reason that it wound up impossible to provide the answer is that we didn't want to give just that answer (even though spells like virtuoso performance and shadow bard did allow you to have a few up at once eventually), which led to the only solution being a full audit of not only every masterpiece ever written but also every other rule that mentions performances, archetypes that add new performances, and so on that might not have been working well with the rule for performances. I've mentioned this before in this thread, and there was some movement towards the community making a community version of such an audit, but I think that idea fell through. If you want to have something that works for your group more-or-less how would we would have analyzed it, try something like this (obviously this is not a FAQ or official ruling and even has you do some of the decision-making for your group, so use it if you want):
*Masterpieces do count as performances (some items and abilities that obviously don't work with performances that have long casting times, think abilities that let you do "a performance" as a swift action or something, get excluded from masterpieces and archetype performances with long casting times)
*A few masterpieces get an exemption from this limitation. To determine whether to give an exemption, first check if the masterpiece runs round-by-round like normal for most of the core performances. If so, you definitely do not give it an exemption. Next check to see if the masterpiece is of equal or greater power to a spell that a spellcaster would be casting using spell slots at the time you can choose the masterpiece; since rounds of bardic performance are incredibly plentiful compared to top-level spell slots, the reason these masterpieces can be so powerful is that they replace your other performance, so do not give an exemption to any such masterpiece (a good example of this is Triple Time, which despite being at 1st level is basically a mass version of the personal-only spell longstrider for what swiftly becomes a trivial cost in performance rounds). For any remaining masterpieces, give them an exemption.
If the official decision is to use we are calling "option #3", that masterpieces are not performances whatsoever, is the full audit still necessary?
The issue as I understand from reading this thread is that there are a lot of features (feats, items, etc.) which interact with bardic performance. If some masterpieces are treated as performances for the purposes of these features, a full audit of each masterpiece would be called for to ensure no broken corner case interactions. However, I do not know of items that specifically reference a bardic masterpiece. (I'd appreciate if someone could point out any.) If we are running with option three, all the features which reference performances do not interact with masterpieces, so no corner cases right?
I feel that the biggest bar preventing this FAQ (for years) is the audit, but in my mind it may be unnecessary if option #3 becomes official.
TLDR: If masterpieces are not performances, why audit items which mention performances?
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We've been good. We've been quiet.
We're being ignored again, aren't we?
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TriOmegaZero wrote: shaventalz wrote: How's "prove they can handle broken/ambiguous/contradictory rules" for a need? Unnecessary if the new player base never heard of the old rules. Very few of my current players ever looked at 3.5. In some places Pathfinder has a reputation to be a game full of complex, unnecesary or just plain broken/non-functional rules. If PF2 want to move away from that, things like this should have been answered or the new player base can be quite small.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
I suspect that reputation will not remain in the new player base for long, unless PF2 continues the trend.
Just checking: As of right now/forever any bardic performance ends any bardic masterpiece? It's been so many years/pages I can't remember.
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Correct.
Barring the community actually going back through all (ALL!) of them and ranking them on how they are for cost, duration, activation and power level, the system will never be balanced in a way that allows it to ever be retuned
Put simply, theres too many options to retune for paizo to bother.
As a community that recently ranked archetypes for every class, perhaps not so much work for us.
As it stands, it's just a way to use a pool up instead of spells, costing a feat or spell slot. It doesn't stack. If you find yourself with rounds left over each day, still a great option
Hello All,
I've just finished reading this entire thread. I'm a little bummed that a masterpiece ends once Bardic Performance starts. I feel masterpieces were added because once bards get to a certain level they never run out of BP rounds. The Devs wanted to give the bards more options with their unused rounds. Enter masterpieces. I'm going to talk to the GM about excluding masterpieces that do not need to be maintained.
I'm building a bard for Curse of the Crimson Throne AP starting in April. I had several masterpieces selected. I've been communicating with my GM and he has yet to make a decision.
I see several masterpieces that aren't on the bard's spell list that grant spells from other lists. I'll be taking those with the expectation they'll be used out of combat situations or when I won't be expected to inspire courage in the rest of the group.
Several masterpieces I think will work quite well in theory: Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain, Pageant of the Peacock, Stone Face and Hymn of the Restorative Harmonics (I'm talking about the Mass Delay Poison effect).
With respect to Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain, is Paizo really concluding the bargain ends once it is fulfilled by the ally or the bard starts another Bardic Performance? That is just nonsense. The duration on Planar Ally is instantaneous.
Xanatheus wrote: Hello All,
I see several masterpieces that aren't on the bard's spell list that grant spells from other lists. I'll be taking those with the expectation they'll be used out of combat situations or when I won't be expected to inspire courage in the rest of the group.
