Hypothetical Caster-Killer


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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So let's say that you and your party of 6 seasoned 12th level martial combatants are camped out in a dungeon. None of you are 2/3 casters or higher, and none of you know alchemy. Now, word has come around that in 10 minutes, a team of 6 fullcasters is going to be raiding your dungeon. You've got a 150x150x50 square room with 4 doors- one 10-foot wide flimsy wooden gate in the middle of each wall. Outside of each gate is a 10-foot wide hallway that goes for 20 feet, then opens into other rooms that you aren't allowed to go in to for reasons. The room is made of stone, and has ratty old tapestries on the walls. There's a slightly smashed chandelier in the middle of the room, and torch brackets on each wall. There are a few miscellaneous chairs and tables and desks, as well as a small bookshelf and a weapon rack. You've got 3 barrels of grain, 2 barrels of water, 1 barrel of moonshine. You also have a thin 10x10 sheet of lead. You know that there's one door that's safe, but you're not sure which of the other 3 doors they could arrive through. You do not know if your enemies have scried your location already. You know that these casters will fight intelligently, but you know that they also will not and cannot stay in the rooms on the other end of the hallways, for reasons.

You're up against:
12th level Schrodinger's Wizard
12th level Battle Cleric
12th level Bouda Witch
12th level Wildshape-focused Druid
12th level Summoning-focused Sorcerer
12th level Oracle Necromancer

So how do you build your party?


Guilty bump.


Focus on that Diplomacy score to convincingly beg for your life.

Also, at least half of those guys won't be walking through the doors.


But they have to at least stay in the hallway, which is only 10x20, because reasons. Reasons being that there needs to be some semblance of fairness. Maybe a little tiny shred. Hopefully.


My Self wrote:
But they have to at least stay in the hallway, which is only 10x20, because reasons. Reasons being that there needs to be some semblance of fairness. Maybe a little tiny shred. Hopefully.

What I meant was, the Druid is Earth Gliding through the ceiling, the Wizard is teleporting in invisibly, etc.


Ah.

How do you think you would counter that?


Actual tactical advice would be to pour out the alcohol to ignite it, but conflagrations do piddly damage and concentration checks are easy.


Edit: Among your barrels of grain, you also have 3 sacks of flour, a couple sandviches, a jar of jam, and 1d4+1 pieces of steak.

Edit: You are 6 12th level characters with PC-level wealth and gear. Your enemies are also 6 12th level characters with PC-level wealth and gear.


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My Self wrote:

Ah.

How do you think you would counter that?

Have the entire party min-max disguise.

Fake being chairs.

Hope that nothing with scent or tremor sense (druid, ACs, some familiars) comes near them, and hope that none of the casters are using Detect spells(e.g. detect thoughts) or have improved familiars with constant detect SLAs(e.g. Lykerian Azatas have Detect Magic/Evil).

Of course, this would be a lot likely to work if disguise actually let you fake being inanimate objects...UMD a wand of silent image?


Recall that you have a 20x20 sheet of the poor man's divination blocker.


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My Self wrote:
Recall that you have a 20x20 sheet of the poor man's divination blocker.

Of course, the lead sheet doesn't make itself and everything behind it invisible. If I saw a random lead sheet in the middle of the room, it would be Dazing Fireball time (or at least I would send a summon/familiar to scout ahead and check behind it). It's a fairly limited tool when the goal is to avoid detection


Hide in a barrel?

Also, what builds would you have the martial characters use?


Our sheet went from 10 by 10 (4 squares) to 20 by 20 (8 squares) in this latest update.

Enough to create a box with six squares that's divination proof, and can be coloured and textured (and air holed) to hide one member of the party from scrying that permits the sight of the caster or mundane detection. That gives you an ambush box for one.

Or, using the massed earth of the dungeon as your blocker on all other, enough to create 8 divination proof manhole covers in the floor. Enough to hide in, but also enough to set up more ambush goodness.

Question regarding the effectiveness of a Paladin - are the casters evil?


Edit: Uh, consider it 20x20. My mind isn't working straight right now, but you might as well.

The Bouda Witch is by definition evil. The Wizard is true neutral. You can't and don't know about anyone else, though you could probably assume the Oracle is also evil, given that they're a necromancer. And yes, they have undead minions.


This is a toughie...

I assume that the caster party is coming in fresh and has all of their spells and has unlimited time to cast any spells they want before combat. (IE it is already stacked in their favor.) Yes?

I'm going to make a few other assumptions too...

So...

I will assume that the casters can't scry the individuals (as they should lack a connection to them) but for the sake of argument we can at least assume that they can make a "None" (even though really having none isn't allowed) check on the martial group.

