Third level paladin spells; seems like they suck?


Advice


So I just had a Paladin make 10 level gaining access to 3rd Level Paladin spells. I have read them and a few are ok (Deadly Juggernaut, Burst of Speed, Litany of Escape) but none really jump out like Hero's Defiance (1st) or Paladin's Sacrifice (2nd). Am I missing something?


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Uh.

Flight
Long-term weapon buffing
Mass energy resistance
See invisibility

Oh, and as a 2nd-level spell, you're forgetting Litany of Righteousness.


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Also consider that you're getting access to many of the important out-of-combat Cleric status removal spells.


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Dispel Magic, and Prayer are also 3rd level. If you don’t have a cleric in the party both these spells are useful especially prayer. Prayer may not seem like much of a spell, but it is actually very useful.


Angelic Aspect gives a whole crop of bonuses at once, which is nice.


The best 3rd level Paladin spell is Extended Litany of Righteousness.

Well, that hyperbole, almost nothing ever survives a single successful casting of that.

But Greater Magic Weapon at level 10 is at best a +1 buff, Resist Energy can be cast by anyone in the party, and Dispel Magic is even more of a trap option for a paladin than i t is for a regular caster.


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Unsanctioned Knowledge = Haste or Displacement


My Self wrote:

Uh.

Flight
Long-term weapon buffing
Mass energy resistance
See invisibility

Oh, and as a 2nd-level spell, you're forgetting Litany of Righteousness.

Thanks for the links and suggestions, glad I posted. Angelic Aspect is not in the PRD spell list and is pretty useful. I will definitely add it.

Magic weapon greater is ok, but since almost any class can caste it I would not memorize it as a Paladin. Plus at 10th level I think most combat characters are going to have a +2 primary weapon.

Energy resistance anyone can cast again so I would rarely memorize/use it.

Litany of Sight has potential except for the 1 rd duration is a massive limitation.


My Self wrote:
Also consider that you're getting access to many of the important out-of-combat Cleric status removal spells.

I agree access is useful, but the Paladin CL being -3 from class level really limits the usefulness of any spell requiring a CL check or opposed roll.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Dispel Magic, and Prayer are also 3rd level. If you don’t have a cleric in the party both these spells are useful especially prayer. Prayer may not seem like much of a spell, but it is actually very useful.

Thanks for the suggestions. I agree prayer is useful, but if a group has a cleric/shaman/Etc. that can cast prayer a paladin will leave it to them.

With the CL-3 penalty for paladins I don't think much of dispel magic for paladins.


Thaago wrote:

Angelic Aspect gives a whole crop of bonuses at once, which is nice.

Thanks for the suggestion. Angelic Aspect is pretty good and not listed in the PRD spell index so I'm glad you posted it.


Casual Viking wrote:

The best 3rd level Paladin spell is Extended Litany of Righteousness.

Well, that hyperbole, almost nothing ever survives a single successful casting of that.

But Greater Magic Weapon at level 10 is at best a +1 buff, Resist Energy can be cast by anyone in the party, and Dispel Magic is even more of a trap option for a paladin than i t is for a regular caster.

Litany of Righteousness, Extended has potential at the price of making Extend his next feat. I think this is probably worth taking the feat. Thanks for posting it. I could also add the extend feat to Litany of Sloth or Grace.

It does also back up my point that 3rd level paladin spells are not that great when the best 3rd level spell is a 2nd level spell extended.

Grand Lodge

Well duh, paladins don't have spells when they're only level 3.


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Big Blue 22 wrote:

[

Magic weapon greater is ok.....Plus at 10th level I think most combat characters are going to have a +2 primary weapon.

No, no, no. You're looking at it completely backwards.

If you have access to Greater Magic Weapon, you should not purchase a +2 weapon. Ever. Instead, get a weapon with special abilities. Take a look at some Magic Weapon Special Abilities. Some are good, some are bad, but all of them do something. If you didn't have greater magic weapon, getting any of those abilities would mean not being able to buy enhancement bonuses for your weapon. But WITH greater magic weapon, you can have the best weapon special abilities while still getting a high enhancement bonus for free!

The only possible advantage of a weapon with a straight enhancement bonus over GMW+special weapon properties is the ability to bypass some types of Damage Reduction. Putting aside the relative rarity of those types of DR, you're a paladin. Your Smite Evil bypasses all damage reduction. Once you have GMW, you have no reason whatsoever to use a weapon with a built-in enhancement bonus higher than +1. Spend the gold on non-weapon things, or on other enhancements to your weapon.


137ben wrote:
Big Blue 22 wrote:

[

Magic weapon greater is ok.....Plus at 10th level I think most combat characters are going to have a +2 primary weapon.

No, no, no. You're looking at it completely backwards.

If you have access to Greater Magic Weapon, you should not purchase a +2 weapon. Ever. Instead, get a weapon with special abilities. Take a look at some Magic Weapon Special Abilities. Some are good, some are bad, but all of them do something. If you didn't have greater magic weapon, getting any of those abilities would mean not being able to buy enhancement bonuses for your weapon. But WITH greater magic weapon, you can have the best weapon special abilities while still getting a high enhancement bonus for free!

