Group Problems


Advice


Our group has a lot of problems. I think the real problem is that we don't have a dedicated DM. The two of us who are willing to have our issues.

First, there is me. I actually prefer to be a player. I tend to be the face of the party, and tend to act as our leader. Without me, the party seems to break into petty squabbles and sometimes results in characters drawing weapons on each other. Nothing really seems to get accomplished. A party NPC doesn't work because then it feels like leading the characters around by the nose. I like having a problem to overcome, but the DM has to present challenges.

The other DM's issues are that he doesn't really keep things organized. He also loves to lead us around by the nose, treating us like actors in a scripted adventure. I often times feel like we're just supporting character in some other hero's adventure due to all of the higher level NPC's we get led by. I want to play Batman, not Robin! Another issue that I have, and I seem to be the only one, is the constant cameos of past characters from long passed campaigns. Sure, seeing my favorite wizard appear as a contact or even a villain is fun on occasion, but every adventure/session gets too much. Feels like we're doing the same adventures.

Another large problem is our lack of teamwork. The game is based on teamwork and specialization. Everyone here seems to want to be a 1-person party. For example, our last party makeup was thus: Rogue, samurai, magus, and another magus.

A lot more, but maybe those can come later. I'm honestly starting to think it might be time for us to start looking for new players and/or break up the group. Well, find things besides RPG's.

I might have posted this on the wrong forum.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

This belongs on the Advice forum. I recommend either finding new players or suggesting to your group that you play the Adventure Card Game. It sounds like no one really wants to be the GM.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My husband's gaming group had this problem. Their current solution? They are running a home-based PFS campaign using modules and a rotating GM roster. So far, it's working out, and it has the advantage that the characters can be portable and taken to other PFS scenarios locally if the "campaign" doesn't work out long term.

There is a thread that I can find that had recommended "campaign paths" for PFS scenarios where you can follow different season subplots and actually get an ongoing storyline.

Also PFS scenarios seem to be more forgiving of unbalanced and odd parties rather than regular APs. This might work well for your group of friends.

EDITED to ADD:

Pathfinder Society Campaign Paths


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As you suggested yourself, it might be wise to find a another member or two (one of which can be your DM). But it may not come down to that. So let's try to avoid changing the roster if we can.

When I first started playing RPGs (AD&D), I was 7. My dad taught me, my best friend, and his half-brother. Later it was just the three of us, but as kids we had no idea what we were really doing and so our situation was the same (and stayed that way for awhile). It took time to learn what it takes to be a good DM/GM. I'll break down a few things down into a few small segments. I have more on my blog, but I feel like a jerk just telling people to go there for all my advice.

Disclaimer/Short Answer:
(If the rest of the post seems long, it boils down to these main points: Games should be fun, Games need (a) ref(s), Adventures need direction, Adventurers are the master characters. Also, most of the problems groups have can be sorted out through civil communication if discussed by reasonable people.)

You should not be a DM if you do not want to be one. Sure, it is fine if your group agrees to rotate so everyone has a chance to be a player or behind the screen. But if you do not enjoy being the DM and you aren't on a rotating basis, inform your group that you prefer to be a player.

If the other DM enjoys the role, allow him to do so, but discuss your concerns with him along with the rest of the group. Do not come out and tell him he is doing a bad job or that he is incompetent. If he is still learning the craft, he is going to make mistakes (actually, even expert DMs will still make mistakes, nobody is perfect).

By having a session, or part of a session set aside to discuss your group's concerns, you can all work together to clear the air. You can point him to many pre-made adventures until he gets the feel of what makes them fun for the players. Explain to him that a DM isn't just the rules god and creator of all things, he is an author. A storyteller. His master characters are the PCs, whether heroes, anti-heroes, or villians. Though he has control over most of the story, his master characters have a life of their own (many authors will talk about their characters like they are real people).

There is a really, really good meta-fiction novel, The People of Paper by Salvador Plascencia. Meta-fiction is a story that knows it is a story, basically, in case you were wondering. The author/narrator/character known as Saturn is writing a story and viewing his characters. The characters have minds of their own and attempt to thwart him from scrying on them. Really good book, kinda weird though. The point is, an RPG is like that. The DM or author of a pre-made adventure can have a story in mind and an idea of where it is going.

The DM should be reactive (most of the time) to what the players are doing and not have the players be reactive to NPCs doing the DM's wishes. PC's are the master characters and thus need to be the center stage. Sometimes, the PCs do get stuck and it is a good idea to railroad them, but don't let them get to dependent on that.

