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Myrryr |
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*Audible Gasp!*
*Squees like a fangirl*
An evil AP followed by a lovecraftian one?? Oh my god, 2016 is shaping up to the best year ever.
Sadly it doesn't sound as if it's going to deal with the Dominion of the Black and Nyarlathotep/the Black Pharoah, plus additional worlds and Aucturn, but probably more with Cthulhu. Considering the picture anyway. Which is fine, who doesn't love our tentacle faced Great Old One of insanity?
As to the alignment issue above, the Outer Gods, Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath, yeah aren't really evil so much as forces of nature. Or maybe forces of un-nature, considering they're the literal definition of unnatural. The way Azathoth reads, he might actually just be a literal supermassive black hole at the center of the universe, though Yog-Sothoth is clearly sapient and has SOME alien goal. Shub-Niggurath... well, she's the matron deity of tentacle rape and pregnancy. Everyone loves her of course. Not really alien, though I guess for 'normal' people, they do always give looks of confusion when you say tentacle hentai. Does that make internet nerds alien? Food for thought...
The great old ones though, they're much closer to being understandable because unlike the outer gods, they aren't really limitless. They're on the level of demon lords, protean lords (when are we getting a book of the damned equivalent for proteans anyway?), etc.. For them to have incomprehensible goals, they'd have to have incomprehensible powers to achieve them, ergo their goals are comprehensible even if their motives aren't.
And all of them have stated motives pretty much. Amusingly though, Cthulhu's insanity and his unstated goals, plus no mention of his acts... canonically anyway... maybe he's under the impression that madness is the right thing and is just trying to be friendly by giving everyone insanity?
Vote Cthulhu for president 2016 and YOU can go insane too!
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Well, we know JJ is a huge Lovecraft buff, so if that's the sort of thing that happens in Lovecraft stories, then I'm sure he'll slip it in. I'd expect stuff to be pretty faithful considering how much he seems to love that material.
Well, considering this is Pathfinder, the default assumption is that you will be hitting the eldritch horrors with pointy sticks until they fall over. So not all that faithful.
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thejeff wrote:More like, "They kill, corrupt or drive mad other sentients just by their very nature and presence, often without even noticing the other sentients are there."That's an interesting dilemma, at which point does that become Evil?
If I carry a contagious disease, and go around people with it, not caring that I'm infecting and/or killing them with just my presence, I'd say that makes me Evil.
But if I am unable to perceive them? Say, I'm unconscious? Lying in a coma, for example. I would say that at that point, it would not be an Evil act just to lie there vegetative and infect/kill people. Or bacteria inside me that I am unable to perceive. Killing bacteria inside me, I would consider that a Neutral act as well.
Ants? Is stepping on ants an Evil act? I would say that not paying attention to them and walking around and smooshing them without thinking isn't Evil, but if you paused to look at them and then intentionally stepped on some, that might be. Doing the same to a dog certainly would be, IMO.
So I guess it depends on what level humans are compared to them. If we're on a bacteria level, I can see the Neutral argument. If we're on a dog level, I don't think I'd buy it.
Have you ever stepped on an ant hill? Same concept.
Most of the Outer Gods / Great Old Ones don't even notice the anthill. A few just don't really care.
And Nyarlathotep purposefully focuses the sunlight with a magnifying glass....after dousing the anthill with gasoline.
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Wonder what's going to end up in the bestiaries, as most lovecraft stuff is already covered in the bestiaries, probably another bunch of robots, SF monsters and aliens with multiple tentacles, eyes and brains, but I hope i'm wrong and there will be mythology monsters and other monsters such as kytons and stuff, then I will buy them for the bestiaries only. I really don't like these theme-bestiaries... In the early days EVERYTHING went and monsters were randomized.
1. Yeah, all those lovecraftian robots. [rolls eyes]
2. If you don't like theme bestiaries, then the AP bestiaries aren't gonna be your thing. With a few exceptions, they are ALL thematic.![](/WebObjects/Frameworks/Ajax.framework/WebServerResources/wait30.gif)
Turin the Mad |
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Samy wrote:Well, we know JJ is a huge Lovecraft buff, so if that's the sort of thing that happens in Lovecraft stories, then I'm sure he'll slip it in. I'd expect stuff to be pretty faithful considering how much he seems to love that material.Well, considering this is Pathfinder, the default assumption is that you will be hitting the eldritch horrors with pointy sticks until they fall over. So not all that faithful.