The only possible advantage of a weapon with a straight enhancement bonus over GMW+special weapon properties is the ability to bypass some types of Damage Reduction. Putting aside the relative rarity of those types of DR, you're a paladin. Your Smite Evil bypasses all damage reduction. Once you have GMW, you have no reason whatsoever to use a weapon with a built-in enhancement bonus higher than +1. Spend the gold on non-weapon things, or on other enhancements to your weapon.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thaago wrote:

Angelic Aspect gives a whole crop of bonuses at once, which is nice.

Don't you have to be an assaimar to use it?


LazarX wrote:
Thaago wrote:

Angelic Aspect gives a whole crop of bonuses at once, which is nice.

Don't you have to be an assaimar to use it?

Not according to the spell itself, no. You do need to convince your GM to allow Champions of Purity, as you do with everything, but barring house rules Angelic Aspect is not tied to any specific race.

Grand Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Thaago wrote:

Angelic Aspect gives a whole crop of bonuses at once, which is nice.

Don't you have to be an assaimar to use it?

Doesn't look like it.

Angelic Aspect, Lesser wrote:


Source Champions of Purity pg. 28 (Amazon)
School transmutation [good]; Level arcanist 2, cleric/oracle 2, paladin 2, red mantis assassin 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, warpriest 2
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
You take on an aspect of an angelic being, including some of its physical characteristics. You gain lowlight vision, resistance to acid 5, resistance to cold 5, and the benefits of protection from evil.

Contrast that with

Paragon Surge wrote:


Source Advanced Race Guide pg. 1 (Amazon)
School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 3, arcanist 3, bloodrager 3, cleric/oracle 3, investigator 3, magus 4, paladin 4, red mantis assassin 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, warpriest 3, witch 3 (half-elf)
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Effect
Range personal (half-elf only)
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level
Description
You surge with ancestral power, temporarily embodying all the strengths of both elvenkind and humankind simultaneously, and transforming into a paragon of both races, something greater than elf or human alone. Unlike with most polymorph effects, your basic form does not change, so you keep all extraordinary and supernatural abilities of your half-elven form as well as all of your gear.

For the duration of the spell, you receive a +2 enhancement bonus to Dexterity and Intelligence and are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites, chosen when you cast this spell.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Big Blue 22 wrote:
Second, if he is campaigning he has to either know he is going into combat ahead of time to cast it or he has to take the first round of combat to buff his weapon.

Greater Magic Weapon lasts 1 hour per level, so by 10th level you're getting to the point where it'll be on almost all day.

EDIT: I have no idea how this ended up above the post I quoted, but...


Big Blue 22 wrote:
137ben wrote:
Big Blue 22 wrote:

[

Magic weapon greater is ok.....Plus at 10th level I think most combat characters are going to have a +2 primary weapon.

No, no, no. You're looking at it completely backwards.

If you have access to Greater Magic Weapon, you should not purchase a +2 weapon. Ever. Instead, get a weapon with special abilities. Take a look at some Magic Weapon Special Abilities. Some are good, some are bad, but all of them do something. If you didn't have greater magic weapon, getting any of those abilities would mean not being able to buy enhancement bonuses for your weapon. But WITH greater magic weapon, you can have the best weapon special abilities while still getting a high enhancement bonus for free!

The only possible advantage of a weapon with a straight enhancement bonus over GMW+special weapon properties is the ability to bypass some types of Damage Reduction. Putting aside the relative rarity of those types of DR, you're a paladin. Your Smite Evil bypasses all damage reduction. Once you have GMW, you have no reason whatsoever to use a weapon with a built-in enhancement bonus higher than +1. Spend the gold on non-weapon things, or on other enhancements to your weapon.

I understand your position, but I totally disagree with it. In my experience a lot of things in Pathfinder sound good when you read the rule, but don't work very well in practice.

To start you have to put +1 on the weapon before you put on any of the special abilities you suggest. So finally at 13th level paladin (Caster Level 10) he finally gets to +2 (an extra +1 because they don't stack). Then at 18th level +3 (an extra +2), etc.

Second, if he is campaigning he has to either know he is going into combat ahead of time to cast it or he has to take the first round of combat to buff his weapon.

Third, his divine bond already does the same thing better than this spell. Divine Bond specifically says the enhancement bonus stacks with any bonus already on the weapon.


Also keep in mind that like many Divine casters Paladins can pick entirely new spells each day - that flexibility is one of the strongest aspects of a divine caster (other than an Oracle). One day you might focus your spells on combat utility - but the next day perhaps you need more out-of-combat spells. Also the usefulness of many spells varies considerably by your party makeup - a party with out another divine caster will be very happy that the Paladin has access to some spells even if at a lower CL.

