Underwhelmed with Unchained Monk


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I was shocked to see the Unchained Monk had weak will saves. Who in the world would think a monk should have weak will? Opinion: Bad

Giving monk weapon proficiencies in "monk" tagged weapons is a no-brainer a long time in coming. Opinion: Good

Style Strikes are an interesting addition and the best thing about the unchained version. Opinion: Good

Bonus Monk feats still only include scorpion style. I was sure they would add the ability to take the other style feats too. They had a chance to revise it and blew it. Opinion: Bad

Ki Pool now starts at 3rd which is nice. Opinion: Good

Ki Powers are interesting but I would rather get the power automatically and still be able to use ki differently every round to increase, speed, attack bonus, or number of attacks as needed. Opinion: Meh

If you are going to wrap class features into the Ki power menu, why leave other ones out? It should be all in the menu or none in the menu. Why couldn't things such as "Tongue of the Sun and the Moon" be optional too? Opinion: Meh

Flurry of blows now makes one less attack by level 20. Opinion: Bad.

Hit die has increased one step from d8 to d10. Two extra hit points are nice but not that big a deal. Opinion: Meh

Overall, I consider it an interesting variant but in no way a clear replacement for the standard monk.


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You missed:

Almost everything uses Ki.

The monk has a pitiful Ki pool at lower levels.

These two are problems.


Snowblind wrote:

You missed:

Almost everything uses Ki.

The monk has a pitiful Ki pool at lower levels.

These two are problems.

Good point.

Sovereign Court

The general consensus is that while it's superior to the Core monk, you can make a somewhat better one with archetype combo-ing.

There was a really long thread discussing it right after it came out.

I will point out - while the flurry ends up with 1 less attack - it's considerably more accurate and overall better. Though admittedly, Sohei will be more accurate by mid levels.


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Yeah, the biggest issue the Unchained Monk has is that all his passive defense abilities became "spend ki to gain this benefit for one minute."


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And the bad will save.

A class who's main ability (arguably) is Wisdom, whose flavor is all about controlling themselves, mentally and physically, has a weak Will save?

I don't get it.


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I love it. I made a character and he has been great.

All complaints are exaggerated and probably the result of lack of testing.

1. The bad will save isn't noticed. You generally invest in Wisdom enough to have a good save, and then you have the extra feats to get Iron Will on top of it. It's a non issue.

2. Scorpion Style IS NOT A STYLE FEAT. It's still not a good feat, but who cares? If people are saying the Monk should have style feats as bonus feats... You don't need them. You have the feats to take them naturally as you level.

3. Ki Powers are a great addition. There should be more variety, but you have the whole Qingqong monk list to pick from, so until they release more, I think we are fine.

4. Whoever wishes they had more attacks but a -2 penalty on all of them, plus a -5 and a -10 penalty slapped on two of those attacks... Clearly has not ever played a Monk (because they'd know how shitty those were) or an Unchained Monk (because they can't tell how great the new flurry is). That comment about having less attacks made me retch a little, it's that bad.

5. D10 over D8 changes things. Thanks to Evasion, the ideal Monk now has 12 CON rather than 16. It didn't make the Monk less MAD, but it alleviated CON dependency greatly.


I'd recommend looking at the Unchaining the Unchained Monk thread.

Scarab Sages

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As for the low KI points, My Dwarf started with an 18 wis, and is at 20 with a headband. I had 5 ki at third level, and now have 9 ki points at 8th level. I regularly use Barkskin and extra attacks, while saving enough for an emergency gaseous form or restoration if I get hit with something nasty. I have never felt I couldn't use a ki point if I needed one. This also helps cover the reduced will save.


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Not to mention Humans have a good FCB and there's always the Honored Fist of the Society trait.

137ben wrote:
I'd recommend looking at the Unchaining the Unchained Monk thread.

I recommend playing the class in a game.


Secret Wizard wrote:
I recommend playing the class in a game.

I've seen it played in a game. It's not really better than the original mechanic considering the old monk had archetypes that surpass the unchained monk.


Milo v3 wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
I recommend playing the class in a game.
I've seen it played in a game. It's not really better than the original mechanic considering the old monk had archetypes that surpass the unchained monk.

1. My experience varies from yours, perhaps that player did not look well upon build options (for example, Pummeling Style is more of a trap on UnMonks, while it was amazing for normal Monks).

2. Those archetypes you mention (which I assume are Zen Archer, Sohei and Sensei) are nice and still have a niche, but in no way they deliver the fantasy players come look for in Monks. Furthermore, I'd say they can be better than the UnMonk in their own niches, but they are not a better overall Monk (punch stuff to kill it) than the UnMonk. The Sohei, the closest one to taking that title, relies desperately on Pummeling Style, and for that reason, cannot dream of surpassing the output of the UnMonk, who has full liberty to pounce AND to take Dragon Ferocity.

