Paizo is a game company.
If a game company doesn't publish books on a regular basis then then join the myriad other game companies that have died in the past.
Traditionally more people buy books with crunch in them than books with fluff.
It's hard to evaluate all of the side effects of new crunch in a diverse ruleset.
Different tables have different playstyles, and therefore need different material.
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And there's another 1 to add to the list of threads in the WOTR section that read "Mythic killed our game."How do you take my telling you that it's working for us as a +1 for a thread where it doesn't?
Nah, I meant that it's against the large amount of negative threads. I didn't include this in the negative, I'm just saying it's still very lopsided even with your vote towards "Mythic DIDN'T ruin my game."
So... your box was exactly the size of "make martials and casters the same" and you're suggesting it isn't a small box? Huh. That's never what Mythic was advertised as being. I believe that product is called "4e", and I don't mean that as a slur.
If the game is "does the product give martials nice things while nerfing casters", you're going to hate pretty much every product with crunch.
Where did I say that? I'm aware of path of war, I like it, I've written my own homebrew and honestly I like TOB more than POW. Nice 4e slam though, never heard that before...
What I'm saying is Paizo is seemingly terrified of letting melee do anything other than "banging two things together." As stated, you think it's okay for martials to only have 1 thing that they're good at, that's fine, I don't. I never said "Martials have to be casters" and it's insulting that whenever someone wants to give martials new abilities that aren't just 'bigger numbers', that's the same dead horse that's been beaten to death years ago that you trot out from the stables of "I don't have any new arguments" to show off like it's some new and fresh concept.
Hell, Barbarian gets pseudo magical things that can do that avoid this (scent, flight, cutting through magic, etc), which I applaud, but for the most part, these barbarian abilities are honestly more 'mythic' than the mythic abilities that were offered for martials.
Bottom line since I'm getting off topic, mythic was NOT a balanced book, and the large amount of flack it gets should be enough to show that for a good many people, it was NOT what we were looking for with this kind of content. Maybe I'm just looking for Paizo to break new ground with martials instead of tying them to the same post of "sword with different numbers" that we've been playing forever.
My problem with the Vigilante is that Paizo has already locked themselves into having a Vigilante base class, and no amount of playtesting will convince me that this is a good idea. It doesn't matter how good the class becomes; it's not something that should be a class. Paizo should have publically playtested the idea before committing themselves to printing it.The tremendous shouts of applause when the idea was announced at the Paizocon dinner beg to differ. No one is twisting your arms to play the class or buy the book. You've got plenty of time to cancel your subscription and reup it later if you wish.
I'm not going to go that far. Honestly, I think this is the first time I've ever hit this level of anger at something game-related -- taking a step back, I recognize behavior in myself that I've rolled my eyes at in others.
...now I feel like a walk-on character in Shortpacked! n.n;
Paizo is a game company.
If a game company doesn't publish books on a regular basis then then join the myriad other game companies that have died in the past.
Traditionally more people buy books with crunch in them than books with fluff.
It's hard to evaluate all of the side effects of new crunch in a diverse ruleset.
Different tables have different playstyles, and therefore need different material.
On top of that: if a class is too good at what it does (and there are limited roles) then it's broken, and if it's not good enough then it's useless. Which means you need adventures tailored to certain classes which seems antithetical to the spirit of tabletop gaming, IMO.
Still better than video game devs who rush glitchy betas to the market, then sell the patches as overpriced DLC, then nerf the patched content. But a business is a business either way.
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Still better than video game devs who rush glitchy betas to the market, then sell the patches as overpriced DLC, then nerf the patched content. But a business is a business either way.
Uhm... Isn't that functionally what happened with ACG? Rush a bad book to print, charge full price, put out a companion splat with "extra" questionably worthwhile content, errata the original book into oblivion to the degree that you can't actually look at your 1st ed printing of ACG and know how any of it is supposed to work. Frankly, that's exactly how bad video game publishers do it, and it is beneath the quality and dedication to their customer base that early pathfinder was all about. Hopefully they are moving in a different direction now, but my confidence is shaken.
Uhm... Isn't that functionally what happened with ACG? Rush a bad book to print, charge full price, put out a companion splat with "extra" questionably worthwhile content, errata the original book into oblivion to the degree that you can't actually look at your 1st ed printing of ACG and know how any of it is supposed to work. Frankly, that's exactly how bad video game publishers do it, and it is beneath the quality and dedication to their customer base that early pathfinder was all about. Hopefully they are moving in a different direction now, but my confidence is shaken.