(also don't forget that the combination of mercies and spells can be helpful especially if the cleric goes down - and that a Paladin can use divine scrolls of those spells)

re- taking the Extend metamagic - if you have a higher level Cleric just have that cleric prepare Blessings of Fervor - one of the options for anyone under that spell is to cast any spell of level 2 or lower with FREE metamagic (Extend, Enlarge, Silent or Still) - rather a ridiculous spell and in the right party useful to cast even out of combat just to let the whole party buff with free metamagic. And personally I don't think extended Litany of Rightousness is all that powerful - it will last for 2 rounds instead of 1 round - but hopefully you are casting it on your smite target and in a round when your allies are in position to also benefit (if you have allies with good auras).

Instead I would suggest focusing on spells that have utility for longer and/or for when you have run out of smites (or don't have evil opponents). Angelic Aspect is well neigh broken (and greater angelic aspect as a level 4 Paladin spell is rather awesome - true speech, lesser globe of invulnerability (20') and magic circle against evil and a fly speed of 60 and DR 10/evil and some immunities and resistances, a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus to saves against evil opponents and low light vision and dark vision - all from a single spell! Oh and the protective aura applies to anyone within 20'.


ZZTRaider wrote:
Big Blue 22 wrote:
Second, if he is campaigning he has to either know he is going into combat ahead of time to cast it or he has to take the first round of combat to buff his weapon.

Greater Magic Weapon lasts 1 hour per level, so by 10th level you're getting to the point where it'll be on almost all day.

EDIT: I have no idea how this ended up above the post I quoted, but...

Ok, agreed that 7 hours (apply the -3CL penalty) is still a pretty significant amount of time.

Your replied to my comment that I deleted and reposted as a reply to the previous comments.

Silver Crusade

IMO, if you're open to the Greater Magic Weapon strategy and your cleric (ideally powered by a strand of prayer beads) or wizard isn't providing the greater magic weapon, then you're doing it wrong. +3 (+4 if you boost clvl with a bead of karma) is better than +2 at level 12.

Prayer is likewise pretty lackluster. Its duration limits it to being cast during combat and it will very rarely be a good use of a paladin's turn to give everyone +1/+1 rather than simply smiting something into the ground. I'm not impressed by angelic aspect either. Communal resist energy is far better if you need energy resistance and magic circle against evil is a better way to get protection from evil. (And also lasts long enough to be pre-cast).

Angelic aspect is good, but primarily for the flight. The rest of the spell is better achieved with resist energy or magic circle vs evil (which is actually a pretty good spell--long duration (especially extended with a lesser rod of extend spell) and provides a variety of useful bonuses.

Otherwise, Fires of Judgement is potentially useful--a good way to add damage and make yourself more sticky. Greater Shield of Fortification and Greater Stunning Barrier are also potentially useful spells. Litany of Sight deserves mention if only because it's otherwise hard for a paladin to see invisible creatures--even for one round. It's not a good spell but it's hard to duplicate the ability and the other options are pretty lackluster.


If you happen to have a mount, then heal mount is pretty amazing.

Magic circle against evil/chaos, as someone pointed out, can be precast, meaning it doesn't affect action economy at all.

Blade of bright victory is pretty handy against incorporeal undead or anything with DR/weapon-type. Somewhat situational, but a lot of divine spells are.

Blessing of the mole is one way of getting darkvision if you don't already have it. Very handy in some situations.

Nondetection is very good for infiltration scenarios.

And I like prayer a lot better than some casters. Buff your friends, debuff your foes, bonuses get crazy if you have the Fate's Favored trait. Sure, charge-and-smite is often better, but not all combats start with a clear charge lane to the nastiest monster.


tonyz wrote:

If you happen to have a mount, then heal mount is pretty amazing.

Magic circle against evil/chaos, as someone pointed out, can be precast, meaning it doesn't affect action economy at all.

Blade of bright victory is pretty handy against incorporeal undead or anything with DR/weapon-type. Somewhat situational, but a lot of divine spells are.

Blessing of the mole is one way of getting darkvision if you don't already have it. Very handy in some situations.

Nondetection is very good for infiltration scenarios.

And I like prayer a lot better than some casters. Buff your friends, debuff your foes, bonuses get crazy if you have the Fate's Favored trait. Sure, charge-and-smite is often better, but not all combats start with a clear charge lane to the nastiest monster.

Regarding Heal mount, it says it works as a Heal spell on the paladins mount.

In the description of Heal it says the following: "It also cures 10 hit points of damage per level of the caster, to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level."
Would that be the Paladins caster level or class level?


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"level" in a spell description is caster level, unless otherwise specified. It's still a lot of hit points plus all the status-removal effects.


tonyz wrote:
"level" in a spell description is caster level, unless otherwise specified. It's still a lot of hit points plus all the status-removal effects.

With the Magical Knack trait, a Paladin's caster level is nearly the same as their class level. Way down the road (because it is expensive), an Orange Prism Ioun Stone will close the final gap.


The goto 3rd level my paladins use is burst of speed. The ability to move through large enemies (medium enemies if you're a halfling or other small paladin) creates tactical advantages that are not to be sneered at. The others have their uses, but I almost always keep burst of speed on my memorized spell list.

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