If by any chance you meant the Master of Many Styles, we all know that isn't a class as much as it is a dip on the side for everyone, completely divorced from the actual concept of monkhood in all but original flavor.


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Secret Wizard wrote:

I love it. I made a character and he has been great.

All complaints are exaggerated and probably the result of lack of testing.

1. The bad will save isn't noticed. You generally invest in Wisdom enough to have a good save, and then you have the extra feats to get Iron Will on top of it. It's a non issue.

2. Scorpion Style IS NOT A STYLE FEAT. It's still not a good feat, but who cares? If people are saying the Monk should have style feats as bonus feats... You don't need them. You have the feats to take them naturally as you level.

3. Ki Powers are a great addition. There should be more variety, but you have the whole Qingqong monk list to pick from, so until they release more, I think we are fine.

4. Whoever wishes they had more attacks but a -2 penalty on all of them, plus a -5 and a -10 penalty slapped on two of those attacks... Clearly has not ever played a Monk (because they'd know how s$$&ty those were) or an Unchained Monk (because they can't tell how great the new flurry is). That comment about having less attacks made me retch a little, it's that bad.

5. D10 over D8 changes things. Thanks to Evasion, the ideal Monk now has 12 CON rather than 16. It didn't make the Monk less MAD, but it alleviated CON dependency greatly.

Okay, on the first point, you're talking about a difference of anywhere from 2 to 6 points on your Will save mod. I've seen saves in games I've run and played in fail by that or less all the time. It's NOT a negligible difference, even on a potentially Wisdom-heavy class

Second, class features are meant to form a package that creates a specific character concept/archetype. Fighter's is "all purpose weapons master and versatile combatat", for example, it's why they get weapon training and all the bonus combat feats. They have nothing specific aligned towards beating things with their fists. Monks, on the other hand are all about said method of slaying their enemies...yet their bonus feats cannot be used to take style feats while fighter's can. That's a major screw-up in terms of class design and flavor. Saying "they can use their normal feats for it" completely misses the point and ignores what is a break in overall design philosophy that almost every single class in the game since the CRB has followed.

Third, the problem with Quinggong in the new monk is that you used to be able to trade out which features you wanted and which you didn't. You don't have that option now. If my aasimar monk wants to put her FCB into linguistics and ditch Tongue of the Sun and Moon to pick up a quinggong power, as an unchained monk she can't. That's a lack of flexibility and choice that is a drastic step backwards from prior monk options. There's also the problem of taking away two of the default uses for a monk and making them ki powers you have to take. There's no reason those ki powers couldn't have just been upgrades to the existing ki pool talent, but Paizo made this poor design choice anyways. Lastly, the talents themselves are, in some cases, essentially either theft from the monk as it once worked or locking somewhat useful options behind more prereqs/chains like they do with combat feats. Look at Diamond Body, for example, monks used to just be outright immune to poison at higher levels, but the unchained one has to pay ki to remove just one effect AFTER it's affected him at least once. If you want the option to walk on water AND thin branches like a ninja might, that's two ki powers instead of one and one requires a prereq no-one cares about. Then there's Quivering Palm, which got nerfed for seemingly no reason. Don't get me wrong, lots of nice powers in that list, but just as many that are uninspired, taking away options the base monk had already, or locked behind unnecessary chains (in Pathfinder Unchained, ironically enough).

Fourth, this one I actually agree with but your attitude needs work. Seriously, 'retch'? Calm down, maybe take a shot of something strong, relax.

Fifth, one extra hit point per level, or basically having Toughness, does not a major difference in Con make. I'm actually VERY curious who would ever make a monk with a starting 16, because yikes. Seriously, unless you choose a race with that as a stat-bump, that means you have basically eff-all for points to spend in Wisdom and Strength, or Dexterity if you're gonna go all finesse-flavored. And why is Evasion a factor here? In front-line combat, the monk is gonna take most of their damage from attack rolls by the enemy, not AoE effects. Their AC is good, yes, but it's not good enough to evade everything that comes their way. Out of the half dozen APs we've run and more custom campaigns in the past eight or so years using PF, I think I can count on one hand the number of times the enemy caster has had a Selective metamagic option available to them to avoid hitting their allies. A lot of the time, those AoE options they DO end up using are Fort or Will saves (unholy blight / blasphemy, for example).

Secret Wizard wrote:
If by any chance you meant the Master of Many Styles, we all know that isn't a class as much as it is a dip on the side for everyone, completely divorced from the actual concept of monkhood in all but original flavor.

I'm going to pretend that is sarcasm because otherwise...well, wow, that's all. Just wow.

