Grrr... Grumble... Unprepared... One-Trick...


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Sometimes I get more than just a bit irritated with all the players that absolutely refuse to contribute if it isn't their specialty.

It's immune to sneak attack, so I just hide...

I didn't have any room for the feats, so I don't have a ranged weapon...

I got a boon for an Ifrit, so I only take fire spells...

mutters under breath for a few more minutes

Those daggers can still do some damage or maybe you could at least aid someone else.

With your 26 str, you could probably carry a few javelins or at least a free sling. I agree it won't be huge damage, but better than 'I ready my sword for an attack in case something happens to come within range' (for the entire fight). Heck pick up a rock and throw it. If you really are stuck on your 'melee' concept, maybe - just maybe, you should buy a few potions of fly so you can get to melee range. At 7th level, I think you can afford it.

Yes your Ifrit has a theme and doesn't want any ice spells, I get it. How about a haste or communal pro evil?

Sczarni 5/5 * Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman

It happens more often then it probably should that people get tunnel vision when it comes to a character concept.
Just politely mention that they might want to pick up those items that will help round out their weak points and move on.

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

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Or suggest for a mere 2PP they could get a great bow (Darkwood composite longbow w/ up to +3 STR)

It comes down to taking the teachable moment.

More an once has my rogue (now 18th) fought things he couldn't sneak attack. Never stopped him from attacking, though the abyssal swarms he flung tougher him that perhaps others should use the swarmbane clasp he bought.

Grand Lodge 5/5

For newer players I suggest talking to them politely. It is better to always do something in combat than nothing, even something as small as an Aid Another can be useful. For more experienced players I suggest taking a look at this guide.

I generally have found that one-trick ponies often happen more by player and region, so it may be a culture thing that you can help change. Some players like one-trick ponies, in which case working with them to increase the amount they can use the trick may help, suggesting potions of fly for the melee build, elemental rods for the Ifrit, etc. If it's a regional thing that will take more of a culture change, but in my experience if the more experienced players get more diversified or increase their utility others will follow suit.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ElterAgo wrote:

Sometimes I get more than just a bit irritated with all the players that absolutely refuse to contribute if it isn't their specialty.

It's immune to sneak attack, so I just hide...

I sort of get this one. If I'm playing the rogue, it's not worth it for me to stay in melee if sneak attack doesn't work. They should still fall back and fight at range, but I wouldn't expect the rogue to stay in melee.

ElterAgo wrote:
I didn't have any room for the feats, so I don't have a ranged weapon...

Yup. Instead of having even just a 5% chance to hit using a ranged weapon because I have penalties for cover or firing into melee, I'll self-impose a 0% of contributing. Never made sense to me either.

ElterAgo wrote:
I got a boon for an Ifrit, so I only take fire spells...

I have a sorcerer with the draconic (red) bloodline, so it makes sense that his blast spells all deal fire damage. At low levels it might mean fire resistance/immunity is a big deal, but at that level there are other ways to contribute. But by level 5, a lesser metamagic elemental rod should be affordable.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Newbs I understand this from. It's a learning lesson. Experienced players should know better. UMD + Wands is a solution I frequently recommend.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Note that at some level, ranged attacks without feats are going to be quite unimpressive. While you could contribute for 1d4+4 per round, it may be a better tactical decision to ready that melee attack to scare off monsters that might want to close with your wizard in melee. You don't see anything happening - the point is that something doesn't happen.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

I enter melee vs things immune to sneak attack. I'm a fan of my planar elven curveblade and I still have dex to damage, improved critical, and spring attack :)


trollbill wrote:
Newbs I understand this from. It's a learning lesson. Experienced players should know better. UMD + Wands is a solution I frequently recommend.

The monofocus is something Pathfinder's addressed in their newer classes--but it was a much heavier issue in Core. The fighter was the most egregious example, with no outside abilities and only 2 skill pts per level, and worse, was further encouraged by the mechanics to specialize.

Not all new classes possess a greater flexibility, but it seems many do.

It helps address the tunnel vision, though it doesn't solve it.