This means that this starts off with will saves:

It is important to note that the casters can't use Greater Scrying as they won't have above 6th level spells and they don't have a bard. Each martial has 10,000 or so GP to spend on their items based on WBL. I, personally, never use the WBL breakdown after game begins because I find it incredibly stupid to tell a PC, "No, you can't buy that with your gold because... Reasons." But for creation I think it is fine so I'll employ it here.

Anyway so regular scrying it is then... Then lets assume that the casters will have at least a 26 in whatever their caster stat is at this level... (Since you need 3x the CL to get the bonus this means a +4 to a stat is completely possible, and assuming they started with an 18 (or a 17), then +2 for Racial trait for 20 (or 19), then +2 (at least) from the level 4 and 8 stat points that is 23 or 24 to potentially 25 if they put all 3, so assuming 24.)

So, assuming even the crappiest of Will Saves on the behalf of the Martials... Lets say that the lowest guy has a +3 (and this is low-balling) then they are getting a +13 to save vs an average (at this point) DC of (10 + SL 4 + Stat 6 + 2 specialization) 22... So the lowest, most un-boosted, martial would have a 55% chance (or better) to stop themselves from being scryed... So... That isn't a terrible threat.

The area might be able to be scryed though...

So...

First I would arm the Martials with a 12 level Ranger who has as a favored terrain: Underground (which applies to a dungeon) the Ranger should be able to camouflage himself, and have a special camo netting (since these guys hang out in dungeons all the time it seems as the dungeon is there, they probably have one laying around) which they can use survival to hide under...

Thus if they are scryed all the Casters will see is no people and an empty room. They might be paranoid and try to detect magic through the scry, but they only get a 60% chance of that working even then they'd pick up very little magic...

Thus there is really no reason for the Casters to burst into the room all guns blazing with all of their 6th level defense spells in full effect...

As the Casters begin to explore the area...

SURPRISE ROUND!

The hidden martials burst out of hiding, where they get a free round to completely wreck things...

So, we'll start with our Ranger first...

He's going to take aim at the biggest threat: The Wizard.

Assuming the ranger has a magical item that gives him haste he's going to get off around 5 attacks at the Wizard. The Wizard is going to be flat footed, but even if he's not, its likely that the first 4 attacks will hit (Regular, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, cluster... Etc...) and the Wizard is going to eat around 34d6 damage? Minimum? I'd have to fully stat it out to get all of the modifiers, but my math says a bottom score of around 100-150 damage if the Ranger is only mediocre and optimized will be a lot higher than that... Vs a class that has... At the most... Probably 72 HP at this level (6*12 assuming a) the Schrodinger's Wizard dies in the first round and never gets a spell off... So... Remove him from the equation.

The next person to act is the Paladin, the undead minions aren't an issue. The Paladin has at least a Holy Sword at this point (not an Avenger but at least a 2 hander in this case that has the Holy applied to it) and slaps the Oracle with Litany of Righteousness and then lays waste to him before his Undead can do much of anything (remember, this is the surprise round) with a two handed sword (assuming that they spring the trap when they can arrange to full attack) there is simply no realistic way the Oracle and survive this assuming between boots of haste or speed on the sword or whatever this guy is eating at least 40d6 potentially a lot more (I mean going off of just base 2 handed, and the vital strike trees, I'm not even bothering with strength and other bonuses really for this mental exercise then the holy bonus and then double the damage from the litany...) this guy is eating at minimum 150-200 damage, on a class that can't have much more than 110-120... The Oracle (and his undead) fall to the ground dead as all heck... So that is two of them out of the fight before any of them had a chance to act...

Annnnnnnnnnyway... Getting away from all of the math on this one... Since you asked how I'd build the party...

I'd build them around Alpha Strikes and around arranging them to get the drop on the casters. If they can get a surprise round off it is completely possible to kill all of the casters in the surprise round with the right combination of feats, class abilities, and such.

So yeah... Build them around front-loading big hits... Around being able to spring an ambush... Realize the limitations of the casters... Then use the things that you have to greatest effect... Remember some of those low level magic items can do a lot to turn the tide...

I mean, just to ball-park it (using a little math) look at the following non-optimized potential of the paladin I mentioned:

2 handed sword, Holy, Spell Storing (totally possible by this point) if he had a 5th level Wizard cast Shocking Grasp (or got it some other way) into his sword he could hit an evil target, using that Litany for... And remember this isn't even an optimized thing...

2d6 - Greatsword
2d6 - Holy
2d6 - Vital Strike
2d6 - Improved Vital Strike
2d6 - Greater Vital strike
5d6 - Shocking Grasp from Spell Storing
Double Damage from Litany...

That is a 30d6 hit alone... Thats not even factoring in Power Attack, Strength Bonuses, etc... That alone can kill most level 12 PC's and that isn't even on a full attack with multiple hits or a crit or anything of the sort... Most martials are capable of such bursts when supported by magical items and getting around the basic defenses of casters is something level 12 martials should have the equipment for... So...