Sovereign Court

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Secret Wizard wrote:

The Sohei, the closest one to taking that title, relies desperately on Pummeling Style, and for that reason, cannot dream of surpassing the output of the UnMonk, who has full liberty to pounce AND to take Dragon Ferocity.

If you're going STR monk - sure. But in my opinion DEX is the way to go. You lose a bit of DPR (though not much as you can afford to dump STR, whereas the STR monk needs decent DEX), but your defenses are far and away better than a STR monk's, not to mention jacked up initiative is nice.

A STR monk's AC is a bit better than most THW martials, a bit behind sword & board - drawing equal with it at higher levels. A DEX monk's AC is the best in the game by a fair margin by about level 4. (Especially since the Wild armor errata keeps druids from abusing it and being a competitor for the title at high levels.)


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

The Sohei, the closest one to taking that title, relies desperately on Pummeling Style, and for that reason, cannot dream of surpassing the output of the UnMonk, who has full liberty to pounce AND to take Dragon Ferocity.

If you're going STR monk - sure. But in my opinion DEX is the way to go. You lose a bit of DPR (though not much as you can afford to dump STR, whereas the STR monk needs decent DEX), but your defenses are far and away better than a STR monk's, not to mention jacked up initiative is nice.

A STR monk's AC is a bit better than most THW martials, a bit behind sword & board - drawing equal with it at higher levels. A DEX monk's AC is the best in the game by a fair margin by about level 4. (Especially since the Wild armor errata keeps druids from abusing it and being a competitor for the title at high levels.)

Not to mention the Sohei can run just fine as a weapon monk instead of an unarmed one. my favorite Sohei didn't use his fists, he was a mounted combat specialist who hit things with a nodachi while riding around on a Dire Wolf.

Granted, at that point you're getting a bit far from "classic" monk flavor.


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Monk Of the Seven Winds is actually pretty cool for mobile monks.

I wish the Unchained wasnt so damn ki hungry...

Liberty's Edge

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Have to say UnMonk makes a much better beatstick at low levels, but I'm not fond of the D10 for will save trade. Considering trading up to D10 was the equivalent of one feat, and trading down to bad will can't be recovered by any number of feats. Then making ki powers all cost ki just goes to reinforce the beatstick mentality. At low level, you're not playing the class for any reason but to swing a 7 branched sword for d10+1.5str+1.5PA damage numerous times a round. It's only at higher level that you even start feeling like a monk again.

It's not a bad class, just not a straight improvement over the classic monk like people hoped it would be.


bigrig107 wrote:

And the bad will save.

A class who's main ability (arguably) is Wisdom, whose flavor is all about controlling themselves, mentally and physically, has a weak Will save?

I don't get it.

It's one of those annoying cases (I think the following has been put somewhere) that the devs consider full BAB and three good saves too much.

Though I'd counter a main ability being the one that your weakest save is on isn't that bad. Will and Wisdom are overlapping, yet distinct things, so there's perhaps ground one could argue it, but I won't because the lion's part of your post covers the weirdness really.

Generally: Unchained Monk's biggest problem is not, by necessity, being set to take old archetypes (which added a lot to the Monk, just by existing in such number). This is easily worked through with a few minutes of reading.

Excepting Ki Mystic. Still don't know which way round to set that archetype (he says, fishing).


Cerberus Seven wrote:

Okay, on the first point, you're talking about a difference of anywhere from 2 to 6 points on your Will save mod. I've seen saves in games I've run and played in fail by that or less all the time. It's NOT a negligible difference, even on a potentially Wisdom-heavy class

Second, class features are meant to form a package that creates a specific character concept/archetype. Fighter's is "all purpose weapons master and versatile combatat", for example, it's why they get weapon training and all the bonus combat feats. They have nothing specific aligned towards beating things with their fists. Monks, on the other hand are all about said method of slaying their enemies...yet their bonus feats cannot be used to take style feats while fighter's can. That's a major screw-up in terms of class design and flavor. Saying "they can use their normal feats for it" completely misses the point and ignores what is a break in overall design philosophy that almost every single class in the game since the CRB has followed.

Third, the problem with Quinggong in the new monk is that you used to be able to trade out which features you wanted and which you didn't. You don't have that option now. If my aasimar monk wants to put her FCB into linguistics and ditch Tongue of the Sun and Moon to pick up a quinggong power, as an unchained monk she can't. That's a lack of flexibility and choice that is a drastic step backwards from prior monk options. There's also the problem of taking away two of the default uses for a monk and making them ki powers you have to take. There's no reason those ki powers couldn't have just been upgrades to the existing ki pool talent, but Paizo made this poor design choice anyways. Lastly, the talents themselves are, in some cases, essentially either theft from the monk as it once worked or locking somewhat useful options behind more prereqs/chains like they do with combat feats. Look at Diamond Body, for example, monks used to just be outright immune to poison at higher levels, but the unchained one has to pay ki to remove just one effect AFTER it's affected him at least once. If you want the option to walk on water AND thin branches like a ninja might, that's two ki powers instead of one and one requires a prereq no-one cares about. Then there's Quivering Palm, which got nerfed for seemingly no reason. Don't get me wrong, lots of nice powers in that list, but just as many that are uninspired, taking away options the base monk had already, or locked behind unnecessary chains (in Pathfinder Unchained, ironically enough).