I don't know about that. I suspect a thorough dosing of Occult Adventures in Strange Aeons. Psychic combat, most if not all of the campaign traveling outre dreamscapes ... leaving one only to find out that you're in another one ...good times.
After all, if our amnesiac protagonists get to the end and kill Death (there's a stat block) ... only to emerge wriggling from their metamorphosis into [eldritch horror of choice] with chanting cultists in front of them "Ia! Ia!"
Meeting pulp authors outside of dreamscapes though ... meh.
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Kudaku |
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Samy wrote:Why would you guys want the enemies to be neutral rather than evil? I'm a little uncomfortable slaughtering neutrals by the hundreds.Most lovecraftian entities are beyond the petty mortal concept of morality.
"Beyond the petty mortal concept of morality" is normally represented by a neutral alignment in Pathfinder. Vermin and animals tend to have an alignment of true neutral, for example.
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Zhangar |
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Samy wrote:Why would you guys want the enemies to be neutral rather than evil? I'm a little uncomfortable slaughtering neutrals by the hundreds.Most lovecraftian entities are beyond the petty mortal concept of morality.
I'll note that intelligent entities that consider themselves beyond morality are normally actually evil =P
"Beyond morality" is merely a justification.
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Myrryr |
Kthulhu wrote:Samy wrote:Why would you guys want the enemies to be neutral rather than evil? I'm a little uncomfortable slaughtering neutrals by the hundreds.Most lovecraftian entities are beyond the petty mortal concept of morality.I'll note that intelligent entities that consider themselves beyond morality are normally actually evil =P
"Beyond morality" is merely a justification.
It's interesting to note though that having an alignment generally just means your soul is destined for a specific outer plane.
Somehow, with the Outer Gods being already part of the Material Plane (or entered it from outside time and space), I don't think Pharasma could judge them as being aligned anywhere. Azathoth isn't sentient, so honestly he's basically neutral, in the same way a black hole is neutral. But Yog-Sothoth's goals are 'something something the universe, something alien, something', and simple mortals are to him what microbial life is to us... beneath our notice.
Shub-Niggurath... she's a bit harder. She actually a concrete motive. Which is to say, breed breed breed. Oh you can't breed? Breed anyway! She's like a more focused, more tentacled version of Lamashtu with less information about her. I bet she could figure out a way to impregnate inanimate objects. Pregnant chairs! Pregnant swords! Ya know what, she'll even impregnate your ideas. Watch as she manages to make the idea of capitalism pregnant somehow.
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Bill, Brain Collector |
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Kthulhu wrote:Samy wrote:Why would you guys want the enemies to be neutral rather than evil? I'm a little uncomfortable slaughtering neutrals by the hundreds.Most lovecraftian entities are beyond the petty mortal concept of morality.I'll note that intelligent entities that consider themselves beyond morality are normally actually evil =P
"Beyond morality" is merely a justification.
Beyond Morality just means we love Fluffy Kittens, everything else is fair game!
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Zhangar |
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Zhangar wrote:Kthulhu wrote:Samy wrote:Why would you guys want the enemies to be neutral rather than evil? I'm a little uncomfortable slaughtering neutrals by the hundreds.Most lovecraftian entities are beyond the petty mortal concept of morality.I'll note that intelligent entities that consider themselves beyond morality are normally actually evil =P
"Beyond morality" is merely a justification.
It's interesting to note though that having an alignment generally just means your soul is destined for a specific outer plane.
Somehow, with the Outer Gods being already part of the Material Plane (or entered it from outside time and space), I don't think Pharasma could judge them as being aligned anywhere. Azathoth isn't sentient, so honestly he's basically neutral, in the same way a black hole is neutral. But Yog-Sothoth's goals are 'something something the universe, something alien, something', and simple mortals are to him what microbial life is to us... beneath our notice.