4/5 5/55/5 * RPG Superstar 2015 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

There's also always the option to aid another

3/5

One of my worst PFS experiences happened because of this at PaizoCon last year. Playing at random table and the last encounter was a "Honor" fight. Scenario gave numerous instructions that non-lethal damage only can be used in fight. Lethal damage was a big no-no. Guy in party states that his character is built around his animal companion (which had no way to deal non-lethal) and didn't care about instructions and was going to use companion to attack.

Entire table told him not to do this as it could damage our ability to successfully complete the mission. He didn't care and did it anyway (the guy actually had his dad sitting with him at the table-who didn't say anything either. Guy was not a kid and definitely old enough to know how to work better with others. Situation got ugly...I was livid and got a little animated. Fortunately, though the scenario said to punish us for this lethal damage, the GM used his discretion and ignored it.

Scarab Sages 4/5

EDIT: Wow. Several posts snuck in while I was typing that. It was a response to Lau.

Or buy a Potion of Fly or at least a reach weapon and a Potion of Enlarge Person. When you're running a melee character, you need some way to be able to reach an enemy. Readying to attack a flying Alchemist/Wizard/whatever that's dropping bombs/spells on the group if they happen to fly into range isn't going to help, because they'll never fly into range. Counting on your party's Wizard/Sorcerer/whatever to either be able to outblast the enemy or be able to give you the ability to fly isn't practical in PFS, because you might not have that kind of caster.

I have some characters that don't bother with much of a ranged attack, but I make sure they have some way to take the fight to the enemy if they can.

Now, in game, I'm not going to chastise a player for not being prepared. I have and will hand off my potion of fly to the party Barbarian if they don't have one of their own, because they'll likely do more damage than my Investigator or Oracle. Or as happened recently, my Investigator used Monstrous Physique for himself to get a fly speed and gave his potion to the party Ninja. That was at level 9 in a 7-11 scenario. In another 7-11 (tier 7-8) two players with 8th level characters said they had never encountered a flying enemy before. Hopefully they understand now why it's important to be prepared.

Much like Trollbill, if it's someone who is new or new to higher level play, it's easier to understand. If it's someone who's been playing a while, it's a little more frustrating. The 8th level never encountered flying enemies players really surprised me, I'll admit.

Sovereign Court 1/5

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I had a one-trick pony for a little while with a guy that focused on Dirty Tricks. All it took was a few encounters where Dirty tricks did nothing or the enemy's CMD was WAY too high that I realized I needed a backup plan.

Bought a Wand of Grease and a Wand of Gallant Inspiration.

Wand of grease was great for causing large creatures with low reflex saves to slip and fall. And the wand of gallant inspiration caused many attacks that would have otherwise failed to get through. Now, it did require me to ready action to use the wand with a "Call for help" as the trigger. But when it worked, it did just the trick. And all the while I'd be using Bardic Performance to buff the party.

You definitely want to encourage backup plans! A real adventurer should be prepared for multiple different situations.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Our group is infamous for having masterwork slings that can double as evening wear.

3/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Our group is infamous for having masterwork slings that can double as evening wear.

Makes them easy to smuggle into places :)

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5 *

À Wand of gallant inspiration doesn't work as you need at least a standard action to activate a wand.

Quote:

Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast has a longer casting time than 1 action, however, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

Back to topic : all my characters try to be cooperative in a way even when the situation is not one he handle well.

Having potion of fly for a martial character is a must have as well as some sort of ranged weapon.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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Bruno, a handsome and beautiful Tetori, have two tricks.

1) Bruno grapple.

2) Bruno grapple HARDER.

2/5

When playing with new players i simply ask us all to do a quick intro. In this i get an idea what to expect and i declare what i took them to mean. If they say they are a blaster sorc ill ask if they have fireball or someother evocation, and 90% of the time theyll correct me with exactly what they have. At the end of intros ill run off a quick checkpist of things weve missed and make sure we got them covered. It honestly doeant take that long all in all 5 minutes while the gm sets up.

If they are missing something like a pot of fly and cant afford one ill offer one for the adventure and if they use it they buy one on their chronicle that they receive and i get my restock.

