Scarred Witchtank


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Silver Crusade

I know the Scarred Witchdoctor nerf has been discussed elswhere, but I'm dying to know: were Constitution-based Orc witch tanks really that big of a problem?

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

I can't speak for everyone but they weren't in my games.

I have played two witches in major long running campaigns. One was a ratfolk witch that ran with no archetypes and the other was a werecroc skinwalker with scarred witchdoctor (homeruled to allow the race to access the archetype.)

Out of the two, I saw no real difference in power. The vanilla witch had less survivability (and the party did have to raise him a couple times after a combat, though the circumstances of his deaths were a bit odd and unusual,) but had more spells and the familiar provided good utility. The Scarred witchdoctor did prove to be more durable, and he was able to go toe-to-toe with enemies.

My scarred witchdoctor was not an effective combatant at all, however, and even though he could be adjacent to enemies he really couldn't physically harm them. In fact, spellcasting had much more concentration checks with him, and that meant more lost spells over time. The extra HP was very helpful, but only in extending the life of my character.

I found the scarred witch doctor needed the about the same number of high ability scores. Vanilla witch benefits from having their high ability score in Int and the next highest in Dex and Con. Scarred witchdoctor needed highest in Con, next highest in Int, and at least 12 in Dex and Str.

There were many discussions on how to get Con boosted, but nearly all methods were similar to boosting Int. While the urban barbarian archetype might have allowed spellcasting in rage, I is just as likely to not allow it. My own GM said no.

So, in my own play experience: No. There weren't a problem. They were a different experience but never proved to be any more powerful.


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During the week of July 14th, I spent 5 days making a Mutagen Warrior 1/Scarred Witch Doctor 6 for a campaign that was going to begin on July 29th. At the end of the week I had the character I wanted - picked all the feats i wanted, picked all the hexes i wanted, picked all the items i wanted... and then my entire character got errata'd onto oblivion

When last week's ACG errata came out, it changed the Mutagen Warrior Mutagen (Su) ability to 3rd level... To recover from that blow, i tried alchemist, or internal alchemeist... but the missing bonus feat cut off my ability to get Dazzling Dizplay: Prehensile Hair...
and I really had been trying to build this character aroundt he Prehensile Hair Hex.

Then i see that Hex Vulnerability no longer can work with the Healing Hex... ok - well that sucks - i guess i'll just return that 3750 gp wand of CL5 Hex Vulnerability... as that is all but useless to the party now... Maybe someone else wants to take on primary healer responsibilities...

Thats when i realized that my other character -the one for my Play by Post game - also got the errata dismantle bomb. The DM in that game hadn't allowed Unchained Rogue, but had assumed Slashing Grace not working on Light weapons was a mistake, and allowed it to be used on all finessable weapons. So I had built a TWF, dagger weilding dex based rogue... now that Eratta was published, he says i can still get Dex to damage on a single dagger - but no more TWF'ing... oh, AND since I had made a Filcher Rogue that, when not TWFing, would steal as a move action - I will no longer be able to do that and and still get Dex to Damage, as my off hand will be otherwise occupied...

This is not a good week...

At least I got to play my downgraded scarred witch doctor... oh wait - NOPE! The day we were to play, Paizo drops the other hammer and completely dismantles the rest of that character making my Orc cast off of INT instead of CON... SERTIOUSLY!?!? after i finally fixed the Mutagen Warrior problem by going Mutagenic Mauler and spending money on a wayfinder and Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone for Weapon Focus: Prehensile Hair... but now... with the lowered CON, HP, and not being able to boost my casting stat with the mutagen, i have no reason to delve into MELEE with my crazy hair...

So... i guess, i will just be a smart ORC, that spams evil eye, misfortune and slumber... just like every other witch... so much for trying to do something different

:-(


CalebTGordan wrote:

I can't speak for everyone but they weren't in my games.

I have played two witches in major long running campaigns. One was a ratfolk witch that ran with no archetypes and the other was a werecroc skinwalker with scarred witchdoctor (homeruled to allow the race to access the archetype.)