Fourth, this one I actually agree with but your attitude needs work. Seriously, 'retch'? Calm down, maybe take a shot of something strong, relax.

Fifth, one extra hit point per level, or basically having Toughness, does not a major difference in Con make. I'm actually VERY curious who would ever make a monk with a starting 16, because yikes. Seriously, unless you choose a race with that as a stat-bump, that means you have basically eff-all for points to spend in Wisdom and Strength, or Dexterity if you're gonna go all finesse-flavored. And why is Evasion a factor here? In front-line combat, the monk is gonna take most of their damage from attack rolls by the enemy, not AoE effects. Their AC is good, yes, but it's not good enough to evade everything that comes their way. Out of the half dozen APs we've run and more custom campaigns in the past eight or so years using PF, I think I can count on one hand the number of times the enemy caster has had a Selective metamagic option available to them to avoid hitting their allies. A lot of the time, those AoE options they DO end up using are Fort or Will saves (unholy blight / blasphemy, for example).

I'm going to pretend that is sarcasm because otherwise...well, wow, that's all. Just wow

1. You are wrong. I made UnMonks, I can post builds, you can see their Will saves. I agree they are not as high as normal Monks. I disagree in that they are anywhere low -- plus you also have enough feat-space to boost them further if you so wanted.

Not to mention there's a new feat that improves Still Mind even further.

2. Your first point about Monks needing style feats as bonus feats is not solid. Paladins don't need bonus combat feats to get Power Attack. Greater Mercy, etc. They have enough natural feats in their progression to get all the feats they need. Similarly, Fighters need a lot of extra feats to compete due to how their class is supposed to function. And lastly, it's pretty much a given that Sorcerer's will need Metamagic and Spell Focus feats that are rarely in their Bonus Bloodline Feat list.
The UnMonk has the feat budget to take style feats, and can use their bonus feats to compensate for the feats they spend on those. You only ever need 3 style feats, and there's several great builds with 2 or 3 feats free around levels 1, 7 and 13...
Sure, having Style Feats would be cool, but it would also defeat the purpose of styles themselves. If any Monk can take Mantis Style without training in Heal, it removes the whole concept of the anatomy expert.

TLDR: Just because Wizards can't use their Bonus Feats to pick up Spell Mastery doesn't mean Wizard Bonus Feats are absolute trash and the class is broken. They have the free slots to take whatever they want.

3. You are being factitious, right? HAVING FREE KI POWERS EVERY TWO LEVELS ALLOWS YOU TO HAVE QINGQONG POWER EVERY ODD LEVEL, NOW YOU CAN HAVE TONGUE + THE POWER. THIS IS A POWER BOOST HOWEVER YOU LOOK AT IT.
You are complaining that before you could take off the ham from your sandwich to get double cheese, and now people just offer double cheese for free.

You are also being blind to the fact that Ki Powers open up the gate for NEW Ki Powers, allowing for Paizo to release better options if the current ones are lacking...
This removes the necessity of MANDATORY archetypes.

I agree you have a point in that many powers aren't outright as strong as they were before... but the added versatility compensates for it greatly.

4. I stopped reading after "I agree".

5. You get tossed Unholy Blights and Blasphemies as much as dragon breaths. Reflex saves are still important for frontliners. The Paladin can act very high and mighty until an Entangle gets plopped. Then the Monk is laughing out loud, being even Acrobatic enough to jump off the AOE area even if they failed the save.

Also, for the 2H build, you have enough AC to dodge EVERYTHING. Literally EVERYTHING as long as you are not fighting a CR+4 enemy or getting flanked + debuffed or grappled... but then again, you have the mobility to prevent flanking, the CMD to avoid combat maneuvers, and the saves to avoid debuffing of all kinds.

6. Not being sarcastic. MOMS is only ever used for dips. It's a powerful archetype, but you can tell that Paizo is not happy with how it turned out.

Scarab Sages

Yeah. Single Class MOMS is a trap. Fuse Style does not make up for the loss of Flurry. 3/4 BAB with no accuracy enhancers, and all of the best style tricks like a Panther/Snake AoO build will only be useable once an encounter, because no one intelligent will fall for taking the AoOs you provoke after you hit them with it once.