Shub-Niggurath... she's a bit harder. She actually a concrete motive. Which is to say, breed breed breed. Oh you can't breed? Breed anyway! She's like a more focused, more tentacled version of Lamashtu with less information about her. I bet she could figure out a way to impregnate inanimate objects. Pregnant chairs! Pregnant swords! Ya know what, she'll even impregnate your ideas. Watch as she manages to make the idea of capitalism pregnant somehow.
I suspect most mythos creatures, in the unlikely event of death (a lot of the stronger ones can only die by violence), get judged by Pharasma and sent to compatible outer planes. The section of the Abyss that Starspawn go to might be exceptionally hostile...
Though I just thought of a question for Mr. Jacobs - where did chaotic evil souls go before the Abyss was "broken into" by the Proteans?
Anyways.
Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth are simply Time and Energy made manifest. Trying to contact them or tap them is bad for you because they don't interface well with mortals. But they bear mortals no ill will. They simply are.
Shubby bears mortals an extensive amount of ill-will - she wants us gone because we're taking up space her brood could be using. The fact that there's plenty of unclaimed space and her brood can probably live anywhere is irrelevant - she wants the space we have because we're in it, and will gleefully annihilate us to take it.
(Her brood, such as the Dark Young, are often genuinely cruel to boot. Dark Young love paralyzing their victims and then arranging them in places to artistically die of exposure.)
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Squeakmaan |
![The Jester](http://cdn.paizo.com/image/avatar/jester.jpg)
Myrryr wrote:Zhangar wrote:Kthulhu wrote:Samy wrote:Why would you guys want the enemies to be neutral rather than evil? I'm a little uncomfortable slaughtering neutrals by the hundreds.Most lovecraftian entities are beyond the petty mortal concept of morality.I'll note that intelligent entities that consider themselves beyond morality are normally actually evil =P
"Beyond morality" is merely a justification.
It's interesting to note though that having an alignment generally just means your soul is destined for a specific outer plane.
Somehow, with the Outer Gods being already part of the Material Plane (or entered it from outside time and space), I don't think Pharasma could judge them as being aligned anywhere. Azathoth isn't sentient, so honestly he's basically neutral, in the same way a black hole is neutral. But Yog-Sothoth's goals are 'something something the universe, something alien, something', and simple mortals are to him what microbial life is to us... beneath our notice.
Shub-Niggurath... she's a bit harder. She actually a concrete motive. Which is to say, breed breed breed. Oh you can't breed? Breed anyway! She's like a more focused, more tentacled version of Lamashtu with less information about her. I bet she could figure out a way to impregnate inanimate objects. Pregnant chairs! Pregnant swords! Ya know what, she'll even impregnate your ideas. Watch as she manages to make the idea of capitalism pregnant somehow.
I suspect most mythos creatures, in the unlikely event of death (a lot of the stronger ones can only die by violence), get judged by Pharasma and sent to compatible outer planes. The section of the Abyss that Starspawn go to might be exceptionally hostile...
Though I just thought of a question for Mr. Jacobs - where did chaotic evil souls go before the Abyss was "broken into" by the Proteans?
Anyways.
Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth are simply Time and Energy made manifest. Trying to contact them or...
Not Mr. Jacobs but,
If I recall correctly, the Proteans broke into the abyss before the advent of mortal life, so i don't think there were any chaotic evil souls to be sent there.
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Myrryr |
Myrryr wrote:Zhangar wrote:Kthulhu wrote:Samy wrote:Why would you guys want the enemies to be neutral rather than evil? I'm a little uncomfortable slaughtering neutrals by the hundreds.Most lovecraftian entities are beyond the petty mortal concept of morality.I'll note that intelligent entities that consider themselves beyond morality are normally actually evil =P
"Beyond morality" is merely a justification.
It's interesting to note though that having an alignment generally just means your soul is destined for a specific outer plane.
Somehow, with the Outer Gods being already part of the Material Plane (or entered it from outside time and space), I don't think Pharasma could judge them as being aligned anywhere. Azathoth isn't sentient, so honestly he's basically neutral, in the same way a black hole is neutral. But Yog-Sothoth's goals are 'something something the universe, something alien, something', and simple mortals are to him what microbial life is to us... beneath our notice.