The problem for the martials in this scenario is that they need to get the jump. If they don't, and the casters start getting a chance to rally, then the martials in this particular scenario aren't going to have much of a chance...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

6 monks, 3 unchained for flying kick face rolling and 3 zenn archers. all of them have ranks of stealth and lordy you cannot out run or fly high enough in one turn to get away.

do this as they enter.

12th level Schrodinger's Wizard
Grapple this guy

12th level Battle Cleric
arrow him to death

12th level Bouda Witch
Grapple

12th level Wildshape-focused Druid
Zenn archer

12th level Summoning-focused Sorcerer
zenn archer

12th level Oracle Necromancer
zenn archer

all of them have hellcat stealth

do hit and run tactics.


Band - That could work, but I'd err to a less, how shall I say, FOTM team. Vary it up rather than "All Monk" to make it more of a legitimate contest.


Six unchained rogues with Hide in Plain Sight, Soft Step Boots, and Scentblock.

Alternately: mix a few monks in.


Oh, easy- Have all of them specialize in dirty trick. Have all of them take dirty trick master by level 11.

Also, for giggles, have them all be eldritch guardian fighters (who each get a familiar that shares all their combat feats, thus doubling your action economy to 12 combatants). Another advantage of this is that this archetype upgrades bravery to also cover enchantments, which means that is little to no concern. I still might want them to all be half elves (who can specialize against will saves), or at least half orcs/dwarves (hardy/steel sould does not help against witch though, since I am fairly sure hexes are supernatural, and the dwarves only defend against spells)

Now, how does this work? Well, dirty trick master lets you take someone suffering from a dirty trick..and then use dirty trick to make that condition worse. One of the conditions you can impose would be nauseated- no standard actions. That means they can't remove their condition from dirty trick, and they can only cast cast quickened level 1-2 spells at best.

With 12 characters ganging up on the casters, it is not hard to at least knock a few of them out during the first round (I would aim for the wizard and sorcerer first, obviously- lowest BAB and likely dumped str, thus lowest CMD, and their spells are more immediate threats, possibly doing long term battle field control or adding a bunch of distractions with summoning)

Just gang up, take them out of action with nausated, and then move onto the next target. Wash, rinse, repeat until everyone is unable to act. Then you just keep that up while slowly killing them/tying them up.

Really, you picked this level since it was firmly past the tipping point of linear warrior/quadratic caster... but it is firmly in the sweet spot where dirty trick has finally come into full fruition. And the only reason dirty trick might be normally not that deadly is because parties are usually diverse, and as such you can't throw out a crap ton of dirty tricks at once. But this scenario perfectly played into that.

Other fun notes-
A.) This feels thematically appropriate. It is the 'eldritch guardian', no? So the idea that they are expereinced at taking down casters is cool. Also, you don't get that many high level casters together in the same small unit without a reason- maybe the guardians are protecting some mcguffin from evil casters that just wanted to steam roll in.
B.) Eldritch guardian stacks with mutagenic warrior, which gives WINGS. So that is another common martial problem taken care of- you can't escape our dirtiness.
C.) Technically, all this also stacks with Martial Master. Not a personal favorite archetype since I actually like weapon training...but hey, we have 6 fighters here. Throw in 2-3 so the party has some more versatility (such as the ability to suddenly get blind fighting in the event of darkness, or something).
D.) Throw in coordinated charge just for fun. This can work with just an eldritch guadian and familiar alone, but hey, team work feats on a specialized team. Anyway, coordinated charge gives you pseudo pounce. Easy to get next to your target with an immediate action charge when team mate charges, leaves you next to the enemy when next turn starts. Similar end result to pounce...but extra attacks.

Overall- ...this still has an element of chance, and it is rather swing-y (either you take half of them out immediately, or they bring their full caster force upon you). But you still do have a real chance with this approach, since you are going to be doing a lot of chaos in their ranks. But double the action economy while your own keeps on dwingling can be a really tough challenge to cover come.

Shadow Lodge

These fighters are NPCs? Otherwise a 12th lv PC would have 108k wbl to work with.

Sovereign Court

I don't know why everyone is making this harder than it is. What's tough about casters is if they can prepare for you in their stronghold and/or have 8th/9th level spells. Neither of those is the case here. Not even 7th level spells.

The main thing is to all get stealth out the wazoo and rings of Blinking and Improved Blind-Fight (might as well grab Moonlight Stalker while you're at it). Get dozens of smoke-sticks each and bags and bags of vicious caltrops (with pre-planned placement which you memorize and therefore never step on). Have at least 1-2 in the party be tetori monks, and one a bard (perform: dance so that he can perform silently) who specializes in the image spells. A sniping rogue or ninja might be handy too.