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Secret Wizard wrote:

1. You are wrong. I made UnMonks, I can post builds, you can see their Will saves. I agree they are not as high as normal Monks. I disagree in that they are anywhere low -- plus you also have enough feat-space to boost them further if you so wanted.

Not to mention there's a new feat that improves Still Mind even further.

I never said they were low, that's not the issue. Not low =/= negligible. Furthermore, there's simply no reason for the monk to lose this positive aspect of the class conceptually. If anything, the addition of new class abilities in unchained has reinforced the idea of a monk being a supernaturally aware and resilient warrior in body, mind, and spirit. Taking away the PRIMARY part of the class that spoke to their mental resiliency for balance reasons is more than just a little silly.

Wasn't aware of the feat, whatever it is. Would appreciate a link to it, as I haven't found it yet.

Secret Wizard wrote:

2. Your first point about Monks needing style feats as bonus feats is not solid. Paladins don't need...

>>>TLDR: Just because Wizards can't use their Bonus Feats to pick up Spell Mastery doesn't mean Wizard Bonus Feats are absolute trash and the class is broken. They have the free slots to take whatever they want.

I never said monk bonus feats are trash. In fact, I don't think you understand any of what I said. Let me try this another way. Fighters, cavaliers and samurai, brawlers, and many other front-line combatant classes get bonus combat feats. Why? It's part of their class concept, picking up new tricks to use in a fight. Wizards get bonus meta-magic or item creation feats because that's part of their concept, they're masters of magic and putting it to use in new and useful ways. Rangers train in a certain area to attain mastery of it, getting lots of feat options that are thematically appropriate (this has expanded quite a lot since the CRB). The list goes on. Now, eight of the monk's seventeen bonus feats give them ways to improve upon their already established mastery of unarmed combat, but for some reason style feats, which are conceptually all about hand-to-hand combat, haven't been added as viable options. They've done so with other feats, like Ki Throw and it's improved version, plus a few others, just not style feats for some reason. That means a fighter or cavalier, who aren't focused on unarmed combat, can use their class-concept-oriented bonus feats to pick up an unarmed fighting technique like Panther Style while the monk, who is all about unarmed combat can't. It's more than a little ridiculous.

Furthermore, if you only ever need to take 3 style feats for one whole chain, why does Combat Style Master exist?
And I'm sorry, but the idea that skipping a few skill rank prereqs ruins the idea of the feat is just ludicrous. You don't have to take any of the prereq feats to pick up Spring Attack, Snatch Arrows, or Medusa's Wrath with your bonus feats either. Does that ruin the concept of those as well? All they have to do is just make style feats available using the monks bonus feats if they would otherwise qualify for them and everyone would be happy.

Secret Wizard wrote:

3. You are being factitious, right? HAVING FREE KI POWERS EVERY TWO LEVELS ALLOWS YOU TO HAVE QINGQONG POWER EVERY ODD LEVEL, NOW YOU CAN HAVE TONGUE + THE POWER. THIS IS A POWER BOOST HOWEVER YOU LOOK AT IT.

You are complaining that before you could take off the ham from your sandwich to get double cheese, and now people just offer double cheese for free.

You are also being blind to the fact that Ki Powers open up the gate for NEW Ki Powers, allowing for Paizo to release better options if the current ones are lacking...
This removes the necessity of MANDATORY archetypes.

I agree you have a point in that many powers aren't outright as strong as they were before... but the added versatility compensates for it greatly.

Okay, first off, I believe (and people should correct me on this if I'm wrong) that official ruling has come down stating that if you want qinggong powers on an unchained monk, they go through the ki powers section, NOT by trading out class features. Same source as to how monk archetypes simply don't work with the new version. There was a lot of discussion around this class when it came out, so I may have misread something from Mark when it happened.

Second, the unchained monk doesn't make it any easier for Paizo to create new ki powers. A new hard-back could simply have a section labelled "New qinggong powers" and that would work. That was a very strange point on your part, unless you're privy to some kind of Paizo trade-secrets involving how they're allowed to print new material for existing classes of something.
Lastly, the problem with your 'added versatility' statement is that we don't know how the two match up overall because they're not coming from the same place. Unmonks gets 9 ki powers and keeps some things like Purity of Body and Timeless Body but loses 2/3s of the uses of the base ki pool (which are really damned useful). They get lots of new options, but some of those options are the same in name but worse in function compared to the old ones. Gauging whether the unmonk is better than the old in terms of ki powers is really going to come down to individual preference.

Secret Wizard wrote:

5. You get tossed Unholy Blights and Blasphemies as much as dragon breaths. Reflex saves are still important for frontliners. The Paladin can act very high and mighty until an Entangle gets plopped. Then the Monk is laughing out loud, being even Acrobatic enough to jump off the AOE area even if they failed the save.