Several masterpieces I think will work quite well in theory: Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain, Pageant of the Peacock, Stone Face and Hymn of the Restorative Harmonics (I'm talking about the Mass Delay Poison effect).
With respect to Legato Piece of the Infernal Bargain, is Paizo really concluding the bargain ends once it is fulfilled by the ally or the bard starts another Bardic Performance? That is just nonsense. The duration on Planar Ally is instantaneous.
Legato of Infernal Bargain does work like Planar Ally instead of a Masterpiece or Performance because it says it does.
Arrowsong's Lament (gives access to other spell lists, like you mentioned) does make up a little for the Bard not getting Spell Kenning (for some inexplicable reason. Grrrr). My fave spell to grab with that is Burst of Radiance, makes for great pyrotechnics for the concert you give your foes!
Battle Hymn is good if you see some teamwork feats you want your party to have.
I understand Legato of the Infernal Bargain works like Planar Ally. My point being said Bard uses that masterpiece to call a planar ally and makes the deal to guard an area for a specified amount of time. The called planar ally can fully expect the effect to end the next time the bard uses one of their other performances thus ending the effect of the Legato of the Infernal Bargain. I'd love any one try to argue this is what the developers had in mind when the Performance is a Masterpiece is a Performance is their belief.
A Masterpiece is only a performance when it is maintained.
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Xanatheus wrote: I understand Legato of the Infernal Bargain works like Planar Ally. My point being said Bard uses that masterpiece to call a planar ally and makes the deal to guard an area for a specified amount of time. The called planar ally can fully expect the effect to end the next time the bard uses one of their other performances thus ending the effect of the Legato of the Infernal Bargain. I'd love any one try to argue this is what the developers had in mind when the Performance is a Masterpiece is a Performance is their belief.
A Masterpiece is only a performance when it is maintained.
The Masterpiece is merely the method used to make the deal. The deal is still in effect and cannot be nullified simply because you started another Performance. So, no. It cannot be terminated simply because you start another Performance.
If that were so, then casting another spell would do the same thing to any other class that used it.
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Yeah its pretty clear it's just used to call it. That's why the actual spell is instant.
This song has a 10 min "casting time" which costs 10 rounds. There is no cost on duration because once it's up its brought the planar outsider to you.
If you change songs during the 10 min, it doesn't work. If you dont have 10 rounds to spend for these 10 min it doesn't work. But it has no duration for a reason. Once it's done it is done.
Thank you for your responses.
Cavall, I disagree. The effect of the bardic performance or in this case masterpiece LotIB is the spell, the entire spell which includes the casting time, bargaining time, the agreed upon price (magic item, gold pieces, etc.) and the agreed upon service. I don't see how that is not the effect of the masterpiece. Also I don't understand what you mean by "There is no cost on duration..." It has an action of 10 minutes. I'm assuming that takes up the time of the outsider appearing, bargaining, handing over of the payment, etc.
Once the bargain is paid for and fulfilled the spell effect is complete and finished.
Fourshadow,I don't understand the premise of your final sentence.
Planar ally.
Casting time 10 min
Duration instant.
This song
Singing time 10 min
Duration instant.
There is no cost per round. After it is done the creature is summoned. What you are suggesting is akin to having a healing spell takes 3 rounds to sing but after the 3rd round if I start a new song the sounds come back because I changed the music. It doesnt matter. It's over. It just takes 3 rounds to "start".
The song is SPECIFIC on saying at the end of the performance, THAT is when the creature comes. It REMAINS for a minute per level. AFTER the performance.
So your statement that it includes the bargaining time? Demonstrably false. The times are included in the song. Give it another read.
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Del_Taco_Eater wrote: Just checking: As of right now/forever any bardic performance ends any bardic masterpiece? It's been so many years/pages I can't remember. No. As of right now there is considerable table variation in how bardic performance interacts with masterpieces. People flat out disagree.
There is NOT consensus on the matter despite some people claiming there is.
Feedback from a designer on this very page disagrees with that, Paul. They dont work at the same time. The issue now is how to fix it.
Cavall, I appreciate your responses. Thank you again.
My version of LPofIB doesn't say anything about "singing time" nor minute per level. I'm not trying to nit pick here. My UM version (I don't care if it has been changed by the developers) as that is the version I am using at my table. It says "it (referring to the called creature) remains for up to one minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering." That tells me the effect is still ongoing otherwise it could stay up to any amount of time. My point is should you start another BP during the "negotiation period" [1 minute] the effect should end. Then why say "...up to 1 minute..."? Once that minute is up (may I point out or at any second during the minute)it is free to return from whence it came.