This way no one is surprised when things pop up and we know ahead of time what we may get stumped by.

2/5

I should clarify "new players" are people i havent gamed with before/often enough.

5/5 *****

Florent Fournol wrote:
À Wand of gallant inspiration doesn't work as you need at least a standard action to activate a wand.

Which is why I assume he said he readied to use it on request. I am not certain that actually works from a timing perspective but he wasn't trying to use it as an immediate.

As far as my characters go I tend to play full casters but have been experimenting with 2/3rd ones. That innately brings lots of options and I have a habit of buying a handy haversack and filling it with all manner of scrolls, potions and mundane gear. Having just bought Alchemy Manual even more stuff has been added.

I tend to make sure they have ways to contribute both in and out of combat. I try to bring a range of Knowledge skills, even if it is just a rank in a handful, and tend to max diplomacy where possible. Clever Wordplay and Student of Philosophy are marvellous for this on Int casters.

Even my core Wizard and Druid have max diplomacy ranks, despite negative charisma mods. I might not be likely to make the scenario DC but I can at least aid. Also, I am terrible at keeping quiet so I want to have some numbers to back up my talkativeness.

The Exchange 5/5

G-Zeus wrote:

When playing with new players i simply ask us all to do a quick intro. In this i get an idea what to expect and i declare what i took them to mean. If they say they are a blaster sorc ill ask if they have fireball or someother evocation, and 90% of the time theyll correct me with exactly what they have. At the end of intros ill run off a quick checkpist of things weve missed and make sure we got them covered. It honestly doeant take that long all in all 5 minutes while the gm sets up.

If they are missing something like a pot of fly and cant afford one ill offer one for the adventure and if they use it they buy one on their chronicle that they receive and i get my restock.

This way no one is surprised when things pop up and we know ahead of time what we may get stumped by.

bolding mine.

Is the "checklist of things" a formal list? something you can share with us?

5/5 *****

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G-Zeus wrote:
When playing with new players i simply ask us all to do a quick intro. In this i get an idea what to expect and i declare what i took them to mean. If they say they are a blaster sorc ill ask if they have fireball or someother evocation, and 90% of the time theyll correct me with exactly what they have. At the end of intros ill run off a quick checkpist of things weve missed and make sure we got them covered. It honestly doeant take that long all in all 5 minutes while the gm sets up.

I played Mummy's Mask 1 yesterday with a group of experienced players and still went through a checklist:

1. Do you have a way to attack at range
2. How are you going to heal yourself if damaged
3. What do you do if a swarm turns up
4. How about if we encounter a shadow
5. We are in a city which was nearly wrecked by plague, who bought an anti plague
6. How are you going to see in the dark

Its a useful list even for experienced people.

The Exchange 5/5

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andreww wrote:
G-Zeus wrote:
When playing with new players i simply ask us all to do a quick intro. In this i get an idea what to expect and i declare what i took them to mean. If they say they are a blaster sorc ill ask if they have fireball or someother evocation, and 90% of the time theyll correct me with exactly what they have. At the end of intros ill run off a quick checkpist of things weve missed and make sure we got them covered. It honestly doeant take that long all in all 5 minutes while the gm sets up.

I played Mummy's Mask 1 yesterday with a group of experienced players and still went through a checklist:

1. Do you have a way to attack at range
2. How are you going to heal yourself if damaged
3. What do you do if a swarm turns up
4. How about if we encounter a shadow
5. We are in a city which was nearly wrecked by plague, who bought an anti plague
6. How are you going to see in the dark

Its a useful list even for experienced people.

I have posted the following list before, but I always find it awesome, and presented in a very novel way. You're #6 is not on that list, but perhaps I should add it...

I had a judge for a game I was going to play send out the following in an email... and I found it very "Awesome!", so I thought I'd share it with my friends here (and the rest of you too!).

(in the email sent to all the players before the game):
I will remind you to be prepared for the basics.

Disease
Poisons
Ability damage (potentially drain)
Swarms
Invisible opponents
Incorporeal opponents
Extremes in temperature
Being grappled
Religious extremists who do not like you
Travel in an area where Pathfinders are not legal

Then AFTER you leave the venture captains office...

