| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here's a thread to discuss the new ARG errata.
First big thing I noticed: Scarred Witch Doctor isn't Con based anymore. It's okay though, since we have actual con based casters with the psionics now.
Edit: You can find errata here
I really thought this was a troll, but sure enough....
Vanaras climb slower. Tieflings/Aasimars/Dhampirs age at human rates. A lot of wizard/oracle/sorc favored class options are 1/6 progression instead of 1/2.
Um... I'm having trouble finding any other "big" changes in this one.
|
I really thought this was a troll, but sure enough....
Exactly. How long has it been from when the ARG was released? I feel like I am beta testing playtest materials rather than using finished content.
BTW, thanks to Paizo for nerfing my long-standing and high-level PFS life oracle by killing his channels. I presume this will entitle us to a full rebuild?
I'm almost certain the Scarred Witch Doctors get free rebuilds, since their key stat changed.
The Oracle should be out of luck, but you're still a life Oracle. You still channel better than almost anyone.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Of course it's a travesty for any race to have a better FCB for Oracles than humans.
|
|
I'm almost certain the Scarred Witch Doctors get free rebuilds, since their key stat changed.
The Oracle should be out of luck, but you're still a life Oracle. You still channel better than almost anyone.
Why exactly should I be "out of luck?" The character is built entirely around the enhanced channeling ability. He would have been a cleric (which is MUCH more powerful) otherwise.
If you are talking about free rebuilds in PFS, then you basically only get them if your key stats change.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Page 149—In the mask of stony demeanor spell, change
“Price 500 gp” to “Price 8,000 gp” and “Cost 250 gp” to
“Cost 4,000 gp”
RIP most broken item
Hooray for actually nerfing casters! My first reaction was 'Wow, nerfing Oracle FCB really hard. They aren't strong enough to deserve that!'
But then I remembered that they are. A class I enjoy, but can take and probably needs the nerf.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
First big thing I noticed: Scarred Witch Doctor isn't Con based anymore.
So WTF is the point of it then
The scarred witch doctor nerf was called for, it really needed it.
I liked the old way, as it gave it something unique. Now it's kind of meh...
The wyroot nerf was also needed but it really hurts. Only being able to benefit from any wyroot weapons once per day is a big hit.
Yes, actually having enough KI points to make the new monk functional was a HUGE issue that needed 'fixed'... Sigh... Where no more kids with candy they could steal from?
Kitsune don't have to renew their forms every 10 minutes, that's nice.
It's a miracle! I'm sure they MEANT to nerf it but that got messed up in editing...
Amusing the Fetchlings and Elemental kin didn't get the lifespan nerf.
I'm sure someone on staff just made a note of that...
So WTF is the point of it then
First big thing I noticed: Scarred Witch Doctor isn't Con based anymore.
So that orcs can be witches without being -4 compared to everyone else in the class, I guess. The Scarred Witch Doctor was a bad idea from the start, but they can't just git rid of it entirely so they nerf it to the point where no one will use it.
Wait, never mind, this makes Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctors the only people that can start with a 22 in their casting stat. Derp.
Huh, I'm afraid to even mention it, but I'm suprised that Kitsune Enchanters didn't get hit with the "Maximum of +2" nerf that a bunch of other favored class bonuses received.
So WTF is the point of it then
First big thing I noticed: Scarred Witch Doctor isn't Con based anymore.
So that orcs can be witches without being -4 compared to everyone else in the class, I guess. The Scarred Witch Doctor was a bad idea from the start, but they can't just git rid of it entirely so they nerf it to the point where no one will use it.
Wait, never mind, this makes Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctors the only people that can start with a 22 in their casting stat. Derp.
Wow. That Fierce Intelligence is pretty insane. I never paid much attention to that archetype before.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Exactly. How long has it been from when the ARG was released? I feel like I am beta testing playtest materials rather than using finished content.
This position is fundamentally wrong.
With a game this complicated it is totally unrealistic to expect everything Paizo publishes to be perfect. Some mistakes are going to be made, some things will be discovered in play to be too powerful.
When Paizo discovers issues they have the choice of leaving the issue or fixing it. In general, if the issue is significant enough, fixing it seems superior.
The errata is a relatively small set of changes, most of which I agree with.
I'd prefer them to get everything totally perfect the first time too. But I put that preference with other totally unrealistic expectations like getting my cats to obey me or having politicians in power that I can actually respect.
|
|
Amusing the Fetchlings and Elemental kin didn't get the lifespan nerf.
I'd call this a change rather than a nerf. I REALLY, REALLY wanted my Realistic Likeness Aasimar to have a normal life span, I'm ecstatic that she now does.