Shub-Niggurath... she's a bit harder. She actually a concrete motive. Which is to say, breed breed breed. Oh you can't breed? Breed anyway! She's like a more focused, more tentacled version of Lamashtu with less information about her. I bet she could figure out a way to impregnate inanimate objects. Pregnant chairs! Pregnant swords! Ya know what, she'll even impregnate your ideas. Watch as she manages to make the idea of capitalism pregnant somehow.
I suspect most mythos creatures, in the unlikely event of death (a lot of the stronger ones can only die by violence), get judged by Pharasma and sent to compatible outer planes. The section of the Abyss that Starspawn go to might be exceptionally hostile...
Though I just thought of a question for Mr. Jacobs - where did chaotic evil souls go before the Abyss was "broken into" by the Proteans?
Anyways.
Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth are simply Time and Energy made manifest. Trying to contact them or...
I don't think any mythos creature goes to Pharasma, certainly not a great old one or outer god honestly. It doesn't really fit with their origins that they'd be subject to the normal astral plane trip and whatnot. I'd suspect they'd be more like outsiders already are, IE; Soul and body are one and 'death' is also cessation.
A protean is CN because it's part of and partially made of the Maelstrom. And same with the other aligned outsiders. Why then, would not mythos creatures basically be the same for the material plane? If Azathoth is the manifestation of the destructive power of the material plane (IE; black holes and supernovae), and Yog-Sothoth, who's definitely sentient, would probably be the manifestation of sentience within the material plane.
Shubby, by contrast, if you think of her as a manifestation in the same vein, would be life's creation. An interesting part of that would be that she doesn't care about life's continuation, just it's creation... so every life that is taking up resources makes it harder for her to make new life, so she wants to destroy it. It certainly fits an insane view of fertility and breeding that would match with what we see as evil, without really being evil so much as ultra-single minded.
Thinking of the Outer Gods in that vein though... Great Old Ones seem a bit harder to explain. Powerful mortals that touched or understood the Outer Gods truths and were transformed? Creatures created by Shubby that were strong enough and similar enough that she actually praised them? Actually from outside space and time and aren't technically related to the Outer Gods but merely seem that way to us puny mortals? A lot of possible ways to go with it.
Anyways, using the explanation for the Outer Gods as intrinsic to the material plane, or parasites from beyond the planes that attached to it and became deeply integrated to the point of being un-excisable, seems to me much more interesting than 'evil powerful thing that we say isn't evil but really is'.
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Aboleths are judged. Stands to reason other weird-ass mythos-type beings are also judged, just like Aroden, just in a way incomprehensible to humanity.
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Myrryr |
Aboleths aren't mythos creatures however. Mythos being an Outer God, Great Old One, or directly made by them, like a shoggoth.
If you assume every single thing that is alive and has a soul gets judged, that also automatically means Pharasma is the most powerful thing there is in the Golarion setting and has to be the oldest and first thing in the setting to exist, which I see no supporting evidence of. If she wasn't, then what happens when some other deity kills her? It becomes a catch 22, she's alive, ergo she has to be judged, but now she's dead and can't judge because she's the judge.
We know deities can die, that's been proven multiple times. Thing is, the death of Aroden hints that at least ascended mortals are still alive and therefore go to be judged, but others, like the god of beasts that Lamashtu killed, hints they don't as she took his divine essence and there's nothing saying it went to Pharasma. Additionally there's no lore stating what's happened to other dead gods like the Azlanti ones... are they just a nameless outsider who doesn't remember they were a god 'in life' and Pharasma sent them to their current plane? Do gods have their own afterlife that Pharasma isn't telling anyone about? Clearly demon lords, which admittedly aren't full on divinities, go to one of two specific places in the Abyss, but that bit of lore in WotR and the Book of the Damned 3 doesn't mention them going to Pharasma first.
Additionally, that also means Pharasma is the final arbiter of morality, which logically extends to mean that she also determines the effects of all of the outer planes as they are in fact aligned and therefore have to be how she envisions them, or she wouldn't send souls to them as she judges.