Then have the caster party live through a classic slasher flick. Your group Blinks everywhere while you use smoke-sticks, deeper darkness, obscuring mist, and image spells etc to separate them until the tetori monks grab them and hogtie them for their buddy to coup de' grace.

If the casters go buff crazy, back off for 12min and wait for them to run out.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Get dozens of smoke-sticks each ... and one a bard (perform: dance so that he can perform silently)

Just to note, if you use a visual performance, such as dance, it doesn't affect anyone that can't see it due to something like smoke.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Snowlilly wrote:

Six unchained rogues with Hide in Plain Sight, Soft Step Boots, and Scentblock.

Alternately: mix a few monks in.

I don't know aobut six, but you will want to have at least one Sniper Unchained Rogue with Quick Shot and Dispelling Attack. This will allow you to get a first shot sneak attack with a dispel magic rider.

Sovereign Court

ZZTRaider wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Get dozens of smoke-sticks each ... and one a bard (perform: dance so that he can perform silently)
Just to note, if you use a visual performance, such as dance, it doesn't affect anyone that can't see it due to something like smoke.

True - but it'd always work for themselves, and sporadically for their buddies. Better than not using it at all due to needing to remain in stealth.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
I don't know why everyone is making this harder than it is. What's tough about casters is if they can prepare for you in their stronghold and/or have 8th/9th level spells. Neither of those is the case here. Not even 7th level spells.

What makes you think a level 12 group of casters is ever going to turn up in person. Frankly they could just entomb the idiotic martials behind an arbitrarily large number of walls of stone and forget they exist or just send wave after wave of summoned or bound minions at them until the are done. If they do turn up in person you can bet the first several forays are fakes, illusions or what have you. There is no reason at all for a group of casters to limit themselves to the pitiful tactics possessed by people who lack access to magic.


1 cleric whose sole purpose is to heal the rest of the party after the 1-2 rounds of combat.

Party of 5 human barbarians specializing in caster related destruction. Rage powers shall include beast totem chain, superstition, witch hunter, spell sunder, come and get me, and eater of magic. High enough saves (VS SPELLS/SLA - F:+23, R:+18, W:+ 16) to handle spells and if they fail the first save they can reroll and get temp HP when they make the second. Enough HP to handle any direct damage. Spell sunder to dispell any summoned creatures / spell effects. Enough damage and pounce to 1 shot most of these lvl 12 mooks who wondered into my domain.


I have to chuckle at people suggesting stealth, grapple and ranged attacks as a strategy against a group of 6 9th level casters where multiple members are capable of casting emergency force sphere, freedom of movement, echolocation and fickle winds and where team caster, should it actually decide to turn up in person, will all be flying and invisible and with defences most likely far beyond those of the opposition.


HWalsh wrote:
SURPRISE ROUND!

Your plan fails as you only get a single action during the surprise round barring a small number of limited abilities. So your surprise round is to burst out of hiding and yell "surprise". Then the casters beat all of your initiatives and you die horribly.

This also assumes they don't do anything as basic as send a tremor sensing earth elemental to scope out the room.

It also assumes neither the wizard nor the sorcerer can cast emergency force sphere. Either could easily have defensive strategist or if the wizard is a diviner you are screwed.


andreww wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
I don't know why everyone is making this harder than it is. What's tough about casters is if they can prepare for you in their stronghold and/or have 8th/9th level spells. Neither of those is the case here. Not even 7th level spells.
What makes you think a level 12 group of casters is ever going to turn up in person.

The fact that the challenge states that they will. I mean, if we're going away from that there could be a hundred martial characters instead.


andreww wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
I don't know why everyone is making this harder than it is. What's tough about casters is if they can prepare for you in their stronghold and/or have 8th/9th level spells. Neither of those is the case here. Not even 7th level spells.
What makes you think a level 12 group of casters is ever going to turn up in person. Frankly they could just entomb the idiotic martials behind an arbitrarily large number of walls of stone and forget they exist or just send wave after wave of summoned or bound minions at them until the are done. If they do turn up in person you can bet the first several forays are fakes, illusions or what have you. There is no reason at all for a group of casters to limit themselves to the pitiful tactics possessed by people who lack access to magic.

Pitiful tactics of rogues: Knowledge Local to learn the locations of the wizards homes. Stealth/Hide in Plain Sight to sneak up on them. The ability to disable any magical traps they set.

Stabbity Stabbity Stabbity in their sleep. One at a time.

Anything is easy if you assume only one side is prepared.


andreww wrote:
I have to chuckle at people suggesting stealth, grapple and ranged attacks as a strategy against a group of 6 9th level casters where multiple members are capable of casting emergency force sphere, freedom of movement, echolocation and fickle winds and where team caster, should it actually decide to turn up in person, will all be flying and invisible and with defences most likely far beyond those of the opposition.

What opponents?

