Knowledge skills aren't "used." The represent a character's knowledge. You can't learn something you don't know by thinking about it hard. You look at something and either you know about it or you don't. You don't think about something in terms of dungeoneering, then engineering, then geography. You just think about it.
It's up to you if you allow this behavior. I usually take down my player's skills and tell them to roll without telling them what they're rolling. I hate the idea of punishing a player because they decided to make a nature check when dungeoneering was called for.
Use the ONE most appropriate skill for the item being "known". There is a table for that in the Knowledge skill section. Using other skills to replace the one listed in the table is a house rule.
Do you as GM support this house rule? If yes, then let him keep doing it. If no, then put a stop to it.
Or simply do this:
If it is possible to identify minerals based on what tools people use to mine them, it would make the check much harder. For example, identifying a mineral is a simple DC 10 check using Knowledge(dungeoneering) but might be a DC 20 or 30 check using Knowledge(engineering) - that part is ALWAYS up to you to assign the DCs, so assign them appropriately. I would say identifying a mineral by the tools someone else used to mine it would be at least a DC20 or higher.
Then give the guy ONE knowledge check. One roll. Tell him that roll is applied to the BEST knowledge skill for the task. So in your example, you could say "You need a 10 on dungeoneering, a 20 on engineering, or a 15 on geography - now roll." If he gets an 8, he failed all three and doesn't know the mineral. If he gets an 18, you could say he passed the dungeoneering and geography roll but failed the engineering roll.
The only difference will be when he has different numbers of ranks in the skills. He might roll a 9 and end up with a 17 in dungeoneering, a 19 in engineering, and only a 14 in geography. Or if you're a nice guy (which I suggest you should be), let him make one roll against any applicable knowledge with whatever DCs you set, but he uses his highest skill modifier - this means he actually is rewarded for investing in so many skills.
Very soon, he will start to wonder why he should even bother listing the inappropriate knowledge skills if they automatically fail when the appropriate one fails, and if he doesn't ever need them when the appropriate one succeeds. And he will be correct, he doesn't need all of them. Just the best one.
I'd agree in that having the more Knowledge skills available gives a greater chance for someone to hear about something (thus Engineering or Dungeoneering to sort out ore), but only one roll to actually 'know' it barring some sort of actual change of circumstances (Dungeoneering roll failed, then in the next tunnel you find a magical copy of Orrie's Ore Oracle for +2 to Engineering). It's one thing to know, but if you don't know you don't know.
What has started to happen however, is that he's starting to throw multiple knowledges at a single event. After throwing 4 knowledge skill rolls at me, just to figure out what something was, I house ruled that only 1 skill can be used to figure something out.
I don't see anywhere in RAW where the player is supposed to be guessing what knowledge skill he's supposed to use.
If identifying something is knowledge (nature), then the DM should just tell him 'make a knowledge (nature) roll.
Sometimes we've run into a case were there are multiple roads to that knowledge. If our DM decides that it could be determined Knowledge: Planes, Arcana or Religion) Or (History, Geography or nature) then just let the player use ONE roll using whichever stat he is best at.
Just randomly throwing dice and guessing which stat should be used is a bit counterproductive. It eats up time, and eventually he'll guess anyway... Besides I don't look at a dog and wonder which class I took in high school tells me it's a dog... I learned a bunch of different things, it's all in my head, and when I see something that I recognize, I say 'Dog!'...
As has been mentioned, the player doesn't get to decide how many rolls or what type are allowed. That's for the GM to decide.. and, as mentioned, only one might be appropriate, especially for random sites. If you don't have something prepared for "THIS Knowledge result gets THAT information.." then there could well be nothing there to know.
It is *possible* the player is thinking of (or along the same lines as) the "Expanded Skill Uses" in Pathfinder Unchained. There are some additional skill "tasks" there that might be what he's looking for.. but, it is still all up to the GM.
I don't think you can Take 20 because failing a knowledge check actually has a penalty.
Agreed. You can only Take-20 on skills that allow you to retry the attempt. Knowledge skills cannot be retried.
What has started to happen however, is that he's starting to throw multiple knowledges at a single event. After throwing 4 knowledge skill rolls at me, just to figure out what something was, I house ruled that only 1 skill can be used to figure something out.
Tell him the house rule was because you were getting annoyed, and that you learned a better way here.
Now I'm trying to not be an jerk here, I don't even know if the RAW addresses this. I know each skill inherently only covers a section, but I asked him if he could even justify it and it got pretty sour.
Asking for justification is fine.