And if I remember right, wasn't the first plane actually the positive energy plane, which is inhabited by the Jyoti who specifically bar gods from entering? And succeed?
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Well, the entities that are really beyond morality are the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods. They aren't mortal, so there's no need for Pharasma to judge them, or for them to move to any of the Outer Planes, since they don't die.
I really see Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, and Shub-Niggurath more as pure forces embodied than the traditional D&D gods, which are basically just extremely powerful NPCs.
Azathoth is destruction and chaos.
Yog-Sothoth is time and space.
Shub-Niggurath is life and fecundity.
I would actually put all of these at Chaotic Neutral, if I had to hammer them into one of the nine alignments. But really, I think that their stat blocks should read like this "Alignment: -".
Nyarlathotep is unique among them in that he doesn't really seem to embody a force, and is more akin to the traditional D&D "uber-NPC" gods. He has personality and seems to have goals and motivations (albeit beyond human reckoning). He definitely seems to be Chaotic Evil.
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Evil Midnight Lurker |
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The devs have made that claim, or at least that she's among the oldest and most powerful gods. She took her position when mortal life first appeared; although there are other gods who judge the dead of their pantheons, Pharasma is the final authority on the matter.Aboleths aren't mythos creatures however. Mythos being an Outer God, Great Old One, or directly made by them, like a shoggoth.
If you assume every single thing that is alive and has a soul gets judged, that also automatically means Pharasma is the most powerful thing there is in the Golarion setting and has to be the oldest and first thing in the setting to exist, which I see no supporting evidence of.
If she wasn't, then what happens when some other deity kills her? It becomes a catch 22, she's alive, ergo she has to be judged, but now she's dead and can't judge because she's the judge.
There is no catch. Pharasma can and will judge herself.
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Well, the entities that are really beyond morality are the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods. They aren't mortal, so there's no need for Pharasma to judge them, or for them to move to any of the Outer Planes, since they don't die.
I really see Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, and Shub-Niggurath more as pure forces embodied than the traditional D&D gods, which are basically just extremely powerful NPCs.
Azathoth is destruction and chaos.
Yog-Sothoth is time and space.
Shub-Niggurath is life and fecundity.I would actually put all of these at Chaotic Neutral, if I had to hammer them into one of the nine alignments. But really, I think that their stat blocks should read like this "Alignment: -".
Nyarlathotep is unique among them in that he doesn't really seem to embody a force, and is more akin to the traditional D&D "uber-NPC" gods. He has personality and seems to have goals and motivations (albeit beyond human reckoning). He definitely seems to be Chaotic Evil.
Have you ever read the (now 10+ years old) Call of Cthulhu d20 book? It took a very similar view of the three Outer Gods, viewing them as a trinity. I might see if I can dig up some choice quotes - that section of CoC d20 was exceptionally well-written.
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I read it back when it came out, and still have a copy around somewhere. I liked the fluff, and that it was more narrowly focused on Lovecraft's works rather than wider array of authors that the BRP version focuses on. But Call of Cthulhu was never meant for d20 mechanics.
Brian Lumley's Titus Crow series also looks at certain of the mythos entities in a similar manner...but to the point where some of them ONLY exist as concepts, not as actual entities. Specifically:
Azathoth is nuclear destruction, which is one of the few ways that the mythos entities can be completely destroyed.
Shub-Niggurath is their ability to produce offspring with just about anything. It doesn't matter that you're a human male...that shoggoth is going to impregnate you.
Nyarlathotep is their shared telepathy. In the Dreamlands, he does actually exist as a separate entity, IIRC.
Yog-Sothoth, oddly enough, exists as a physical entity.
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Zhangar |
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Lumley's stuff got kind of bad with the last couple books. Freakin Kthanid. (Though they only encountered Yog-Sothoth in physical form while time traveling I think?)
The first 4 of the Titus Crow books were pretty sweet, though.
While Great Old Ones are unkillable (unless you take one down while in Pharasma's court, perhaps?), their servitors are very killable.
Star-spawn and the like totally get judged by Pharasma when they die.
(Though it's worth noting that Pharasma is the Alpha and Omega in the Golarionverse - she's older than Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, and Shub-Niggurath. Perhaps by only the tiniest fraction of time possible, but Fate predates Energy, Time, and Life.)