In 99+% of campaigns lifespan is flavour only. Which means that a change isn't a nerf, its a change.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If you are talking about free rebuilds in PFS, then you basically only get them if your key stats change.
Actually, what the guide says is "If an ability-score-dependent feature of a class, prestige class, or archetype is altered: You may rebuild your character to its current XP. Keep the same equipment, but you can resell any equipment that augments the changed ability score at its full market price."
It seems to me that the Oracle's channeling is an ability-score-dependent feature of a class. It was altered by this change. While the above rebuild is somewhat limiting due to my equipment, I could make it work.
The Guide gives an additional option: "If a favored class bonus changes: You may reassign all of your favored class bonus at each level to any of the now legal options." This would not be satisfactory.
I can understand to a point why Paizo would want to retain control of game features that it feels are unbalanced. However, it is exceptionally difficult to understand why a book as ensconced as the ARG would be changed at this late date. It is also troubling that, particularly in the context of PFS, that players are encouraged to buy specific books and then the features of those books are changed.
Here is my bottom line. The character in question represents significantly more than 100 hours of my time. The change is such that I would never have built the character had the rules been as they are today, nor do I have any wish to play this very singularly-focused character as altered. I would thus be very disappointed if there was not a rebuild, particularly when the change was not my fault. If Paizo does not value the 100+ hours that I put into a character that I no longer wish to play, then perhaps I need to reconsider my participation in PFS. On the other hand, a rebuild would be an opportunity to try out a new concept that would very significantly reduce my dissatisfaction.
Clarification by Paizo staff would be appreciated.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The FCB changes are nerfs. Especially to oracles that were built around a particular revelation. Those characters are now often worse than other options - life channel oracle < positive channel cleric; many forms oracle << druid.
What galls me is that nobody was looking for these changes, and they follow a large number of unlooked-for nerfs in the ACG errata.
Why on earth should Oracles be able to channel better than clerics?!?!
Why on earth should Oracles be able to channel better than clerics?!?!
Given that Clerics are better at spells and maybe combat prowess (good Fort Save), the Oracle should at least have the edge in class features (and it already has in many instances)
It's very questionable if FCB is actually a class feature. They are never listed with their respective classes.
|
|
I wouldn't say that all oracles should be able to channel better than all clerics.
I do think that if you design a character around a particular ability because you want to be really good at it, and then an unexpected and uncalled for rule change reverses the merit of the choices that you made, you can justifiably feel upset.
Choosing to play a life oracle specialising in channel by spending racial alternative favoured class bonuses on the pertinent revelation and then finding that suddenly your oracle is significantly worse at his specialisation than he was yesterday is not fun.
In my case it's the Many Forms revelation I built for. Now I'd have been better off as a druid than an oracle. I feel like my character design choice has been invalidated.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Given that Clerics are better at spells and maybe combat prowess (good Fort Save), the Oracle should at least have the edge in class features (and it already has in many instances)
Trust me Oracles have way better class features already than Clerics..... hell, I have better class features than a Cleric!!!
|
So WTF is the point of it then
First big thing I noticed: Scarred Witch Doctor isn't Con based anymore.
So that orcs can be witches without being -4 compared to everyone else in the class, I guess. The Scarred Witch Doctor was a bad idea from the start, but they can't just git rid of it entirely so they nerf it to the point where no one will use it.
Wait, never mind, this makes Half-Orc Scarred Witch Doctors the only people that can start with a 22 in their casting stat. Derp.
Ifrit sorcerers would disagree with that statement.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Trust me Oracles have way better class features already than Clerics..... hell, I have better class features than a Cleric!!!
Given that Clerics are better at spells and maybe combat prowess (good Fort Save), the Oracle should at least have the edge in class features (and it already has in many instances)
You can cast 9th level divine spells? WHY THE F!%!F@$!F+#% are you wasting your time on the Paizo board?!?
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why on earth should Oracles be able to channel better than clerics?!?!
Life Oracles have a massive number of disadvantages versus a Cleric:
1)They get 1 + their Charisma mod in channels instead of 3 + Charisma with clerics.
2)Oracles do not get fort as a high save. Also, a cleric's casting stat, WIS helps with will saves. My Oracle, which has dumped WIS, actually has a problematic will save.
3) Oracles are distinctly inferior spellcasters. Most of the Oracle's benefits of being a spontaneous caster are shared by clerics, who can spontaneously cast cure spells. Clerics get higher level spells one level earlier and also get domain spells, which are generally superior to and more diverse than Revelation spells. Clerics can also more easily change roles by memorizing different spells. They can also leave spell slots open to memorize a crucial spell (such as remove curse or blindness) when the need arises.
