petition to allow more free rebuild options due to ACG changes


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3/5

The Fox wrote:


My understanding is No.

That is also my understanding, my question was meant for Compton to provoke a definitive "No, and there will be no change on this issue, you're going to have to absorb the hit to your character wealth incurred by erratum related rebuilding." Or a "Good catch! Let's let any who are rebuilding at this juncture sell back at full price, with the understanding that future rebuilds will be governed by the new rules the guide put in place" or some strange middle ground that will surely confuse and frighten me...

3/5 5/5

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The Fox wrote:
That is such a long and awkward title.

I think the main thing that makes it feel awkward is the words "Guild Guide" right next to each other. If it were "Guide to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Guild" it'd be better.

4/5

I hate to be Debbie downer but you sawtooth Saber build should not work for a few reasons.

1) red mantis assassins are evil and in opposition with Pathfinders. So by wanting to be one, you are wanting to not be a Pathfinder.

2) Slashing grace would have only ever worked on your main hand due to your offhand counting as a light weapon and therefore not being a legal target for old slashing grace.

Grand Lodge 4/5

GM Hills wrote:

I hate to be Debbie downer but you sawtooth Saber build should not work for a few reasons.

1) red mantis assassins are evil and in opposition with Pathfinders. So by wanting to be one, you are wanting to not be a Pathfinder.

RMAs are not directly opposed to the Pathfinders. They have come to blows on occasion, but they're not outright enemies.

GM Hills wrote:
2) Slashing grace would have only ever worked on your main hand due to your offhand counting as a light weapon and therefore not being a legal target for old slashing grace.

Incorrect. Sawtooth Sabres explicitly only count as light for TWF, they're always a one-handed weapon for all other purposes.

4/5

They are evil. Pathfinders aren't evil. You can't be one, thus you are striving to be something in opposition to Pathfinders. While they might not be at war with, they are in no ways something Pathfinders would want to associate with. Banned class and all.

As far as the weapon goes, in order for you to be using it for two weapon fighting it is being trated as a light weapon. Even with the caveat at the end, I would rule without someone with authority saying otherwise, that during the act, it is a light weapon.

Grand Lodge 4/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
GM Hills wrote:
They are evil. Pathfinders aren't evil. You can't be one, thus you are striving to be something in opposition to Pathfinders. While they might not be at war with, they are in no ways something Pathfinders would want to associate with. Banned class and all.

PC Pathfinders cannot have the evil alignment, there's no such in universe restriction. And while the PrC requires an evil alignment, worship of Achaekek doesn't.

GM Hills wrote:

As far as the weapon goes, in order for you to be using it for two weapon fighting it is being trated as a light weapon. Even with the caveat at the end, I would rule without someone with authority saying otherwise, that during the act, it is a light weapon.

How about the weapon itself?

Quote:
If you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (sawtooth sabre) feat, for the purpose of two-weapon fighting you can treat it as a light melee weapon; for all other purposes it is one-handed melee weapon.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Thanks John, have fun at Gencon.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

Jeff Merola wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
They are evil. Pathfinders aren't evil. You can't be one, thus you are striving to be something in opposition to Pathfinders. While they might not be at war with, they are in no ways something Pathfinders would want to associate with. Banned class and all.

PC Pathfinders cannot have the evil alignment, there's no such in universe restriction. And while the PrC requires an evil alignment, worship of Achaekek doesn't.

That said, the fact that this makes it harder to play Red Mantis Assassin look a likes makes my happy in much the same way that the prohibition against Elf Racial Darksight and darkskin makes it harder to play Drizzit clones makes me happy.

There are probably lots of people who have good, legitimate reasons for wanting to play an assassin knockoff. (and since I like Fox, and they seem reasonable most of the time, I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are one of these.) But there seem to be more people in PFS who want to play CN profession(assassin) characters that are evil in everything but name, because assassins are cool. There are scenarios where "I'm basically a red mantis assassin" could cause some serious problems in the scenario.

Grand Lodge 4/5

FLite wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
They are evil. Pathfinders aren't evil. You can't be one, thus you are striving to be something in opposition to Pathfinders. While they might not be at war with, they are in no ways something Pathfinders would want to associate with. Banned class and all.