Also, for the 2H build, you have enough AC to dodge EVERYTHING. Literally EVERYTHING as long as you are not fighting a CR+4 enemy or getting flanked + debuffed or grappled... but then again, you have the mobility to prevent flanking, the CMD to avoid combat maneuvers, and the saves to avoid debuffing of all kinds.

What are you talking about? Entangle is already save negates. Since entangle isn't a damaging spell, improved evasion doesn't apply here. Plus, at levels where improved evasion comes into play, the paladin should have enough of a Charisma mod to only fail on a natural 1. And what is this about a 2-handed build? When did that become part of conversation?

I'm pretty sure a monk will only eclipse a sword & board fighter's AC by a few points at higher levels. That doesn't quite equate to "DODGE ALL THE THINGS". Plus, at those higher levels, their movement bonus being enhancement typed and therefore not stacking with haste or blessing of fervor or boots of speed means that most of the time the fighter or ranger or samurai is gonna be about as fast on the tactical scale.

Secret Wizard wrote:
6. Not being sarcastic. MOMS is only ever used for dips. It's a powerful archetype, but you can tell that Paizo is not happy with how it turned out.

False. For starters, it is potentially one of the only archetypes to still work with the new monk class. Plus, you can do some amazing things with combined stances, like getting up to three retaliatory AoOs when an opponent misses you in combat. Or getting a +18 damage mod with Power Attack by taking only a -1 penalty to attack rolls. Also, they weren't happy with it because Crane Wing was a thing and it ruined many poorly planned PFS fights against single large creatures with few ways to get multiple attacks. That is the SOLE REASON anyone could say Paizo is unhappy about that, and that's more a problem with Crane Wing than anything else.


I can understand that some things (no style feats as bonus feats, low Will save) can be unappealing at first glance.

I'm trying to say that the UnMonk is still an amazing class and you have a ton of different builds you can make with it, and you'll be a better class without having to turn to niche builds like the MOMS Panther Snake Thing or the Zen Archer.

The UnMonk will always be better at "I want to use this style and be good at it." than the regular Monk.

Also, I wasn't exaggerating when I said the UnMonk can get to the "cannot be touched" levels of AC while maintaining good damage output.

I can back this all up with builds if you want.

Sovereign Court

Cerberus Seven wrote:
I'm pretty sure a monk will only eclipse a sword & board fighter's AC by a few points at higher levels. That doesn't quite equate to "DODGE ALL THE THINGS".

Just have to step in and say that that's only true for STR monks. DEX monks match a standard sword & board as soon as they can afford a wand of Mage Armor, and match the most defensive minded of them by 4 when they get +1 inherent and grab Barkskin, leaving them in the dust shortly thereafter.

STR monks have a similar relationship with most THW martials - only beating well built sword & board at higher levels.

Cerberus Seven wrote:
False. For starters, it is potentially one of the only archetypes to still work with the new monk class.

Except that the book specifically said that it doesn't work.

Gotta back up Secret Wizard here though - MoMS is a stupidly amazing dip but sucks as a solo class. Of course it'd work decently with Umonk - with actual full BAB giving up flurry doesn't hurt nearly as much. But again - the rules disallow it - so it's moot.


Dotting for later comment.

MA


As someone who played 7 levels of master of many style monk in PFS, I can say that I never saw a reason to dip into anything else. crane style and snake style were a great combo that I saw a lot of use in (although after the changes to crane style, I would still play that character and probably go snake plus panther style). I can see why some people would certainly want to dip the class, but then again monk has the "dip" class problem that a lot of core classes do (i.e. people are more likely to dip a core class then stay in the class).

Then again, I almost never multiclass.

darth_borehd wrote:
Flurry of blows now makes one less attack by level 20. Opinion: Bad.

I assume that you missed the fact that flurry now gives you two attacks at your highest bonus with no penalty?

[we now return you to your regularly scheduled "monks suck!" debate]


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The fact that it's limited in how many times per day you can do things like add a fourth/fifth/sixth attack to your full attack or suddenly pretend you have a +2 Heavy Shield on to go with your Barkskin and bonus AC should hardly come as a surprise.

Anyhow, as someone who loves to find solid ways to make dipping a single level of Monk for the flurry and wisdom AC work, I'll say that the Unchained Monk is a damn sweet dip. No longer trading off ab and strength to gain an extra attack is really, really powerful.


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BadBird wrote:

The fact that it's limited in how many times per day you can do things like add a fourth/fifth/sixth attack to your full attack or suddenly pretend you have a +2 Heavy Shield on to go with your Barkskin and bonus AC should hardly come as a surprise.

Anyhow, as someone who loves to find solid ways to make dipping a single level of Monk for the flurry and wisdom AC work, I'll say that the Unchained Monk is a damn sweet dip. No longer trading off ab and strength to gain an extra attack is really, really powerful.