In the example he gave, he states approaching a mineral vein, and using knowledge dungeoneering to identify the mineral, using engineering to identify the tools used, using geography to identify what the region is known for in minerals. Or if a magical animal happened to feasted on a plant, rolling knowledge nature for the plant, and arcana for the animal which fed on it. Which isn't exactly bad sounding, but the problem is it seems like he's getting 3-5 chances to make this roll for the conclusion. I don't mind groups using their varied skills to come up, but this man is a 1 man knowledge tank. It's also not like I don't want to give up the specific bits of information, and even when it was just two rolls, I don't really mind the different lines of inquiry. It was just getting silly with the amount of rolls and what he was really after.
K(dungeoneering) can id a mineral.
K(engineering) can id class of minerals, but not exact.K(geography) can id minerals in the area, but not this one.
K(nature) can id an animal known to associate with a mineral, but not if this is that mineral.
K(arcane) can id it if it has a magical nature. Rare for minerals.
I feel like I shouldn't reward him for this behavior, it's really cheesy, and I don't want to get out of hand, but I really want to know what the rules state about this, as I couldn't find anything with google searches or anything else. In the end, what he's trying to do is use multiple skills to his advantage, spinning it how he likes to accomplish that fact. It slows down the game and it's tedious to deal with it all.
Ideas, Oppinions, and Information welcomed. :D
Simple house rule: each successive K roll is at -2 cumulative due to overlap. Keeps the number of rolls down. Keeps game speed up.
/cevah
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What is the mineral? If it's important what's the DC to know it? If he makes the check tell him. If it's not important make the DC 10 and tell him it's rock.
In the example he gave, he states approaching a mineral vein, and using knowledge dungeoneering to identify the mineral
, using engineering to identify the tools usedIf they are common tools, something on the mundane equipment list or similar, just tell him what it is. No one needs to make a knowledge check to identify a shovel or a pick. If it's something uncommon or rare you should already have a knowledge DC set and only the particular knowledge you set will be of any use. You TELL HIM WHICH knowledge check to make to identify the tools. In general, you describe the circumstances (the tools), he tells you what he'd like to do (identify the tools), and you tell him what he needs to do to succeed (make a knowlded(engineering) check.
, using geography to identify what the region is known for in minerals.If he rolls a 20 tell him "nothing in particular" unless the region is actually known for some particular mineral.
Or if a magical animal happened to feasted on a plant, rolling knowledge nature for the plant, and arcana for the animal which fed on it.If it's info the DM has set an appropriate DC. If it's info the DC hasn't even considered either set a very high DC, or make up some inconsequential info, or tell him there is nothing to learn.
Which isn't exactly bad sounding, but the problem is it seems like he's getting 3-5 chances to make this roll for the conclusion. I don't mind groups using their varied skills to come up, but this man is a 1 man knowledge tank. It's also not like I don't want to give up the specific bits of information, and even when it was just two rolls, I don't really mind the different lines of inquiry. It was just getting silly with the amount of rolls and what he was really after.MOST IMPORTANT, tell him he only gets one knowledge check per turn if he is going to be concentrating so hard on thinking. He has just taken 5 or 6 turns. Ok so here is how it goes. Player: I make Knowledge dungeneering check to id the mineral. GM: it's rock. Next player what do you do? When he says he wants to id tools tell him that's fine but he'll have to wait until his next turn.Let him know if he is slowing down play, monopolizing the GM's time, etc. Have some random monsters attack and when he rolls perception to avoid surprise tell him he has a -2 or -4 due to being distracted by his academic studies. It's also important that he understands that knowledge is a reactive roll and that if there is something to know you will give ask for the roll, or at least give him a hint or clue.
I feel like I shouldn't reward him for this behavior, it's really cheesy, and I don't want to get out of hand, but I really want to know what the rules state about this, as I couldn't find anything with google searches or anything else. In the end, what he's trying to do is use...
By the way, not rerolling Knowledge? That's not really a HOUSE rule as such.
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
Just in case he tries to rules lawyer it. One try, close discussion, move on. (And if he keeps rolling anyway, declare them all fails. Including the nat-25 he swears he rolled honestly on the die. Even if you witness that it did show a 25 on his d20.)
In the example he gave, he states approaching a mineral vein, and using knowledge dungeoneering to identify the mineral, using engineering to identify the tools used, using geography to identify what the region is known for in minerals.
If he's asking something basic, just assume he takes 10 on the knowledge and tell him what type of mineral it is. If he's asking something irrelevant, like the tools used or the type of plant the creature is eating, just say, "Who cares? Stop wasting everyone's time."