Hide in Plain Sight is an ex ability: See Invisible, Invisibility Purge, Detect Magic, etc. won't penetrate it.

The only way you auto win is if you assume the room full of martials is unaware they are being targeted. In any other case, you're going to jump into an apparently empty set of rooms.

If you reverse the assumption and allow the rogues to hunt the casters, the rogues win.

It's not a case of martials > casters. It's a case of giving one side foreknowledge while the other side is unaware.


You might want to read echolocation.


andreww wrote:
You might want to read echolocation.

I have: it gives no bonuses to beating stealth and rogues with Hide in Plain Sight don't need concealment to hide.


Blindsight automatically beats stealth as does blindsense and tremorsense. Dampen presence will help against the latter two but not the first.


Snowlilly wrote:
andreww wrote:
You might want to read echolocation.
I have: it gives no bonuses to beating stealth.

That's because it automatically beats stealth. No rolls involved.


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andreww wrote:
Blindsight automatically beats stealth as does blindsense and tremorsense. Dampen presence will help against the latter two but not the first.

You might want to quote where it says that in RAW.


andreww wrote:
I have to chuckle at people suggesting stealth, grapple and ranged attacks as a strategy against a group of 6 9th level casters where multiple members are capable of casting emergency force sphere, freedom of movement, echolocation and fickle winds and where team caster, should it actually decide to turn up in person, will all be flying and invisible and with defences most likely far beyond those of the opposition.

I was cracking up when I read this. This is so true that it is not even funny.

Honestly the martial party stands no chance. Why would the casters even enter the chamber at all. They could just keep on summoning undead, monsters, animals, familiars/animal companions, etc. Even if for some far fetched reason the casters enter. They would probably enter flying, invisible, 100,000,000 buffs on, 100,000,000 shields/defenses. At least the wizards and the druid will win the initiative. The others will probably come close behind also. Literally the battle will end in seconds. The wizard hands a out a few black tentacles/pits/wall spells/pretty much anything. The cleric puts a gazillion defenses on the casters to protect them, the witch will debuff them, The druid tears them to shreds, the sorcerer summons monsters to serve on the front line, and the oracle summons undead to guard all the casters. There is no way the martials even stand a chance.


andreww wrote:
Blindsight automatically beats stealth as does blindsense and tremorsense. Dampen presence will help against the latter two but not the first.

Where does it say this? The closest I can find is this:

"The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability."

So yeah, when the wizard is within 40ft of one of another creature they will notice the creature's existence. Which could be useful if it has some good, discerning 40ft radius area spells but otherwise shouldn't do much.


This is like that one scenario where antimagic field actually benefits the martials. Gotta work that in here somehow. I recommend having improved familiars UMD it from a scroll and fly around disabling all those invisible flying freedom of movement casters. Maybe Pseudodragons - they're good at finding invisible things without magic.


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This thread is devolving into the same old caster bs martial bs. Casters will always win if you give them no restrictions while boxing the martial into a corner with rules for the fight. People seem to think that just because a fighter can't do all these crazy things that they can't be prepared for a caster before hand. In a fair fight it comes down to one thing. Can the martial character survive the first round. If they can save vs the big nasty flesh to stone / whatever, then they have a chance to win. Both types of characters can kill the other in a single round.


The martials and the casters are in the same box. Casters have to stay within 20 feet of the room itself at all times. Same with martials. Except that the martials can tailor their builds and rearrange the room as they see fit.

Would it help/hurt if this was played out at 6th level? Or 18th?


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If I were writing this tomorrow when I could use Occult stuff without it getting deleted, things would be slightly different. We'll see how this pans out. Any die roll mentioned is actually rolled with approximated modifiers.

The party prepares by blocking off the left and right flanks with the available furniture on both sides of the doors, dousing both sides in a mixture of grain and moonshine, as well as lantern oil, to set on fire as needed. The remaining "unsafe" door is left ajar and coat the floor in front of it with a mixture of water and grain so that invisible intruders are promptly noticed. Approximately 2-3 minutes before the expected invasion, our intrepid martial party buffs up and attempts to hide - the Slayer flies into the hall, hovering near the ceiling, while the Barbarian hides inside the hallway wall. The Bloodrager holds 2 bags of flour, one under each arm, while holding onto the wall directly above the door, looking downward for footprints through the mush. The Cavalier boldly stands approximately 20' from the door with the Gunslinger and Fighter 10' in front of him and with his back to a campfire.