Out of the two, I saw no real difference in power. The vanilla witch had less survivability (and the party did have to raise him a couple times after a combat, though the circumstances of his deaths were a bit odd and unusual,) but had more spells and the familiar provided good utility. The Scarred witchdoctor did prove to be more durable, and he was able to go toe-to-toe with enemies.

My scarred witchdoctor was not an effective combatant at all, however, and even though he could be adjacent to enemies he really couldn't physically harm them. In fact, spellcasting had much more concentration checks with him, and that meant more lost spells over time. The extra HP was very helpful, but only in extending the life of my character.

I found the scarred witch doctor needed the about the same number of high ability scores. Vanilla witch benefits from having their high ability score in Int and the next highest in Dex and Con. Scarred witchdoctor needed highest in Con, next highest in Int, and at least 12 in Dex and Str.

There were many discussions on how to get Con boosted, but nearly all methods were similar to boosting Int. While the urban barbarian archetype might have allowed spellcasting in rage, I is just as likely to not allow it. My own GM said no.

So, in my own play experience: No. There weren't a problem. They were a different experience but never proved to be any more powerful.

Why did the witchdoctor need a high Int? I thought that was the point of the class? (Sure, skills, but that's the same for everyone.)

And only needs the Str if you're going to play them as a gish. They're still basically a caster, just an even more SAD one.


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It was needed for extra spells per day.

[sarcasm]
The scarred witch was so broken, like it almost had as much HP as a Fighter!!! While having an AC a few points higher than other casters!!! having a full arcane spellcaster with that much extra toughness ruined everything! No longer would he die from a gust of wind. BROKEN! You should instead play a elf wizard point buy con to 7 and take all FCB in skills, that's a real caster for you!
[/sarcasm]
Nope, it was interesting


SWD turned an already SAD class into an even more SAD class. I feel people are underplaying how much more survivability it had. Your average npc witch will have 3.5+Con/level hp. So, at level 10 the regular witch would be expected to have a Con around 14 for a total of 55 hp. The SWD would be expected to have a con around 24 at that level for a bonus of +7 and a total of 105 hp.

*I used NPC to keep the math clear, but you could just add 2.5 to each total to get the PC totals.


Wait was this the new Errata that came out?

Shadow Lodge

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thejeff wrote:

Why did the witchdoctor need a high Int? I thought that was the point of the class? (Sure, skills, but that's the same for everyone.)

And only needs the Str if you're going to play them as a gish. They're still basically a caster, just an even more SAD one.

Intellect is still required for bonus spells, so if you pump CON at the complete expense of INT, you are losing out on quite a few spells per day that a normal witch would get.


Serum wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Why did the witchdoctor need a high Int? I thought that was the point of the class? (Sure, skills, but that's the same for everyone.)

And only needs the Str if you're going to play them as a gish. They're still basically a caster, just an even more SAD one.
Intellect is still required for bonus spells, so if you pump CON at the complete expense of INT, you are losing out on quite a few spells per day that a normal witch would get.

I'd actually missed (of forgotten) that. Hadn't actually built a scarred witch doctor and just assumed from my earlier brief look that Con replaced Int for all the casting/hex stuff. Kind of a weird design choice actually.

But yeah, I'd probably still dump Int and just accept the lost spells/day in favor of more SAD.


thejeff wrote:
I'd actually missed (of forgotten) that. Hadn't actually built a scarred witch doctor and just assumed from my earlier brief look that Con replaced Int for all the casting/hex stuff. Kind of a weird design choice actually.

I suspect it was more of an oversight than a design choice.


Melkiador wrote:
thejeff wrote:
I'd actually missed (of forgotten) that. Hadn't actually built a scarred witch doctor and just assumed from my earlier brief look that Con replaced Int for all the casting/hex stuff. Kind of a weird design choice actually.
I suspect it was more of an oversight than a design choice.

That was kind of my thought as well.