Yeah... made me laugh!

Silver Crusade 5/5

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"One-Trick ponies" also apply to those persons who only consider "combat" as the answer to all situations. Sure you can slice and dice with the best of them. Shot holes into solid stone, and sling AOE damage in all four energy types...

But can you dance?

Can you hide/sneak?

Can you ask (nicely!) where they locals keep their dead?

Can you calm a small child?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

Ferious Thune wrote:

EDIT: Wow. Several posts snuck in while I was typing that. It was a response to Lau.

Or buy a Potion of Fly or at least a reach weapon and a Potion of Enlarge Person. When you're running a melee character, you need some way to be able to reach an enemy. Readying to attack a flying Alchemist/Wizard/whatever that's dropping bombs/spells on the group if they happen to fly into range isn't going to help, because they'll never fly into range. Counting on your party's Wizard/Sorcerer/whatever to either be able to outblast the enemy or be able to give you the ability to fly isn't practical in PFS, because you might not have that kind of caster.

I have some characters that don't bother with much of a ranged attack, but I make sure they have some way to take the fight to the enemy if they can.

Now, in game, I'm not going to chastise a player for not being prepared. I have and will hand off my potion of fly to the party Barbarian if they don't have one of their own, because they'll likely do more damage than my Investigator or Oracle. Or as happened recently, my Investigator used Monstrous Physique for himself to get a fly speed and gave his potion to the party Ninja. That was at level 9 in a 7-11 scenario. In another 7-11 (tier 7-8) two players with 8th level characters said they had never encountered a flying enemy before. Hopefully they understand now why it's important to be prepared.

Much like Trollbill, if it's someone who is new or new to higher level play, it's easier to understand. If it's someone who's been playing a while, it's a little more frustrating. The 8th level never encountered flying enemies players really surprised me, I'll admit.

Oh, I totally agree with you on the need to be prepared. I was just making a point that sometimes inactivity is not the result of bad planning.

And I've found that for my wizard, casting Fly on the ground-bound pregen can be just as powerful a buff as Haste.

I've been playing alongside pregens a lot lately, and they have odd weaknesses, like Amiri not having any way to cut herself out of a monster's belly when swallowed whole. Buy the barbarian a dagger :)

Silver Crusade 4/5

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Reposting my general character creation advice, which applies here.

When I make a new PC, I try to answer 4 questions (used to be 3, but I ended up with a couple of boring PCs, so added a 4th):

1. What's this character's specialty in combat? As long as the PC can do something that helps the party succeed in a fight, this can be anything, not just dealing damage, but make sure you're actually good at whatever this is. You don't have to be uber-optimized, but make sure you can contribute.

2. What does this character do in combat when they're specialty isn't an option? This is things like having a ranged weapon even though your character is a melee beast, or an enchantment based character having something they can do when facing mindless foes. Also, everyone should try to get some splash weapons for use against swarms, though that might have to wait until after your first adventure to be able to afford it.

3. What does this character do outside of combat? This isn't just for personality, this is also making sure you have something useful to contribute between fights. Sometimes, it's diplomacy or other face skills, even if it's just enough of a bonus to be the "aid another" guy behind the main face. Sometimes, it's knowledges, sense motive, or whatever other skills could come in handy between fights.

4. What personality traits will you be able to actively portray at the table? The above 3 questions are designed to make a playable PC by giving them something useful to do in most situations. This question was added afterwards to make a fun character. I had a couple of PCs that were mechanically interesting, but didn't have a personality. Or they had a detailed back story, but that didn't really give me something to role play at the table. This is about giving your PC personality, whether it's a distinctive voice, an obsession that you can play up (sounds like alcohol could be your urban druid's passion), or whatever other quirk makes the PC fun to play.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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But on the topic of one trick ponies, I have a related story.