PC Pathfinders cannot have the evil alignment, there's no such in universe restriction. And while the PrC requires an evil alignment, worship of Achaekek doesn't.

That said, the fact that this makes it harder to play Red Mantis Assassin look a likes makes my happy in much the same way that the prohibition against Elf Racial Darksight and darkskin makes it harder to play Drizzit clones makes me happy.

There are probably lots of people who have good, legitimate reasons for wanting to play an assassin knockoff. (and since I like Fox, and they seem reasonable most of the time, I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are one of these.) But there seem to be more people in PFS who want to play CN profession(assassin) characters that are evil in everything but name, because assassins are cool. There are scenarios where "I'm basically a red mantis assassin" could cause some serious problems in the scenario.

If they're imitating the RMAs, they're Lawful, actually.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Jeff Merola wrote:
FLite wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
GM Hills wrote:
They are evil. Pathfinders aren't evil. You can't be one, thus you are striving to be something in opposition to Pathfinders. While they might not be at war with, they are in no ways something Pathfinders would want to associate with. Banned class and all.

PC Pathfinders cannot have the evil alignment, there's no such in universe restriction. And while the PrC requires an evil alignment, worship of Achaekek doesn't.

That said, the fact that this makes it harder to play Red Mantis Assassin look a likes makes my happy in much the same way that the prohibition against Elf Racial Darksight and darkskin makes it harder to play Drizzit clones makes me happy.

There are probably lots of people who have good, legitimate reasons for wanting to play an assassin knockoff. (and since I like Fox, and they seem reasonable most of the time, I give them the benefit of the doubt that they are one of these.) But there seem to be more people in PFS who want to play CN profession(assassin) characters that are evil in everything but name, because assassins are cool. There are scenarios where "I'm basically a red mantis assassin" could cause some serious problems in the scenario.

If they're imitating the RMAs, they're Lawful, actually.

Well...my own RMA wannabe (Trixie) was CG. The point was that she was not a Red Mantis Assassin. That's why I chose halfling. She was a slave who was freed when a Red Mantis Assassin filled a contract on Trixie's owner. She saw the whole thing from the cupboard she was hiding in. She has no in-game way of knowing what alignment the RMAs are. She probably has some sense that they are evil. All she knows is that the woman who freed her was a badass and ended her slavery. That was enough for Trixie to want to emulate her.*

I'm more of the mind that people should be able to play the characters they want to play. As long as they are not disrupting the table, I don't really care what character they use, and disruption tends to be a player issue anyway.

Of course, in the case of my RMA wannabe, all of this discussion is academic at this point. I have rebuilt her using John's generous rebuild offer. Since she had a wand of reduce person bought with prestige that could not be returned, I built a character that will still find that item useful. I think he'll be at least as fun as she was. I just need to work out some of the finer details of his background.

* Game of Thrones Spoiler:
Her story is somewhat similar to Arya's story in Game of Thrones, actually. Arya is either N or CN. The Faceless are probably LE or LN. Interestingly, I created Trixie before reading or seeing Arya's story in Game of Thrones.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

I don't get the hate against RMA wannabes. We have lots of priests of evil gods, too. And people wanting to play something because it's cool - isn't wish fulfilment the whole point of RPGs?

It should be noted that the iconic Slayer is a pretty effective assassin/"will it blend" kitchen machine. Though not dex-based, he still gets off lots of off-hand attacks.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5

John Compton wrote:

The Advanced Class Guide errata is out, as is the updated Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, which contains expanded guidelines for rebuilding one’s character when the campaign bans an previously permitted character option or errata revises a rule. I think the Guide covers a lot of the changes pretty well, including how to handle re-priced items, the Charisma-based limit on an arcanist’s Consume Magic Items ability (this is a Charisma-based class ability, after all), the spell level change for contingent action, and many others. There are other situations for which these guidelines don’t present a reasonable fix, and perhaps the general guidelines are worth revisiting further soon after Gen Con.

In the meantime, there are many characters for which retraining a feat chain is insufficient, and it’s clear that the collective breadth of the errata requires greater flexibility to resolve properly—especially with Gen Con just about to begin.