The problem with it being limited is that it is limited to the point where many of the options are virtually never used. A level 8 monk with 14 starting wisdom and a +2 headband has 7 Ki points. If they want to keep DR penetration on their fists, that's 6 points. Barkskin(pretty much standard for a Umonk)...5 points. 4 if you want a backup use. So there are 2 other Ki powers and a bonus attack competing for 4 ki points. If the monk forgets about their other Ki powers and only uses the bonus attack feature, they get about 1 extra swing per combat. That's...pretty pathetic. Paladins can smite almost as much as that, and Smite Evil>>>>>>1 extra swing. God forbid if the monk actually wants to do things like not care about a fear effect or bump up AC a bit.

Dipping is kinda neither here nor there. In fact, if the best thing you can say about a class/archetype is how good it is as a dip, then that is a fair sign that something is seriously defective.


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The Unchained Monk is a decent beat-stick... And that's it. No more, no less.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lemmy wrote:
The Unchained Monk is a decent beat-stick... And that's it. No more, no less.

So, basically what the old Monk was. Only better.


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magnuskn wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
The Unchained Monk is a decent beat-stick... And that's it. No more, no less.
So, basically what the old Monk was. Only better.

Well... I wouldn't call the old Monk "decent", but yeah... Not that being better than the core Monk means much... And it did lose a bunch stuff for no reason.


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I will say that, while there ar worthy comparisons between sohei and unmonk... it still has enough room to argue that it brings up another question- did we "NEED" unmonk?

Sohei monk and brawler both cover the same general territory as unmonk. Better beatstick, still plenty of options. And with pummeling style providing clustershot and pseudo pounce, they were in no way hurting.

Did we need to go out of our way for a complete redesign of the class?

I mean...I have the same complaint about unrogue since we got slayer.

Of the material provided by unchained...we got two sets of nerfs (to a greater or lesser extent), and two classes that fixed problems that were already fixed pretty well by the last book.

Now, if unchained could, in any way, work with current monk archetypes, then there would be a very, very different discussion here. Unchained monk is an upgrade of core monk. If that upgrade carried over to the archetypes, then no one would complain, since it would be an upgrade to already decent options. But it didn't carry over. That just further flooded the field with options that were somewhat close to equal.


lemeres wrote:
Unchained monk is an upgrade of core monk.

Highly debatable


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My primary issue with the unchained monk is that it Wasn't a complete redesign of the class. It was minor tweaks here and there, not enough changes to actually seem like a new class, but so many tiny tweaks that it is incompatible with all the archetypes...


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Entryhazard wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Unchained monk is an upgrade of core monk.
Highly debatable

Yeah, I'm not exactly in love with it either... but if it doesn't even fill that role to some extent, then why the hell would be bother to talk about it?

I mostly say that since it works as something as a basis for debate between those that love the new design and those that find problems since it throws out a lot of previous archetypes and such.

I will agree that the changes from core monk have their own problems- the parts where it is debatable often are the parts where you ask yourself 'why am I not playing a brawler?' (the will save nerf is the thing that most comes to mind there).


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Chained Monk for reference

As far as I can tell Chained Monk + splat is better than the Unchained Monk. Sure the unchained monk hits harder, but so what? The defenses are weaker which gut the point of playing a monk. Unchained Monk looks like a mystic brawler. Ki points instead of spont feats.


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No one here played the class. Whoever said he was "shocked" the unchained monk had low will saves could be a talking head in a 24 hour news network.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
No one here played the class.

It's good to know that this Wizard is fully using those divination spells... He obviously knows what classes everyone is playing!

Secret Wizard wrote:
Whoever said he was "shocked" the unchained monk had low will saves could be a talking head in a 24 hour news network.

How surprising a change is has literally zero effect on whether or not it was a good change.


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The Monk naturally having a weaker Will save than the Bard is silly to me


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But you dont see!!!

We cant let the monk have TOO MANY nice things! Martial players might get the wrong idea and think they are actually noticed now!

/Sarcasm


Entryhazard wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Unchained monk is an upgrade of core monk.
Highly debatable

A debate easily avoided/broken by allowing the archetypes for the core monk to interact with the unchained monk.

Sadly not a PFS option. But since the Unchained Monk is designed to obsolete the Core Monk, I'd say at minimum it does achieve what it is intended to: Two more attacks at full BAB>3 more attacks at -2, -7, and -12. Especially when the former can enjoy 1-1/2 strength to damage.


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Entryhazard wrote:
The Monk naturally having a weaker Will save than the Bard is silly to me

Ah, but anyone can sit around going OHHHMMM all day.

No, to be a DANCER requires real dedication and will power!

*begins twerking*

Sovereign Court

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Entryhazard wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Unchained monk is an upgrade of core monk.
Highly debatable

If by Core monk they mean no archetypes - than yes. Without a doubt.