I used to play D&D and AD&D back when they were two separate games, along with some other RPGs. Like many people back then, I stopped playing RPGs when my gaming group went our separate ways after high school graduation. When I decided to return to the hobby 20 years later, my first thought was to check out the latest version of D&D, which was 4th edition at the time. Soon after that, I was recruited to a Pathfinder game, and ended up sticking with that, so here I am.

But my first table top RPG session in over 20 years was a D&D organized play session in 4e at a public store. We had a group of 7 or 8 players with one DM, with two of us being returning old time players who hadn't played in forever, and the others being experienced 4e players. Even though it was a low level adventure, we ended up facing some flying monsters (bats or something in a cave, IIRC), and we discovered that half the group were melee guys with no ranged weapons, even those who were already level 2 or 3. The funny part is that the two of us who hadn't played in years were both looking at the rest of the group like "How can you make a PC with no ranged weapon?"

I still remember my first edition AD&D wizard throwing daggers at things at low level, because I didn't have anything else I could do with my limited spells per day.

Scarab Sages 3/5

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Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno, a handsome and beautiful Tetori, have two tricks.

1) Bruno grapple.

2) Bruno grapple HARDER.

Rok becomes dire ape and grapples those who hurt Roks friends into submission. Rok met a teleport as a move action supernatural ability demon, then a Protean, and then a ghost... It was a very bad day for Rok. Rok is finding an ape size club to shillelaghize.

Shadow Lodge

I'll be the first to admit that my Swashbuckler is a bit of a one trick pony.

Up until recently, he only had a single weapon, a +1 Answering Aldori Dueling Sword, however he nearly broke it in a module, and had to use a Masterwork Longsword for nearly an entire level - after-which he purchased an Adamantine Aldori Dueling Sword and he now carries two weapons.

He does not carry a ranged weapon, can you believe that in his entire career, he has yet to actually need one. He's level 8. Now, don't get me wrong, he'd be pretty decent with a bow, despite not having any feats for it, after all he has 22 dexterity and full BAB, so he would have at least a +14 to hit with a non-masterwork bow, however with his pitiful 13 strength, a +1 strength longbow would only do 1d8+1 - if the creature has DR, that's likely nothing.

Now, my Swashbuclker is in fact carrying two Scrolls of Fly, though he lacks the ability to activate them.

But Flying creatures aren't the only issue my Swashbuckler would run into. He has no way of dealing with Swarms (no alchemist's fires). He has no way of dealing with extreme weather (his only clothing is a Noble's Outfit, which he did not start with for free but purchased, there's no record of what his starting clothing is at this point).

However, my Swashbuckler can do a few things you wouldn't expect him to do. He can disarm (non-magical) traps, including locating them with a +11 perception modifier (disable device is +20, tools included). He can detect magic thanks to his Discerning Wayfinder, and is trained in Spellcraft (+9, with an additional +2 once per day). He also has decent social skills (+8 Bluff/Diplomacy, +14 Intimidate).

Is he prepared for every situation? Not by a long shot. However I like to think that he is prepared for the encounters he has faced in the past, and will continue to learn from new experiences to be better prepared in the future, after all he has 12 Intelligence and 10 Wisdom, it's hard to learn from things that haven't happened to him.

Scarab Sages 4/5

Pregens are their own challenge in a group. I played yesterday with a level 7 Seelah who was essentially taken out of a difficult fight by a pit trap. She didn't even fall into the pit. It was just blocking the entrance, and she had no chance of jumping it. So instead she lowered a rope to the guy who did fall in the pit. That's not the player's fault, though, as there's nothing he could have done to correct that.

As the Cleric (though a melee focused one), I probably should have handed Seelah my potion of fly in that situation, instead of using it myself, as I had ranged options to help her. Really, it was poor planning on my part that was the problem. I'd prepped Tongues instead of Air Walk, because we were expecting a lot of social encounters in a country where the majority of the party, including the party face, didn't speak the language. We were also underground.

I wish that the Sorcerer had Fly (or even Spider Climb), but he didn't. He had Monkey Fish, which versatile as it is, is a personal spell.