As I am getting a bit off tangent, again, speak to the other DM. If he enjoys the role, let him do it, but offer your concerns. Point him to other DMs, blogs, help guides (there is a Dungeon Master for Dummies book out there IIRC). At the end of each session, you can all sit back for a few and discuss the session. You can all discuss what you liked about the DMs part or disliked as well as the actions of the other players (and I am getting to that point).

A good DM should be able to get your group on track and make the team, well, a team. If you don't want to add a member to the group, you could think about finding a "guest" DM. Have someone come and do a few sessions and talk things out with the your group. Maybe someone else will jump at the chance to be a DM. If you have skype or other video chat options, you can even find a DM that lives anywhere in the world (pretty much) be your guest DM via video chat.

Now, then, without a good, dedicated DM, there are some things that can be done to get a group of quarterbacks to become a complete team. Pre-made adventures from trusted sources can do that. Good adventures will normally work best with a balanced group. Now, if you are running high stat min/maxed charaters with unbalanced homebrew rules, that advice doesn't work. So you have to step back. Run a low-powered game (15 point-buy, no stats lower than 7 after racial modifiers) and core only (or a couple of favorite other sources). Run these low powered characters through the pre-made adventures. If someone dies or the group finds out that you need a certain role filled, let everyone have a one-time free character switch, no questions asked, no penalties. Hopefully after a few sessions like this, you will start getting balanced (mostly) parties soon.

If the balanced party doesn't happen, well... have the NPC heal-bot that no one wants to be a deaf/mute that if forced to lead the party, leads them away from what they want/need.

Or another option...

Pre-gen characters. I know. I don't like forcing people to be classes or roles they do not want to be. DMs shouldn't do that either imo (regularly at least). However, to stress the importance of balanced parties (they can be a little off-balance), have some pre-gens with a couple of options for the different roles. Decide who will get to pick first this time, and then next time you go in reverse order or some other way to keep it fair. You can even take a low-prep, pre-made adventure and do the same thing to determine who has to be the DM that time.

Now, balanced parties and teamwork can be hard to get right, at first. And it can take vastly different approaches to learn both. I know you don't want to DM, so some of what I have said isn't helping you, but will help someone else. If you have a bunch of individuals that all are doing the same thing (but on their own), consider monsters and special abilities that make each of those individuals useless. Maybe even make your own. You can also have "tactical nights" where there is no adventure, only scenarios. In these scenarios, you work on having the group beat a scenario through certain types of feats of teamwork. Also they need certain abilities from different roles.

If none of that works, let me know. We can come up with a few more options before resorting to disbandment from each other or RPGs.


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You should just bite the bullet and GM for a bit. Help get them on track by running a proper game for your friends. After an adventure or two, see if the other guy will run a short adventure to give you a break.

You can also just find another group - whether it's at your local shop or by using an online VTT.

Best of luck getting it worked out.


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Believe it or not, our team worked much better when we started 10 years ago. One of us was attracted to wizards, one to monks, one to fighters, etc. Then we kept branching out and started having overlaps. Now the problem is that we don't communicate about characters. How does one say "Jim already has a cleric, so Joe can't make another."

We did a game once with completely randomized characters. Abilities were rolled, hit points rolled, and even sex, race, and class rolled from some NPC table. Everyone ended up playing a new character. That was entertaining.


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Random character games can be fun. I think your group just needs to work on communication skills. Maybe try having people make characters for two different roles each. That should help get most of the positions needed filled most of the time.


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First off, trying to fix the other GMs problems unless he is asking for help is likely to be counter productive at best. You really can't make someone else change.

So, assuming you are willing to GM, we can think about things that might help your games. One might be providing a bit more focus in character creation. Making sure that the characters are built with very compatible goals in mind might lower the PvP. In addition, a group character creation session where everyone talks about the roles the team will need and figures out how to cover them in a way that still leaves everyone a character they really like might help. Have the players focus on a team from the beginning and reinforce that with in character things that promote thinking as a team (belonging to an organization, having shared goals, perhaps even connected backgrounds) might help.

Obviously if none of this works and your group isn't having fun just do something else, but try if you want to try again, hopefully this will help.


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Hmm wrote:
My husband's gaming group had this problem. Their current solution? They are running a home-based PFS campaign using modules and a rotating GM roster.

Trying this out is highly recommendable. Partially because it might help toss ideas into the fold that weren't there before, and promote a bit of empathy when you ask your players "please don't do X". Your group's X being fight each other. Partially because it might tell you, after they've sat behind the screen, if someone in particular is a problem. And lastly, because it's a soft excuse to take a break from a GM'ing style you don't like without the burden of GM'ing regularly.


Thanks for all of the advice, everyone. I'll keep all of this in mind when we meet on Tuesday.

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