I have the book open to the page (for reference) every time I have posted about the Masterpieces. I apologize if my version of the masterpiece is not the latest and greatest version of the masterpiece. We are then discussing changes that I know nothing about, and that I want to know nothing about. Please don't ask me to read it again I have read it several dozen times looking for ways it could be used by my future bard. If the masterpiece has been changed by the developers I propose that is another mistake by them. I'm happy with the way masterpieces interact with bardic performance. Should the masterpiece require constant round per round then another BP can't be started without ending the masterpiece. This masterpiece seems totally useless to me using the Masterpiece without exception.
I ask everyone this question: Using just UM and CRB (when Masterpieces were first introduced) what are the most egregious uses of masterpieces used alongside of bardic performance? Assuming they are two different things using the same reserve of power. Inspire Courage and Triple Time at the same time doesn't sound like it is game breaking to me. If I am missing something here please enlighten me.
The reason I ask is because the intent of the Masterpieces is what I am looking for before the developers started spamming all of the current masterpieces we now have. I see how the game can be broken with these non-original Masterpieces.
I agree with Paul. Mark the designer was trying to give us a way it could work. Use exemptions per your own table's taste (so to speak). This would tell me there is no fix except for each prospective bard to talk it over with their own GM and see what they can expect of Masterpieces and bardic performance. This is exactly what I am doing.
Example of Legato Peice of the Infernal Bargain as I understand it. Bard A invests 11 skill ranks into his Perform (strings). He then sacrifices a 4th level spell. He then begins playing on his violin for ten minutes (assumption on my part: he uses a Bardic Performance round for each minute he plays {in case it gets interrupted part way through}). The playing stops. One or more called creature(s) appear. Bard A then has one minute to offer a reward and come up with a service (the deal). At any point Bard A is speaking the creature could go back from whence it came. Am I wrong?
Just because Bard A stopped playing doesn't mean the effect has ended. The creature(s) remaining for a minute would constitute part of the effect. What happens should the bard need to inspire courage during the minute? What happens should the Charisma check fail does he get another Charisma check or does he have to increase the reward/lessen the service? This already seems difficult enough to make work never mind having a BP is a MP is a BP.
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To help simplify what you're looking for let me directly quote the part BEFORE it says where it remains a minute per level.
"When you complete this performance..."
The performance is complete. Like the spell. Once the 10 minutes is done the performance is complete. Much like planar ally, it is complete as an "instant" with a 10 min "casting time". There are few other ways to read "complete".
Does this help clarify?
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Right, so that doesn't say anything about a minute per level but Cavall is still right about the word "complete".
You perform the Legato, you complete the Legato, an extraplanar creature appears and you can then bargain with it for 1 minute. Since the performance is completed there is nothing to prevent you from starting a new one even though you haven't finished bargaining with the extraplanar creature. Bargaining is not part of the performance. It sticks around for a minute because it was "intrigued by your performance," not because it has to stick around because you're still performing.
Cavall, I disagree with your clarification and the effect of the Masterpiece. Just because the performance ended does not mean the effect has ended.
The effect of the masterpiece is the calling and bargaining. The outsider is intrigued by "your performance" and remains for up to a minute. Regardless if the masterpiece has ended or not, a new one begun immediately ends the effect of the previous effect. Do you not agree the effect of the masterpiece is the calling and the intrigue of the outsider(s) sticking around for up to 1 minute?
It was the bard's ability to play the violin so well as to draw the attention of extraplanar creatures. See the Perform skill in the CRB pg 103. There is something similar there. However with this masterpiece there is no need to make the DC 30+ Perform check.
I ask again, using just the UM and CRB what is the most egregious use of a masterpiece and bardic performance being used at the same time?
Warped Savant,
Again, I have the book opened and can read the Masterpiece at my leisure I don't need it again. It has nothing to do with the completed performance but the effect of the performance. Why would it say "intrigue" and "1 minute" if that was not the effect of the bard's performance. Certainly it wasn't anything else that intrigued the outsider(s).
For example, stopping Inspire Courage with Lingering Performance continues the IC for two more rounds AFTER the performance has ended. That means the bard has stopped playing the violin, singing, keyboard or whatever performance the bard was using to initiate the IC in the first place. Now if on round two the bard starts another performance then Lingering Performance would no longer make IC linger. Do you not agree it is not the length of the performance but the effect that is important?
Cavall wrote: Feedback from a designer on this very page disagrees with that, Paul. They dont work at the same time. The issue now is how to fix it. Fair enough. I missed Marks post.