Desna might also be just as old as the Outer Gods, and actively opposes them.
Anywho.
The Elder Things, while part of the Mythos, are definitely not servitors of the Outer Gods or the Great Old Ones - they fought, vanquished and sealed a number of the Great Old Ones, including Big C. Even if the Elder Things are gone, the Elder Signs remain.
(Though on Golarion, the Elder Things were defeated by the Aboleths, who were already present when the Elder Things tried to colonize.)
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Yeah, Lumley's stuff was never really even remotely true to the spirit of Lovecraft. Even before he started given the Great Old Ones good twins.
{vomits a bit in his mouth}
I mean, for f+&$'s sake, he could have just used Nodens. Derleth & Co. had already turned him into the Mythos' resident White Hat. Did he really need to give us "good Cthulhu" ?!?!?
But I digress....
I dunno necessarily about Pharasma being the Alpha and the Omega. Lots of gods claim they were the first. Apsu and Tiamat say they were before anything else. Asmodeus claims that he and Ihys were the first. Just because she's got the Death slot, that doesn't necessarily make her older than any of the other primordial gods.
I also disagree that Fate necessarily predates Energy, Time, and Life. Without those things, nothing exists for fate to apply to. Also, you're saying something predated Time...which is meaningless.
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Desna might also be just as old as the Outer Gods, and actively opposes them.
What exactly is she opposing from 3 of the 4 ?
Azathoth just hangs out in the center of the multiverse listening to music. It doesn't actively cause anyone any trouble unless the show up to f**% with it.
Note to all life forms within the Pathfinder-verse....don't go to the center of the multiverse and f~** with the entity there. That won't end well for you.
Yog-Sothoth might have some sort of agenda...he does pop up to impregnate creepy albino women every once in a while. He also seems to be the diety of choice for cultist wizards and sorcerers. But he's also literally Space & Time. He's everywhere and everywhen. If you're opposed to him, you're opposed to the multiverse existing.
Shub-Niggurath is basically Lamashtu turned up a few notches. It's basically life and sex and mutation. If Desna is opposed to sex and life, I question her "good" status. :P
Of course, these three aren't really all that active, other than as the concepts that they embody. I can see Desna actively opposing Nyarlathotep. The thing is....does she understand his goals or motivations any better than we pitiful mortals do? It's hard to effectively oppose someone if you aren't sure what the game they're playing is. You can play checkers against someone all day long, but if they're actually playing backgammon, you probably won't win.
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Zhangar wrote:Desna might also be just as old as the Outer Gods, and actively opposes them.What exactly is she opposing from 3 of the 4 ?
Azathoth just hangs out in the center of the multiverse listening to music. It doesn't actively cause anyone any trouble unless the show up to f!#* with it.
Note to all life forms within the Pathfinder-verse....don't go to the center of the multiverse and f@!~ with the entity there. That won't end well for you.Yog-Sothoth might have some sort of agenda...he does pop up to impregnate creepy albino women every once in a while. He also seems to be the diety of choice for cultist wizards and sorcerers. But he's also literally Space & Time. He's everywhere and everywhen. If you're opposed to him, you're opposed to the multiverse existing.
Shub-Niggurath is basically Lamashtu turned up a few notches. It's basically life and sex and mutation. If Desna is opposed to sex and life, I question her "good" status. :P
Of course, these three aren't really all that active, other than as the concepts that they embody. I can see Desna actively opposing Nyarlathotep. The thing is....does she understand his goals or motivations any better than we pitiful mortals do? It's hard to effectively oppose someone if you aren't sure what the game they're playing is.
It's not certain that the Outer Gods are as all-encompassing in Pathfinder, though. "Yog-Sothoth = Dark Tapestry" is just a theory... of those who've studied these things.
I'll agree on Azathoth. He's just there. Shub-Niggurath, much like Lamashtu, is pretty unabashedly evil... just more cryptic about it. As for Yog-Sothoth, it's hard to say whether the Spawn are his idea, or the cultists'.