  • Characters that relied on Slashing Grace qualify for a rebuild as though an ability-score-dependent class feature had changed. Sell back any weapons, armor, and equipment associated with the character’s fighting style (e.g. something improving two-weapon fighting or the like—be a fair judge of what makes sense) at their full price.
  • Characters that have levels in a class archetype—or another class option such as a magus arcana—that granted the opportune parry and riposte deed can freely retrain any levels in a class that grants those features. They may also sell back any equipment that no long functions properly based on retraining (e.g. a monk weapon if you retrained levels in kata master).
  • John, I have been using the Sacred huntsmaster archetype for the inquisitor and they lost the solo tactics class ability. This drastically affects all of the teamwork feats that he has taken and renders them practically useless without retraining multiple feats.

    I would like to just change back to being a normal inquisitor but to retrain the class features would cost 20 prestige. Is there any chance that characters that lost access to a class feature that impacts the effectiveness of their feats can get some kind of limited rebuild?

    Grand Lodge 3/5 *

    Do you really plan to not be adjacent(or on) your AC most of the time? The idea is you don't need solo tactics because you AC gets your teamwork feats and you both benefit

    Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5

    Kaelryr wrote:
    Do you really plan to not be adjacent(or on) your AC most of the time? The idea is you don't need solo tactics because you AC gets your teamwork feats and you both benefit

    The character uses a ranged weapon so my current options are to retrain feats so that I can pick up snapshot or abandon the archetype, honestly I find having a companion more trouble at PFS tables than a huge benefit so would rather be able to become a normal inquisitor. I will train into snapshot if i have to.

    Grand Lodge 2/5

    John Compton wrote:

    The Advanced Class Guide errata is out, as is the updated Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide, which contains expanded guidelines for rebuilding one’s character when the campaign bans an previously permitted character option or errata revises a rule. I think the Guide covers a lot of the changes pretty well, including how to handle re-priced items, the Charisma-based limit on an arcanist’s Consume Magic Items ability (this is a Charisma-based class ability, after all), the spell level change for contingent action, and many others. There are other situations for which these guidelines don’t present a reasonable fix, and perhaps the general guidelines are worth revisiting further soon after Gen Con.

    In the meantime, there are many characters for which retraining a feat chain is insufficient, and it’s clear that the collective breadth of the errata requires greater flexibility to resolve properly—especially with Gen Con just about to begin.

  • Characters that relied on Slashing Grace qualify for a rebuild as though an ability-score-dependent class feature had changed. Sell back any weapons, armor, and equipment associated with the character’s fighting style (e.g. something improving two-weapon fighting or the like—be a fair judge of what makes sense) at their full price.
  • Characters that have levels in a class archetype—or another class option such as a magus arcana—that granted the opportune parry and riposte deed can freely retrain any levels in a class that grants those features. They may also sell back any equipment that no long functions properly based on retraining (e.g. a monk weapon if you retrained levels in kata master).
  • Does this apply to the new Fencing Grace errata?

    5/5 5/55/55/5

    It really should, since they're the same thing pretty much

    Grand Lodge 2/5

    I agree but until someone official comes along and says as much it doesn't.

    Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    Which is why they should just say if you had something that was changed or clarified by official update, FAQ or campaign clarifications, you can rebuild your character, sell back equipment etc.

    I'd rather have a very liberal rebuild option in place then having to revisit this topic every time a rules change nerfs a build.

    Prior to PFS, I played in Living Forgotten Realms where you could do a complete rebuild of your character (except for name) at every level up.

    It didn't detract from my fun one bit.

    Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

    Michael Hallet wrote:


    Prior to PFS, I played in Living Forgotten Realms where you could do a complete rebuild of your character (except for name) at every level up.

    It didn't detract from my fun one bit.

    While I am a very strong proponent of liberal rebuild options when things change I think that went too far (and did when I played LFR). For example, one chose stats so as to always maximize the benefits (no taking a 17 at level 1)

    Grand Lodge 2/5

    So does fencing grace errata qualify for the slashing grace errata rebuild?

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