Superstition Spell Sunder Barbarian: Extended Burrow (Bloodrager)
Archer Fighter: Invisibility (Bloodrager)
Arcane Bloodrager (Unarmed + Reach, Spellbreaker): Spider Climb, Invisibility
Slayer: Extended Fly (Bloodrager), Invisibility (Bloodrager)
Musketmaster Gunslinger: Potion of Invisibility
Luring Cavalier: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The casters approach as a group, minus the Druid, who is tremorsensing around like a smart wildshaper. The Cavalier attempts to engage the enemy diplomatically. The enemy casters, seeing a lone Cavalier, know that he is hardly worth the effort and bother to listen (Bluff 32 vs Sense Motive high of 30 that his companions left him) followed by (Diplomacy 36 vs highest hostile DC of 33). During this time, the Slayer studies the Witch to ready for Assassinate and flies within 5', landing on the ground. The Wizard and the Sorceror are invisible. Combat opens as the Druid gets within tremorsense range of the Fighter, Gunslinger, and Barbarian from a slight side angle and the Slayer attacks the Witch for the Assassinate attempt.

Initiative rolls:
Schrodinger's Wizard (I assumed Diviner): 19
Battle Cleric: 7
Bouda Witch: 13
Wildshape-focused Druid: 21
Summoning-focused Sorcerer: 18
Oracle Necromancer: 16

Barbarian: 8
Archer Fighter: 28
Arcane Bloodrager: 19
Slayer: 15
Gunslinger: 17
Cavalier: 10

So our battle order ends up being:
Fighter
Druid
Wizard
Bloodrager
Sorceror
Gunslinger
Oracle
Slayer
Witch
Cavalier
Barbarian
Cleric

Things are not looking good initially.

Surprise Round - Slayer + Druid + Wizard only

Druid: Moves out of the ground and free action yells to his compatriots that there are invisible guys near the Cavalier.
Wizard: Greater Dispel (24), dispelling all of the buffs from the Gunslinger and Fighter. Wizard is no longer Invisible, but remains flying above his compatriots.
Slayer: Assassinate the Bouda (Fort save 17 vs DC 20) - Witch dies

Round 1:
Fighter: 5' forward, Trick Shot Sunder Many/Rapid with Adamantine arrows, targeting the Wizard's spell component pouch (36) and Handy Haversack (25, 30, 21). The 36 and 30 connect and both are destroyed.
Druid: Casts Dispel Magic at the Barbarian in the wall (16) and moves adjacent to the Fighter, Gunslinger and Cavalier. The Dispel is not able to break the Burrow spell.
Wizard: Yells for someone to give him their spare spell component pouch, moves to the ground to be near the rest of his group, and readies to take when one of them offers it.
Bloodrager: Sensing that his flour-bombing purpose is over, double-move down into the hallway, drawing his adamantine lucerne hammer while positioning himself within threatening range of as many foes as possible. He bloodrages, selecting Haste and Blur as his active effects.
Sorceror: 5' adjacent to the Wizard, draws a spell component pouch from his Handy Haversack as a move action, and hands it to the waiting Wizard as a standard. The Wizard moves initiative as his readied action goes off.
Gunslinger: Despite being within the reach of a huge earth elemental, he full attacks with Rapid/Deadly, targeting the Cleric. The Druid takes an AoO, but misses (23). The Gunslinger blasts the Cleric to pieces (Crit threat with confirmation of >30, lowest touch attack is 19 in 4 attacks, all of which connect). The Cleric eats dirt, having suffered well over 130 damage. The Gunslinger then 5' steps closer to the Druid, leaving a clear shot path for the Cavalier down the hallway.
Oracle: 5' adjacent to the Cleric to defensively cast Breath of Life (25) due to the threatening Bloodrager. While this would normally be enough, Spellbreaker + Disruptive + the bloodline arcana push it to failure, and the Oracle provokes an AoO from the Bloodrager (39), who deals a paltry 26 damage because he is not yet using Power Attack.
Slayer:Seeing a nearby Wizard and a flanking buddy in the Bloodrager, 5' into position, studies as a swift action, and goes yard with Greater TWF Keen kukris (3 critical threats, 1 confirmed, though 1 hit misses due to Displacement - other 3 miss outright), dealing 43 and 30 damage, respectively, and further reduced by Stoneskin. The Wizard is quite hurt, but still alive and kicking.
Witch:Unlike the Wizard, the Witch is dead.
Cavalier:5' out of melee from the Druid, uses Luring Challenge, and Rapid/Many/Deadly at the Oracle. (5 hits, lowest being 29). With that, the Oracle has eaten in excess of 140 damage total and dies. Luring Challenge ends as the target is dead.
Barbarian:Moves out of the wall, finds no live targets adjacent to him, moves over to the Druid, drawing his greatsword along the way, and starts to rage.
Cleric:Dead.

Round ends - This turned into a surprisingly lucky round for our melee host. 3 of the casters are down, including everyone with Breath of Life prepared.