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Melkiador wrote:
thejeff wrote:
I'd actually missed (of forgotten) that. Hadn't actually built a scarred witch doctor and just assumed from my earlier brief look that Con replaced Int for all the casting/hex stuff. Kind of a weird design choice actually.
I suspect it was more of an oversight than a design choice.

I disagree - I think its what kept the class actually balanced - if you want to pump your CON through the roof - fine - fewer spells for you, and good luck if you ever face a bunch of undead.

No... my major problem with the decision to switch from from CON to INT for all if its casting, is that it completely abandons the concept for the archetype. Go ahead - read the description:

Scarred Witch Doctor wrote:


The scarred witch doctor draws power from her ability to endure pain and suffering. She mutilates her own flesh, inflicting horrific scars, in order to attract the attention of her patron. Rather than call forth a familiar, she creates a repulsive fetish mask that she uses as a repository for her power.

Everything about that says HIGH CON... none of it says HIGH INT.

So if you are going to completely change the flavor of the archetype - at least have the decency to change the flavor text as well.


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It was probably an oversight. It's also probably what kept the class balanced.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
It was probably an oversight. It's also probably what kept the class balanced.

I might not be as disappointed if they had removed spellcasting from Con but kept hex DCs attached to it. That would further keep things balanced, but I am still not convinced that the archetype was unbalanced.


It was banned from PFS. Most likely because it was considered too OP. We'll find out if PFS suddenly allows the new SWD.

Shadow Lodge

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Melkiador wrote:
It was banned from PFS. Most likely because it was considered too OP. We'll find out if PFS suddenly allows the new SWD.

They didn't single out Scarred Witch Doctor as being banned. They removed the entire orc section, along with a bunch of the other featured races. It's unlikely these races will become legal due to this errata.


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well that just makes the change to the archetype even MORE baffling!


SWD was hardly broken. It is no more SAD than a normal witch. Just re arranged stats.

Now the Beast Bonded witch. Now THAT can be abused, seeing as there is STILL no clarification on how its Magic Jar ability works...


Except for, you know, being SAD in the single best ability score in the game, one that even normal witches needed to put some points into.


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You still need int for bonus spells.. and with your 2+int skills you are Gonna hurt on skills and lack the extra spells to lean on them.


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Cheapy wrote:
Except for, you know, being SAD in the single best ability score in the game, one that even normal witches needed to put some points into.

I disagree. I'd much rather have a high intelligence witch than a high constitution witch. Intelligence gives boosts to all the knowledges, spellcraft and spells known, not to mention an abundance of skill points.

The flavour of the Scarred Witch Doctor was really cool, but for me a straight witch is much better. I'd much rather play a super smart witch than a super durable witch - to me it'd make for a far more fun game.

I didn't really find the SWD overpowered. Con for int sounds like a reasonable trade off to me. Both very useful stats.


It is easier to boost a constitution score than to boost an intelligence score. Lots of spells boost con: Elemental Body IV (Water Elemental +8 size con), Heart of the Mammoth (+8 enh to con), Vengeful Outrage (+6 morale).

Not all of these were on the witch spell list of course.

Even with this potential con boosting scheme, many of these are short duration spells and very high level.

Still, the new class SWD is more powerful. Shame they changed the class.


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Nardoz Zardoz wrote:

It is easier to boost a constitution score than to boost an intelligence score. Lots of spells boost con: Elemental Body IV (Water Elemental +8 size con), Heart of the Mammoth (+8 enh to con), Vengeful Outrage (+6 morale).

Not all of these were on the witch spell list of course.

Even with this potential con boosting scheme, many of these are short duration spells and very high level.

Still, the new class SWD is more powerful. Shame they changed the class.

Boosting Con might have made them more durable, and their spells/hexes more powerful, but that's all it did.

This is no different than Barbarians making use of the Courageous property when they were Raging in combat; it was a fairly nice, unique boost that helped. Now it and the SWD stinks more than moldy rotten eggs covered in diseased chicken and beef.


Talk your dm into looking into Lost Tradition. Old 3.0 feat

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