I do have a bit of a one-trick issue on my Magus right now. I'm working to correct it. She's a trip build Kapenia Dancer with the Wand Wielder Arcana. I can trip just about anything CR appropriate using either a Blade Lash or True Strike wand, but the diminished spell casting is hurting more than I thought it would. I played her up as a 3 into a 6-7 tier, which ended up not being the best idea. Getting Spell Recall at 4th helped. I'm one scenario from 5th level now, and I should have some more versatility then between getting two feats, the increased Arcane Pool bonus, and additional spells. I should also be able to afford an Agile weapon in a couple of scenarios, and that will help a lot.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

G-Zeus wrote:
If they are missing something like a pot of fly and cant afford one ill offer one for the adventure and if they use it they buy one on their chronicle that they receive and i get my restock.

What do you mean you get your restock? They can't buy you an item to keep after the scenario.

4/5

"Auntie" Baltwin wrote:

"One-Trick ponies" also apply to those persons who only consider "combat" as the answer to all situations. Sure you can slice and dice with the best of them. Shot holes into solid stone, and sling AOE damage in all four energy types...

But can you dance?

Can you hide/sneak?

Can you ask (nicely!) where they locals keep their dead?

Can you calm a small child?

From outside of PFS, I can tell you that the Hell's Rebels AP very firmly pushes players towards knowing how to handle themselves in multiple of those questions. It's one of the things I really respect about that AP.

A couple other considerations:

  • Can you handle yourself at a fancy dinner?
  • Can you calm a horse?
  • Have you prepared for the mundane travel details of desert exploration?

These are all very reasonable things that PFS scenarios have asked players to do, even higher level players that would normally try to teleport past certain obstacles.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Sammy T wrote:
G-Zeus wrote:
If they are missing something like a pot of fly and cant afford one ill offer one for the adventure and if they use it they buy one on their chronicle that they receive and i get my restock.
What do you mean you get your restock? They can't buy you an item to keep after the scenario.

I am interested in this as well. Not to get anyone in trouble per say, just informative. There are many ways I've seen GMs allow things like this. One not-uncommon occurrence is that one player gives an expendable to another character to hold. At the end of the scenario, the player gives "it" back, except in some cases the "it" being given back is not the one originally given. Essentially, it is one player buying something for another play, but since it is to replace a borrowed item, like for like, most GMs I have encountered allow it. Might not be technically legal, but it happens.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Sammy T wrote:
G-Zeus wrote:
If they are missing something like a pot of fly and cant afford one ill offer one for the adventure and if they use it they buy one on their chronicle that they receive and i get my restock.
What do you mean you get your restock? They can't buy you an item to keep after the scenario.
I am interested in this as well. Not to get anyone in trouble per say, just informative. There are many ways I've seen GMs allow things like this. One not-uncommon occurrence is that one player gives an expendable to another character to hold. At the end of the scenario, the player gives "it" back, except in some cases the "it" being given back is not the one originally given. Essentially, it is one player buying something for another play, but since it is to replace a borrowed item, like for like, most GMs I have encountered allow it. Might not be technically legal, but it happens.

I'd probably allow it, too. I agree that it's probably not technically legal, but as long as the guy who expended the item pays for it and no longer has it after it's expended, it seems fair.

In fact, now that I think about it, this might be worth asking campaign management to write into the Guild Guide as an exception to the "no buying stuff for other players" rule. It might encourage more experienced players to stock up on things they don't actually need, to loan out to people who don't know better. Right now, you have to be generous with your money if you do that, because you won't get the items back if they're used. But if you know you'll get it back after "loaning" it to someone, then it doesn't require as much self sacrifice, which might help encourage such teamwork.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 *

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Fromper wrote:
3. What does this character do outside of combat?

What I've noticed is that I have gained a bias towards playing PCs with classes that grant more skill points per level as I've gotten more experience with PFS.

My first PFS PC was a dwarf monk with a 9 Int and 5 Cha. If it doesn't involve cracking heads, he isn't too useful.

Where I tend to dip fighter levels I tend to go towards Lore Warden as an archetype. The only exception is the PC that dipped 1 level into an Eldritch Guardian fighter to get a familiar. But in his case all the rest of his levels are inquisitor which is a 6+Int class.