Round 2:
Fighter: Very concerned with the continued existence of the Wizard, opens fire with Rapid/Many/Deadly (32/32/16/10, both 32s connecting and hitting despite Displacement) for an additional 42 with Clustered Shots, resulting in 32 more damage to the Wizard. The Wizard was well-invested with CON and Toughness, as well as a CON belt, however, and is still standing.
Druid: Concerned about the damage output of the ranged martials, 5' back from all nearby combatants and attempts to defensively cast Wall of Stone (23) as the Barbarian's Step Up triggers. Unfortunately, that doesn't beat the DC 27 needed for the concentration check and the spell is lost.
Bloodrager: Attempts to end the Wizard with a Power Attack and hits (35) while successfully getting past the Displacement. His adamantine weapon crushes the Wizard's skull for an additional 32 damage, putting him down for the count. Continuing to bloodrage, he then moves into the room to get near the Druid and eats an AoO (34) for his troubles. Fortunately, the Blur from his bloodline causes it to miss.
Wizard: dirt nap
Sorceror:Terrified of the current goings-on, double moves into the room to be adjacent to the Druid, hoping to teleport out soon. Still invisible.
Gunslinger: Rapid/Deadly at the Druid, as it appears to be the only live target. (3 hits, lowest of which is a 25 touch vs. the huge Druid. The critical threat does not confirm.) 28, 22, and 24 respectively, but the Druid's Stoneskin absorbs 30 of that.
Slayer: Coup de grace the Wizard, just to be sure.
Cavalier: 5' into a clear line (lol no Imp Precise!) with the Druid, then uses Luring Challenge and unleashes a Rapid/Many/Deadly. Due to poor rolls, however, none of the shots connect (high of 24).
Barbarian: Attempts to Spell Sunder the Druid repeatedly while maintaining the rage. All 3 attempts fail (high of 27).

Round ends - A solid enough performance given the advantages at the start of the round, though not as advantageous a situation as they hoped. The caster team is down to two combatants, but the martial team is completely unaware of one of them.

Round 3:
Fighter: Rapid/Many/Deadly the Druid. Unfortunately, none of the arrows manage to pierce that rocky exterior (high of 29)
Druid: Burrows out of the room. This looks unwinnable at current. The required movement provokes attacks from the Bloodrager and Barbarian, but only the Bloodrager hits (37), dealing 31 damage with his adamantine weapon.
Bloodrager: Frustratedly searches the room for other threats, maintaining his bloodrage this round.
Sorceror: Seeing his companion has fled, the Sorceror safely casts Dimension Door and gets out of dodge.
Gunslinger: n/a
Slayer: n/a
Cavalier: n/a
Barbarian: n/a

Round ends - No substantive changes.

Subsequent rounds - the Druid grabs the corpses of his companions from the hallway while burrowing and leaves, rejoining with the Sorceror. The Druid had prepared Reincarnate just in case of emergency and casts it on the Oracle, who ends up a Halfling for his troubles (71). They also kept enough diamond dust handy for the Oracle to cast Raise Dead once, bringing back the Witch.

In all likelihood, the casters go back same-day and, not falling for their nonsense a second time, slay the martials outright as they originally intended. Having then stripped the martials of their worth, they pawn the gear for enough diamond dust to Raise Dead the Cleric and Wizard.


Serisan wrote:
Wizard: Yells for someone to give him their spare spell component pouch, moves to the ground to be near the rest of his group, and readies to take when one of them offers it.

Lol no. Wizard draws one of his many spare spell component pouches from his Haversack, casts Dazing Fireball, and orders his pet Glabrezu forward.

Also, moving into melee range, in plain sight of the at least two party members who have See Invisibility active, while they stand around and listen to the Cavalier? Not happening.

Also, moving into melee range requires a DC 25 will save against Repulsion, and that's only because the Druid is being a dick and not saying "lol no" to melee against the entire party, and for some reason the Necromancer's Juju Zombies haven't been deployed up front either.


Casual Viking wrote:
Serisan wrote:
Wizard: Yells for someone to give him their spare spell component pouch, moves to the ground to be near the rest of his group, and readies to take when one of them offers it.

Lol no. Wizard draws one of his many spare spell component pouches from his Haversack, casts Dazing Fireball, and orders his pet Glabrezu forward.

Serisan wrote:
... targeting the Wizard's spell component pouch (36) and Handy Haversack (25, 30, 21). The 36 and 30 connect and both are destroyed.

Apparently they destroyed the haversack. RIP dimensional pouchbag.


Serisan wrote:

If I were writing this tomorrow when I could use Occult stuff without it getting deleted, things would be slightly different. We'll see how this pans out. Any die roll mentioned is actually rolled with approximated modifiers.