4) Domains tend to be much more powerful than revelations. The Travel, Heroism, and Feather Domains are absurdly powerful, just to name a few.
The Aasimar FCB gave Aasimar Life Oracles the limited benefit of being by a significant margin the best burst healers in the game, with the above significant trade-offs and the taxing need to absolutely maximize CHA to have any endurance with channeling and quick channeling. With that lost, they are lost and have no advantage over Clerics and a number of crippling disadantages.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The FCB changes are nerfs. Especially to oracles that were built around a particular revelation. Those characters are now often worse than other options - life channel oracle < positive channel cleric; many forms oracle << druid.
Uh, a Life Oracle is still a better chaneller than almost any cleric. Cha is the Oracles casting and chanelling stat after all. I suppose a cleric who puts everything into cha is 2 channels a day ahead of a life oracle but his spells will suffer a lot in return.
The FCB were overpowered. I'm glad they've been reduced.
That said, I DO support a full rebuild in PFS. Things changed and the player shouldn't have to pay for that. It doesn't matter if I think your life oracle is still a fine character, it only matters if you do.
(...)
3) Oracles are distinctly inferior spellcasters. Most of the Oracle's benefits of being a spontaneous caster are shared by clerics, who can spontaneously cast cure spells. Clerics get higher level spells one level earlier and also get domain spells, which are generally superior to and more diverse than Revelation spells. Clerics can also more easily change roles by memorizing different spells. They can also leave spell slots open to memorize a crucial spell (such as remove curse or blindness) when the need arises.
(...)
Great summary! I'd like to add one more detail - the 3.x cleric spell list was written from the ground up exclusively for the cleric, a class that automatically gains access to every spell on his spell list.. Therefore the door is wide open to writing incredibly specific narrow niche spells, or split up what would normally be a single spell effect into into separate spells. Since the Oracle has a sharply limited number of spells known, that bites him in the ass rather hard. Whereas you can build generalist sorcerers that can cover most of the traditional wizard bases, it's incredibly hard to make a generalist oracle that covers the traditional cleric bases.
|
Great summary, though I'll add one more detail - the 3.x cleric spell list was written from the ground up exclusively for a class that's assumed to always have every spell on the cleric list available for free. Therefore the door is wide open to writing incredibly specific niche spells, or split up what would normally be a single spell effect into into separate spells. Since the Oracle has a sharply limited number of spells known, that bites him in the ass rather hard. Whereas you can build generalist sorcerers that can cover most of the traditional wizard bases, it's incredibly hard to make a generalist oracle that covers the traditional cleric bases.
While this is true, it's a problem that is easily solved by a few scrolls and Mnemonic Vestments.
|
|
The FCB changes are nerfs. Especially to oracles that were built around a particular revelation. Those characters are now often worse than other options - life channel oracle < positive channel cleric; many forms oracle << druid.
Uh, a Life Oracle is still a better chaneller than almost any cleric. Cha is the Oracles casting and chanelling stat after all. I suppose a cleric who puts everything into cha is 2 channels a day ahead of a life oracle but his spells will suffer a lot in return.
The FCB were overpowered. I'm glad they've been reduced.
That said, I DO support a full rebuild in PFS. Things changed and the player shouldn't have to pay for that. It doesn't matter if I think your life oracle is still a fine character, it only matters if you do.
Pauljathome,
Thank you for your support of a rebuild. I am not saying that Paizo should necessarily be required to allow options that it considers broken. What I am asking is that, when they change their mind, I should be allowed to as well. I also think that a blank-slate, all but expended equipment, rebuild is appropriate, although I could live with the partial-equipment rebuild they offer for this particular character.
it's incredibly hard to make a generalist oracle that covers the traditional cleric bases.
But Oracles almost by definition are specialists not generalists
Great summary, though I'll add one more detail - the 3.x cleric spell list was written from the ground up exclusively for a class that's assumed to always have every spell on the cleric list available for free. Therefore the door is wide open to writing incredibly specific niche spells, or split up what would normally be a single spell effect into into separate spells. Since the Oracle has a sharply limited number of spells known, that bites him in the ass rather hard. Whereas you can build generalist sorcerers that can cover most of the traditional wizard bases, it's incredibly hard to make a generalist oracle that covers the traditional cleric bases.While this is true, it's a problem that is easily solved by a few scrolls and Mnemonic Vestments.
Scrolls are a shaky solution since many of the spells you want to provide (such as Remove Disease) rely on CL to succeed. Mnemonic Vestments are a better solution at 5k a pop they're a bit too pricy to rely on till the mid-game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But Oracles almost by definition are specialists not generalists
Why on earth should Oracles be able to channel better than clerics?!?!