Yeah... Honestly, I'd like the ability to show that I bought the book and get a PDF with the errata applied. I never buy the PDFs because I just find it so much clunkier at the table than a physical book, but keeping up with that much errata is kind of ridiculous. The errata PDF was what, 9 pages or so?
Yeah... Honestly, I'd like the ability to show that I bought the book and get a PDF with the errata applied. I never buy the PDFs because I just find it so much clunkier at the table than a physical book, but keeping up with that much errata is kind of ridiculous. The errata PDF was what, 9 pages or so?
Yup. Sadly it isn't just hyperbole to say that I cannot use my ACG as a meaningful and trustworthy reference document. Sure there is errata to other stuff, but most of it is isolated and doesn't effect the entirety of a book. With the ACG I can't keep track of all the changes, and since pretty much every good archetype or ability got nerfed, I'd have to double check any content I wanted to use. Sad I spent money on it. Posted an amazon review warning others not to buy it... hopefully I saved some cash strapped gamers $30 of wasted money.
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well they can't all be winners...I'm sure the paizo staff is none too pleased with having to release so many errata.
I passed on the ACG (luckily) , I looked through it and it just seemed "funky" (technical term) to me.
I do use the Mythic book and I'm very pleased with it...I don't let players pick abilities from it themselves though. I just view it as a book of rewards that I can grant players for good play and achieving goals.
I can definitely see how the Mythic book could be game breaking...if you just hand it to the players and let them optimize with it.
It is especially good for making tough enemies.
I keep meaning to get Mythic, but haven't yet. It sounds like it has some fun ideas in it that I could find a use for.
I liked the ACG, and got it on release. I've used it in games without any problem, and intend to keep using it without the errata.
I had no interest in the Vigilante class thematically, but after watching the playtest I intend to get the book for the systems. It looks like an attempt at building a semi-classless ala carte features approach, which is a great idea.
What were you complaining about?
I was pointing out that perhaps a hardcover that needed almost 9 pages of errata was rushed. I learned about the production schedule at PaizoCon this year; it's pretty stringent and relies on the writers to do playtesting and still meet deadlines. I'm glad you like the ACG as is (was). But Paizo apparently didn't. Many think, as I do, that there were many good ideas that were overpowered; but then the cure made that same stuff not worth it. Many also notice that the nerf bat is wielded routinely against feats and archetypes that did not receive extensive playtesting, whichever hardcover happens to have them.
The Advanced Class Guide, by the nature of all of the other classes and archetypes already published, was going to have more niche content that would be less widely accepted. Considering that some people don't like/use parts of the Core Rulebook, having some overlap and/or different options to meet certain concepts, as well as pushing in some new directions, I'd say it was an overall success. There are certain concepts I can now achieve with the ACG that didn't work very well before and there is a broader palette of concepts that are "ready to go" from 1st level. Some things don't suit my tastes, but I'm not about to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Mythic Adventures was always going to be a niche product. One thing that seems to never be mentioned by the detractors is that gaining mythic tiers is 100% in the narrative control of the GM. You can run a "mythic game" where the PCs only gain one or two mythic tiers (at any point in their careers); you don't have to go to 20 levels/10 mythic tiers. Look at Mythic Adventures like a spice rack: using it too much can overwhelm the base product.
Of course any release can be a 'spice rack' for the GM. Nice analogy, by the way. But Paizo put out a hardcover for 40 bucks with 20/10. I don't think they release hardcovers intending to sell at 'niche' numbers. And, as I said, I like the ideas of the ACG (I own it). I intend to check out Occult Adventures myself. Here's hoping the feats and archetypes are fun, balanced and can survive actual play.
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And how many campaigns go all the way to 20th level without mythic? Historically, not many. Yet all of the base classes in all of the books since the Core Rulebook have a full 20 level progression; otherwise, people would be whining about "incomplete" products (or if Paizo released material based on "tiers," like the old BECMI D&D, they'd be whining about it being a plot to "force" customers to buy multiple "expansion" books like some MMOs).
Mythic Adventures is (more or less) a "complete" set of rules to add on top of the "normal" Pathfinder ruleset. It allows a group to set their own desired power level; when it comes to rules, it's easier to limit or remove what's already published to reduce the power level than it is to add new houserules to increase the power level (without just bland "bigger numbers," which was IMO one of the main drawbacks in the 3.x Epic Level Handbook).