If with archetype mixing - I'd give it to old monk by a nose so long as the player knows what he's doing. But - I like defensive characters - so take it with that grain of salt. Umonk wins on offense until a Sohei grabs Gloves of Dueling. and Sohei gives up fast movement - and that makes me sad.


lemeres wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
The Monk naturally having a weaker Will save than the Bard is silly to me

Ah, but anyone can sit around going OHHHMMM all day.

No, to be a DANCER requires real dedication and will power!

*begins twerking*

It's actually surviving the criticism that they can't/shouldn't play/sing/dance.

Or is that the party's will saves because they actually can't?

Sovereign Court

Physically Unfeasible wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
The Monk naturally having a weaker Will save than the Bard is silly to me

Ah, but anyone can sit around going OHHHMMM all day.

No, to be a DANCER requires real dedication and will power!

*begins twerking*

It's actually surviving the criticism that they can't/shouldn't play/sing/dance.

Or is that the party's will saves because they actually can't?

I always just figured it was because they always had catchy songs stuck in their head so that it was hard for other outside things to influence them. It's hard to drown out We Are the Champions when it's stuck in your head!


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Unchained monk is an upgrade of core monk.
Highly debatable

If by Core monk they mean no archetypes - than yes. Without a doubt.

If with archetype mixing - I'd give it to old monk by a nose so long as the player knows what he's doing. But - I like defensive characters - so take it with that grain of salt. Umonk wins on offense until a Sohei grabs Gloves of Dueling. and Sohei gives up fast movement - and that makes me sad.

Yeah, but pretty much always going first is a nice consolation.

Verdant Wheel

lemeres wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
The Monk naturally having a weaker Will save than the Bard is silly to me

Ah, but anyone can sit around going OHHHMMM all day.

No, to be a DANCER requires real dedication and will power!

*begins twerking*

Just because you can't dance doesn't mean that dancing doesn't require dedication and will power.


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rainzax wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
The Monk naturally having a weaker Will save than the Bard is silly to me

Ah, but anyone can sit around going OHHHMMM all day.

No, to be a DANCER requires real dedication and will power!

*begins twerking*

Just because you can't dance doesn't mean that dancing doesn't require dedication and will power.

I know, but it is just SOOOOO easy to make fun of. Bard, y'know?

But technically speaking, any physical activity requires dedication and will power. That doesn't change the fighter's willsave though.

You need something more esoteric to justify good will save progression. Like long term philosophical contemplation, for example.

Verdant Wheel

lemeres wrote:
I know, but it is just SOOOOO easy to make fun of. Bard, y'know?

True

Scarab Sages

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rainzax wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
The Monk naturally having a weaker Will save than the Bard is silly to me

Ah, but anyone can sit around going OHHHMMM all day.

No, to be a DANCER requires real dedication and will power!

*begins twerking*

Just because you can't dance doesn't mean that dancing doesn't require dedication and will power.

We can dance if we want to.

We can leave your friends behind.
Cause' your friends don't dance,
and if they don't dance, well they're
no friends of mine.


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You don't need anything else other than game mechanic balance to justify a high or low save.

Plus, a Bard will always have lower will saves than a monk. The bard dumps Wisdom and the Monk pumps it.

Usually, without including magic items, you are looking at a +7 save for the bard and a +9 save for the Monk. With items it's even higher for the Monk, cause he wants the headband of wisdom and the bard doesn't. (EDIT: Also, there's the Still Mind bonus on top of that too. In the end, the Monk is +4 over the Bard, +6 against mind-affecting, if equally geared, against mind-affecting effects, even if the Bard does have Well-Versed to compensate.)
Also, most Monks have the feats to pick up Iron Will and Spiritual Balance, which increases their Will-based defenses dramatically.

YOU CAN'T JUST COMPARE TWO CLASS CHASSISES (chasses?). As a whole, the UnMonk ends up being a great package and much more mentally resistant than the Bard.

My personal motivation to stop paying in this thread is that I know everyone here complains because the Monk didn't get a straight buff.

But I know that new players will find the new Monk much better in every single way than the normal Monk. It's a better designed class.

And don't start with the low ki pool stuff again. You have the free feats to take Extra Ki if you wanted and a natural way to get Ki Leech.

Lemmy wrote:
It's good to know that this Wizard is fully using those divination spells... He obviously knows what classes everyone is playing!

No fricking empyrical evidence from the naysayers does the trick. I haven't seen one person tell me they felt they were lacking mobility, defenses, power, or a feeling of awesomeness while playing an UnMonk... because no one seems to have played it.

The d10 hit dice and the full-bab constantly is heaven-sent.

The ONE thing I think it's missing is Heal as a class skill, and perhaps some ability to improve his Knowledge checks with Wisdom.

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