I'd still claim that there is going to be a huge amount of table variation since I doubt that many people read that far into a thread this long
Agreed. Or even use forums or found this thread on it.
Where is it stated that the effects of a Bardic Masterpiece end if you begin a new Performance?
Lingering Performance says "If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease." I don't see it saying anything similar for Masterpieces.
This is THE gray area.
"This section introduces masterpieces-specialized uses of the bardic performance class ability that allow a bard to do amazing things."
And also here: "In some cases, the bard can extend the duration of the masterpiece by expending additional rounds of bardic performance, just as if were any other use of the bardic performance."
If the Masterpiece can be extended with Lingering Performance then that would imply you can only have one Masterpiece in effect at one time.
However, my point has always been if worse case scenario (using just UM) is TT working with IC then by all means let the two coexist. It's not as if Cats and Dogs are going to be living together in the streets in perfect harmony. The world will not end. The game won't be broken. In other words bards won't take over the game.
I've tried to prove the mechanics of LPofIB are utter garbage. Should the performer get interrupted the effect fails. Should he start another effect while the bargaining is taking place the effect fails. I've also tried to show the called creature(s) can leave as soon as the Perform String has ended. To top it all off once the Charisma check is made and failed, again the effect is wasted. I'm not sure how to figure out the average odds of the Charisma check succeeding but my gut tells me there is a 20-40% chance the Charisma check will not succeed.
Legato Piece looks better than it is. Once it is put into practice the end result has a great chance of failure. So then why spend the 4th level spell, the 11 ranks in Perform (string instruments) and the time and Bardic Performance required to gain the effect? Have them run concurrently. Masterpieces are so specialized and the bard has become so great at performing the chosen musical piece he can use the regular (non-specialized) bardic performance at the same time.
I disagree with your basic premise.
"In some cases" doesn't mean that you can with Legato Piece. There's nothing in Legato Piece that indicates you could extend it.
And what your saying implies that even after you summon the thing, make all of your checks and it goes off to do what you want you can't use a bardic performance or the creature stops doing what you want it to. Otherwise you would consider the performance complete when the ally is summoned like the spell says and would therefore be able to use other performances. If you can't use a performance during the bargaining then why would you be able to use a performance while the ally is doing your task? Is there something to indicate that the performance is still happening after the performance has been completed? ("When you complete this performance, you call one or more outsiders...")
"Should the performer get interrupted the effect fails." Yes, just like when you're trying to cast a spell.
"Should he start another effect while the bargaining is taking place the effect fails." No, you haven't shown a rule that agrees with you. Why can't you start a bardic performance after Legato Piece is completed?
"I've also tried to show the called creature(s) can leave as soon as the Perform String has ended." The Masterpiece literally says it can't. "it remains for up to 1 minute to hear the service you are requesting and the payment you are offering."
"once the Charisma check is made and failed, again the effect is wasted." You mean spells sometimes fail? Hunh. Who knew?
"great chance of failure" You figure a 20-40% chance is a great chance at failure? Everything else is fairly easily controlled.
It's a bardic version of Lesser Planar Ally that requires a stat check rather than gold payment. You seem to think it should be something much better than what it is.
There is a difference between Summoning and Calling. They are not the same.
I understand Legato is not affected by Lingering Performance. Granting an extra 2 rounds to the bargaining period is not a game breaker, in my opinion. I'm merely suggesting if it were added the game won't be broken. My guess is the designers didn't take that close of look at having the effects of this Masterpiece linger for an extra 2 rounds.
Just because the performance is complete, aka the bard has stopped using whatever Perform check required doesn't mean the effect has ended. In fact the effect of the LPofIB states the called outsider is intrigued by the bard's playing. This would mean the effect of the Masterpiece is still "in effect" even though the bard has stopped playing the Masterpiece. He IS able to start another bardic performance. However if he does that then the effect of the previous bardic performance immediately ends. The effect of the LPofIB is in its write-up.
The called creature remains for up to one minute, implying it could stay for less than 1 minute but not more than 1 minute. It could start a conversation with the bard or be disgusted by the bard a mere mortal, that could play the Masterpiece so well as to attract its attention. The initial attitude is indifferent AND the creature is not necessarily associated with your deity.
My guess (20-40%) is the failure rate on the Charisma check not the entire Masterpiece. I could be wrong. It is just a guess.
I completely disagree with your second to last statement "Stat check rather than a gold payment". When I read the Masterpiece I read it as requiring both Charisma check AND "offered reward".