The party prepares by blocking off the left and right flanks with the available furniture on both sides of the doors, dousing both sides in a mixture of grain and moonshine, as well as lantern oil, to set on fire as needed. The remaining "unsafe" door is left ajar and coat the floor in front of it with a mixture of water and grain so that invisible intruders are promptly noticed. Approximately 2-3 minutes before the expected invasion, our intrepid martial party buffs up and attempts to hide - the Slayer flies into the hall, hovering near the ceiling, while the Barbarian hides inside the hallway wall. The Bloodrager holds 2 bags of flour, one under each arm, while holding onto the wall directly above the door, looking downward for footprints through the mush. The Cavalier boldly stands approximately 20' from the door with the Gunslinger and Fighter 10' in front of him and with his back to a campfire.

Superstition Spell Sunder Barbarian: Extended Burrow (Bloodrager)
Archer Fighter: Invisibility (Bloodrager)
Arcane Bloodrager (Unarmed + Reach, Spellbreaker): Spider Climb, Invisibility
Slayer: Extended Fly (Bloodrager), Invisibility (Bloodrager)
Musketmaster Gunslinger: Potion of Invisibility
Luring Cavalier: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The casters approach as a group, minus the Druid, who is tremorsensing around like a smart wildshaper. The Cavalier attempts to engage the enemy diplomatically. The enemy casters, seeing a lone Cavalier, know that he is hardly worth the effort and bother to listen (Bluff 32 vs Sense Motive high of 30 that his companions left him) followed by (Diplomacy 36 vs highest hostile DC of 33). During this time, the Slayer studies the Witch to ready for Assassinate and flies within 5', landing on the ground. The Wizard and the Sorceror are invisible. Combat opens...

Not bad. One of those rounds was pretty bad for the Martials. None of your martials had a way to dispel the stoneskin and only one was armed with an Adamantine weapon?

Recommendation if you ever do a re-do... Add in a Paladin to see if the Smite Evil would work (remember kids, if you are evil, and you stoneskin, the Paladin doesn't care) as Paladin + Smite Evil + Vital Strike + Litany of Righteousness = Dead evil thing usually.

Shadow Lodge

Adamantine blanch for any missile weapons.


Casual Viking wrote:
Serisan wrote:
Wizard: Yells for someone to give him their spare spell component pouch, moves to the ground to be near the rest of his group, and readies to take when one of them offers it.

Lol no. Wizard draws one of his many spare spell component pouches from his Haversack, casts Dazing Fireball, and orders his pet Glabrezu forward.

Also, moving into melee range, in plain sight of the at least two party members who have See Invisibility active, while they stand around and listen to the Cavalier? Not happening.

Also, moving into melee range requires a DC 25 will save against Repulsion, and that's only because the Druid is being a dick and not saying "lol no" to melee against the entire party, and for some reason the Necromancer's Juju Zombies haven't been deployed up front either.

Because we already established a few things:

1. There is no realistic way the casters can scry the party. You can't "scry" without having some kind of connection to the party. If you even try it, and have the flimsiest of excuses, then the person you are scrying gets to make a save against the spell with a +10 bonus to resist it.

2. The haversack already got wasted in the opening round so the Wizard cannot get a spare pouch.

3. They have no way to know the PCs have see invisibility active unless they stop, cast detect magic, then want to identify it. Thus they have no way to know.

4. DC 25 will save is easy enough to make at these levels depending on the class and has no effect on the initial ranged barrage.

5. The Zombies never had a chance to be spawned. The casters didn't know that they were there. Unless your casters run around with a bunch of undead for no reason.


Hey, at least the Wizard didn't have some sort of Contingent Dimension Door or Contingent False Life, Greater or have Shout or Dominate Person prepared.


HWalsh wrote:


Because we already established a few things:

1. There is no realistic way the casters can scry the party. You can't "scry" without having some kind of connection to the party. If you even try it, and have the flimsiest of excuses, then the person you are scrying gets to make a save against the spell with a +10 bonus to resist it.

2. The haversack already got wasted in the opening round so the Wizard cannot get a spare pouch.

3. They have no way to know the PCs have see invisibility active unless they stop, cast detect magic, then want to identify it. Thus they have no way to know.

4. DC 25 will save is easy enough to make at these levels depending on the class and has no effect on the initial ranged barrage.

5. The Zombies never had a chance to be spawned. The casters didn't know that they were there. Unless your casters run around with a bunch of undead for no reason.

1. There's always Clairvoyance and intel from the Earth Gliders.

2. My bad on the Haversack. Then again, you assuming that the wizard hasn't already cast "archery? lol no" before entering.

3. What? I'm saying the casters have see invisibility up. Invisibly approaching them while they listen to the Cavalier is not going to happen.

4. DC 25 will save that's neither enchantment nor mind affecting is going to be a problem for most.

5. A dedicated Necromancer IS running around with a bunch of undead. It's what he does.


We can back-and-forth this all day, but my main two points are:
1. The casters know they're raiding a dungeon, and that it's probably heavily guarded. They come in buffed, with allies and summons and creatures granted as class features.

2. Invisibility won't do much for the martials.

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