I don't think opposing any of them makes you opposed to life or time or energy, though. That's... weird logic. Interesting approach for an "enlightened" cult member to use, though.
"How can you oppose my mistress? You claim to be champions of life... she is ALL LIFE!"
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There is no catch. Pharasma can and will judge herself.
If "death" for a god doesn't actually result in a loss of power, then it isn't worth referring to as death. Aroden would still be around doing his thing, after the minor inconvenience of "dying" on His Most Holy Toilet Throne.
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I disagree that Shub-Niggurath is necessarily evil. (Please note, I'm not necessarily going by Paizo's alignment tags, I'm going by what we know of these entities through Lovecraft's writings. Paizo's alignment tags for some of them seem a bit arbitrary.) It's really hard to judge, since it never actually appears in any of the stories, it's just referenced. However, just as Yog-Sothoth IS Space & Time, it would seem to make sense that Shub-Niggurath IS life and fecundity. That means that it isn't just the life and reproductive urge for it's Dark Young..it's ALL life and fecundity. Human women giving birth to fully human babies? Possible because of Shub-Niggurath.
It's worth noting that Yog-Sothoth has a benign (and occasionally even benevolent) form, 'Umr at-Tawil.
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I disagree that Shub-Niggurath is necessarily evil. (Please note, I'm not necessarily going by Paizo's alignment tags, I'm going by what we know of these entities through Lovecraft's writings. Paizo's alignment tags for some of them seem a bit arbitrary.) It's really hard to judge, since it never actually appears in any of the stories, it's just referenced. However, just as Yog-Sothoth IS Space & Time, it would seem to make sense that Shub-Niggurath IS life and fecundity. That means that it isn't just the life and reproductive urge for it's Dark Young..it's ALL life and fecundity. Human women giving birth to fully human babies? Possible because of Shub-Niggurath.
It's worth noting that Yog-Sothoth has a benign (and occasionally even benevolent) form, 'Umr at-Tawil.
This is all true. (Please assume that here, I am always referring to the Pathfinder versions, which do not necessarily seem to reflect all of the source material.)
'Umr at-Tawil is a bit obscure, since as I recall, it only appears in one of Lovecraft's collaborations, Through the Gates of the Silver Key. I seem to recall also that Lovecraft was not particularly pleased with that story - he helped write it mostly out of politeness to his co-author, and declined to continue the tale a third time. It seems likely that The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath is more reflective of his vision for Randolph Carter and the silver key.
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Although the entities worshiped by the Old Cults have little interest in the affairs of humanity, their cults and followers have nevertheless erected mythologies around them that result in areas of concern, alignments, favored weapons, and in the case of clerical followers, granted domains. While these might be artificial constructs around entities that humanity was never meant to truly comprehend, they still serve as helpful guides for generating NPC cultists, and thus are included in each entity’s entry below.
I believe that this article is the one that most of the information on Lovecraft gods in Pathfinder originates from (including alignments).
It sounds to me like it's not saying "Pathfinder thinks all Lovecraft creations except Azathoth are evil and they all operate by normal deity rules," but rather "here's some basic Pathfindery god info you can work off of to make some cultists to fight."
I wouldnt necessarily take the info from that article as eternal and unchanging.
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Preface to Lovecraft God Descriptions in Wake of the Watcher wrote:Although the entities worshiped by the Old Cults have little interest in the affairs of humanity, their cults and followers have nevertheless erected mythologies around them that result in areas of concern, alignments, favored weapons, and in the case of clerical followers, granted domains. While these might be artificial constructs around entities that humanity was never meant to truly comprehend, they still serve as helpful guides for generating NPC cultists, and thus are included in each entity’s entry below.I believe that this article is the one that most of the information on Lovecraft gods in Pathfinder originates from (including alignments).
It sounds to me like it's not saying "Pathfinder thinks all Lovecraft creations except Azathoth are evil and they all operate by normal deity rules," but rather "here's some basic Pathfindery god info you can work off of to make some cultists to fight."
Quite valid... although it seems like the cultists' concept is the power source rather than the deity, which James Jacobs is quite against.
I'm sure when he realizes that the author of this article* let this sort of thing creep into the system, his wrath shall be boundless. Legendary, even.