Comparing this Masterpiece to Planar Ally is difficult. Clerics don't have to give up anything to acquire the spell. They get all their spells for free. Bards have to invest 11 skill ranks AND a spell (4th level) or feat. Then use 10 rounds of bardic performance. After making the initial investment they still can have many things happen where the effect will not succeed in their desired result. Why make the initial investment AND the 10 rounds of bardic performance AND still have a cost of failure? The cost outweighs the benefits, in my opinion.
I'm still planning on taking this Masterpiece. I still plan on using it every chance I get. Why? Because I believe Masterpieces are specialized Bardic Performance and not subject to the rules associated with non-specialized performances. Keep in mind I've only studied the Masterpieces in UM.
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They arent playing.
There is no music.
IT IS COMPLETE.
You're trying to create a roadblock when one doesnt exist.
"They arent playing" I don't know what you mean by that. The performance is complete however the effect is everything the text describes. Look at TT the performance lasts for 1 minute the effect lasts for 1 hour. Begin another BP in that hour and TT ends. The same holds true with LPotIB.
The roadblock wasn't created by me.
The creature(s) are intrigued by your playing. You get to make a Charisma check because of the specialized nature of the Masterpiece. You enter into a bargain because of the same masterpiece.
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Xanatheus wrote: Look at TT the performance lasts for 1 minute the effect lasts for 1 hour. Begin another BP in that hour and TT ends. The same holds true with LPotIB. Where does it say in Legato that the effect ends if you begin a new Bardic Performance?
Where does it say that the effect of Triple Time ends if you begin a new Bardic Performance?
Both Cavall and Mark the designer agree the effects of a masterpiece end once another Bardic Performance is started. Go back up the page to August 17 for their replies.
In my opinion (not that, that amounts to anything), Masterpieces are specialized Bardic Performances and as a result have a unique relationship with other Bardic Performances. I'm going to push at my table that Masterpieces are not subject to the normal Bardic Performance rules. I ask again using just the UM and CRB what is the most egregious use of a Masterpiece and Bardic Performance at the same time? TT & IC?
I just noticed something about all of the Bardic Performances in the CRB. They all are round per round performances. Back then there was no Lingering Performance. Maybe Suggestion (and by extension Mass Suggestion) isn't a round per round BP. Tough to tell what "...does not count against a bard's total rounds per day..." means. I guess my question is after you Fascinate a target AND are successful with the Suggestion what are you able to actually suggest the target do. Does the Suggestion end when the Fascination ends? What happens if the suggested target no longer sees or hear's the bard?
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Xanatheus wrote: Both Cavall and Mark the designer agree the effects of a masterpiece end once another Bardic Performance is started. Go back up the page to August 17 for their replies. Ah, okay... so you want us to tell you why you're wrong using two books but you want to be able to us board responses to why you're right.
Got it. (And Mark even says that there are exceptions to if an effect would end or not.)
So let's just stick with Legato and try to define what it's "effect" is, shall we?
It's effect is to call an extraplanar creature to you. That is what happens when you complete the performance. Everything after that is telling you how you can interact with it and is not part of the effect.
If you want to make it useless you can argue that you can't do any bardic performances after the creature is summoned. Heck, you could even say that the creature doing something for you is an effect of the performance (because your performance and bargaining caused the creature to do something for you) so if you use another performance the creature stops doing what it agreed to do.
You can even argue that the creature can leave right away rather than that you have a minute to say what you want and make your roll.
That's how you're choosing to interpret the description of the ability.
I disagree with how you're reading it and I don't think there's anything I can say to change your mind so I'm done trying.
Hooray! We all agree!
As for your question, both Mark and I spoke about how some masterworks would be the only ones taken of you could combine the two already. Multiple people have. Gotta read the thread.
An example would be teamwork feats and inspire courage. Who wouldn't take this combo?
I haven't been keeping up with all of the Masterpieces. I have only good knowledge of UM and CRB Bardic Performances. My question refers to those two books because that is the extent of my Masterpiece knowledge not for any other purpose. UM is also when Masterpieces were first introduced (unless I am mistaken) at least it was when Masterpieces when they were still new. RAW and RAI may have been quite farther apart than they are now.
I do not want to discuss things (in this case Masterpieces) I know little about. I can understand why someone would want to combine a Masterpiece and IC or other BP but I have little knowledge of the remaining 40+(?) Masterpieces.
I also noticed Masterpieces in UM are the first BP that have a duration other than round by round. I don't think that was a coincidence. Did the designers (specific to and only these) of the UM Masterpieces intend that the Masterpieces with a duration be as ineffective as they appear? Clunky I know.
To which are you specifically referring?
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