And yet you don't think the specialist life oracle should be able to channel as well or better than the generalist cleric?
If the Oracle is forced to specialize, he should be better at his chosen field than a cleric who chooses not to specialize.
I think I've flopped on my original opinion. I don't think a lot of those nerfs address anything Oracles or Sorcerers or whoever can do to overshadow other classes or options. I mean really it was just the Oracle hit by this, but I don't think any of those options allowed Oracle to overshadow Clerics or Druids or whoever. It just gave them a leg up in certain areas to make up for spontaneous casting and expanded build options. Sure, they still expand build options, but perhaps not enough to be relevant. Maybe 1/4 from 1/2 would have been better?
Man, I feel so conflicted. Do I rage at the Paizo Hate Machine or not?
And yet you don't think the specialist life oracle should be able to channel as well or better than the generalist cleric?If the Oracle is forced to specialize, he should be better at his chosen field than a cleric who chooses not to specialize.
No I dont.... Oracles have all manner of specialisms, most of which they are better than clerics at... you dont have to be the best at everything! For a cleric to be good at channeling, he has to invest serious ability points and feats. And anyway in terms of healing a life oracle still ranks as possibly the best in the game....
Oracle fans really dont realise when they are onto a good thing sometimes....
Amusing the Fetchlings and Elemental kin didn't get the lifespan nerf.I'd call this a change rather than a nerf. I REALLY, REALLY wanted my Realistic Likeness Aasimar to have a normal life span, I'm ecstatic that she now does.
In 99+% of campaigns lifespan is flavour only. Which means that a change isn't a nerf, its a change.
That's fine for you but I'd be fairly agitated if I decided to come up with a backstory for a character using those tables as a guideline to make sure that character's story is lore appropriate only to have that backstory made impossible by the second edition of the book. I feel like Paizo has become a little comfortable with revising its mistakes as opposed to trying to work with them. Can't say that I have much interest in buying a book knowing that any part of it could become irrelevant in a couple years. And personally I feel Paizo should be doubly cautious when revising fluff because while it may have no impact on the mechanics of the game a small change like the one above has profound impact on how people see their established characters.
No I dont.... Oracles have all manner of specialisms, most of which they are better than clerics at... you dont have to be the best at everything!
How exactly does an oracle that in your own words specialize "be the best at everything"? Oracles are forced to specialize into fairly narrow fields and compared to a cleric they are awful at whatever area they don't specialize in.
A battle oracle is a solid melee combatant and possibly even better in melee combat than a martial cleric, but there is no way in hell you'll convince me that a battle oracle is a better support caster, diviner, summoner or utility caster than a martial cleric.
For a cleric to be good at channeling, he has to invest serious ability points and feats. And anyway in terms of healing a life oracle still ranks as possibly the best in the game....
For an oracle to be good at channeling he needs all the same feats as the cleric, and unlike the cleric (who gets channeling by default) he's also limited to a single mystery and must pick a specific revelation. Oracles give up a hell of a lot more to be good at channeling than clerics do.
Trust me Oracles have way better class features already than Clerics..... hell, I have better class features than a Cleric!!!
Given that Clerics are better at spells and maybe combat prowess (good Fort Save), the Oracle should at least have the edge in class features (and it already has in many instances)
That's a good reason to improve clerics, not worsen others.
At least we can point here when people always say only the martials get the nerfs.
I get how the oracle thing bothers people. Being nerfed is never fun. But the FCB was certainly stronger than its fellows. This shouldn't have been a complete surprise.
The SWD change isn't even a nerf really. It's just a complete change from the original purpose.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So is this the new direction PF is taking? Reballancing frequently to maintain sameness and hammer down anything that stands out, invalidating all the sourcebooks people pay money for? I for one was already upset by the ACG errata because, ignoring any disagreement with the content changes (I have a lot of disagreement...), I just had a book made completely obsolete. Now they are doing the same with another book the next day, apparently pulling the bandaid off fast instead of peeling it off.
This is a problematic path, one that is a mistake for the company. Rather than doing wholesale revision, they appear to be attempting to rebalance the game as a continuous process, which is fraught with complications. Further, and most dangerously, they invalidate the act of purchasing their books by reducing buyer faith that the content will have value. This just makes it clear that using electronic sources that are auto updated (and free) is a superior option, because you can trust that the content is accurate and don't have to cross reference errata for everything you do.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not so bad, after the sixth round of revision Paizo will then sell you a book to explain the patchwork mess to you.