*James Jacobs
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Evil Midnight Lurker |
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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:There is no catch. Pharasma can and will judge herself.If "death" for a god doesn't actually result in a loss of power, then it isn't worth referring to as death. Aroden would still be around doing his thing, after the minor inconvenience of "dying" on His Most Holy Toilet Throne.
So it'd be her final act.
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UnArcaneElection |
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{. . .}
Desna might also be just as old as the Outer Gods, and actively opposes them.
{. . .}
I asked this (well, almost the same thing) once before not a few weeks ago, but since this AP has been announced, it's probably worth asking again: Could it be that Desna actually IS one of the Outer Gods or something like that? Just because most of them range from uncaring to malevolent, it doesn't mean that all of them have to. From their point of view, she might be some kid who has taken on an unhealthy amount of concern over the welfare of the mote-creatures, or even some weirdo animal rights activist or something like that. Or maybe just plain nuts.
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Zhangar wrote:{. . .}
Desna might also be just as old as the Outer Gods, and actively opposes them.
{. . .}I asked this (well, almost the same thing) once before not a few weeks ago, but since this AP has been announced, it's probably worth asking again: Could it be that Desna actually IS one of the Outer Gods or something like that? Just because most of them range from uncaring to malevolent, it doesn't mean that all of them have to. From their point of view, she might be some kid who has taken on an unhealthy amount of concern over the welfare of the mote-creatures, or even some weirdo animal rights activist or something like that. Or maybe just plain nuts.
I believe James Jacobs is on record saying that the naked space fairy look is not her original/true form.
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Hrothdane wrote:Preface to Lovecraft God Descriptions in Wake of the Watcher wrote:Although the entities worshiped by the Old Cults have little interest in the affairs of humanity, their cults and followers have nevertheless erected mythologies around them that result in areas of concern, alignments, favored weapons, and in the case of clerical followers, granted domains. While these might be artificial constructs around entities that humanity was never meant to truly comprehend, they still serve as helpful guides for generating NPC cultists, and thus are included in each entity’s entry below.I believe that this article is the one that most of the information on Lovecraft gods in Pathfinder originates from (including alignments).
It sounds to me like it's not saying "Pathfinder thinks all Lovecraft creations except Azathoth are evil and they all operate by normal deity rules," but rather "here's some basic Pathfindery god info you can work off of to make some cultists to fight."
Quite valid... although it seems like the cultists' concept is the power source rather than the deity, which James Jacobs is quite against.
I'm sure when he realizes that the author of this article* let this sort of thing creep into the system, his wrath shall be boundless. Legendary, even.
*James Jacobs
Actually, now that Desna has come up, I wonder if some of the Dark Tapestry races have their own "vision" of Desna, complete with its own domains and stuff.
In Wake of the Watcher, I had a cleric of Desna in the group. She was quite astonished to find, deep in the <redacted> lair, a shrine to a towering membranous-winged abomination made from human and elven parts... but still recognizably meant as an altar to Desna.
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It is possible/theoretical that Desna is to Golarion as Pelor was to Greyhawk/Oerth. The latter was some sort of big nasty Demon-like thing lurking on the Great Wheel when he/it hit upon the bright idea of starting up a cult to gain deific worship under the guise of "Pelor the Good Sun" or some such.
For all we know, Desna is a mask of Nyarlathotep. Or a thought projection of Azathoth, "slumming" after a fashion.
Or, it could be that She was an Outer God with what was once an agenda of deception that was 'infected' by the Good-and-Neutral stuff from all the mortal prayers and devotion as her cult became a multi-planetary religion, effecting a fundamental change.
An "amoeba rights activist", to paraphrase. Me likey.
Regarding Yog-Sothoth, I recall a fanfic series of Neon Genesis Evangelion that posited the 'vital fluid' powering the mecha in question was harvested 'slime' from Yog-Sothoth's "pool" somewhere beneath the Earth. The protagonists didn't find mundane kaiju, they fought Great Old Ones as the 'stars were coming right'. The horrors that the protagonists suffer as a result of "fighting fire with fire" was impressive. Assuming I'm remembering the "pool" as the correct entity, of course.