There are plenty of martial PCs that get at least 4+Int skill points, barbarian, bloodrager, brawler, cavalier, ranger, slayer, swashbuckler, etc.

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Fromper wrote:

Reposting my general character creation advice, which applies here.

When I make a new PC, I try to answer 4 questions (used to be 3, but I ended up with a couple of boring PCs, so added a 4th):

1. What's this character's specialty in combat? As long as the PC can do something that helps the party succeed in a fight, this can be anything, not just dealing damage, but make sure you're actually good at whatever this is. You don't have to be uber-optimized, but make sure you can contribute.

2. What does this character do in combat when they're specialty isn't an option? This is things like having a ranged weapon even though your character is a melee beast, or an enchantment based character having something they can do when facing mindless foes. Also, everyone should try to get some splash weapons for use against swarms, though that might have to wait until after your first adventure to be able to afford it.

3. What does this character do outside of combat? This isn't just for personality, this is also making sure you have something useful to contribute between fights. Sometimes, it's diplomacy or other face skills, even if it's just enough of a bonus to be the "aid another" guy behind the main face. Sometimes, it's knowledges, sense motive, or whatever other skills could come in handy between fights.

4. What personality traits will you be able to actively portray at the table? The above 3 questions are designed to make a playable PC by giving them something useful to do in most situations. This question was added afterwards to make a fun character. I had a couple of PCs that were mechanically interesting, but didn't have a personality. Or they had a detailed back story, but that didn't really give me something to role play at the table. This is about giving your PC personality, whether it's a distinctive voice, an obsession that you can play up (sounds like alcohol could be your...

This is a better-written, more formalized version of what I do. It works pretty well!

Silver Crusade 4/5

Michael Hallet wrote:
Fromper wrote:
3. What does this character do outside of combat?

What I've noticed is that I have gained a bias towards playing PCs with classes that grant more skill points per level as I've gotten more experience with PFS.

My first PFS PC was a dwarf monk with a 9 Int and 5 Cha. If it doesn't involve cracking heads, he isn't too useful.

Where I tend to dip fighter levels I tend to go towards Lore Warden as an archetype. The only exception is the PC that dipped 1 level into an Eldritch Guardian fighter to get a familiar. But in his case all the rest of his levels are inquisitor which is a 6+Int class.

There are plenty of martial PCs that get at least 4+Int skill points, barbarian, bloodrager, brawler, cavalier, ranger, slayer, swashbuckler, etc.

Even with only 2 skill ranks per level, you can still find something fun/useful to do outside combat if you pick a skill or two to specialize in.

I have two fighters with charisma below 7 (dwarf and tiefling). The tiefling is an intimidation specialist, and has profession: chef (which he's really not good at), so he can growl at NPCs and always has his obsession to talk about to make him interesting (see point 4 in my post above).

The dwarf is a merchant in The Exchange, so his profession: merchant skill can be used in place of a social skill once in a while. He's not great at talking, but he's actually pretty good at Sense Motive, so he still helps in social situations.

1/5

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ugh I hate writing long posts

Right around level 4, but especially from levels 6 to 8, the game begins to get harder with significant difficulty spikes rather than the previous gradual numbers progression.

Keep in mind, a player could play something along the lines of a dozen tables of PFS or more before really hitting the first abnormally large spike in encounter/scenario difficulty.

Players who are used to rolling over encounters purely based on the merit of the numbers on their character sheet for six to twelve weeks (assuming weekly or even twice-a-week play sessions) suddenly realize they need to account for all kinds of difficulties and tactical nuances that they have not yet seen or had previously been able to brute-force their way past at low levels with six-person tables (in no particular order):

- climbing/swimming
- breathing underwater
- diffcult terrain
- encounters that cannot be solved through combat or virtually require non-lethal damage
- significant skill DC spikes for social skills our out-of-combat skills
- concealment
- swarms
- darkness
- invisibility
- ability score drain
- negative levels
- blindness/deafness
- enemies with concealment/miss percentages
- flying creatures
- grappling
- resisting the urge to strangle Drumble Drong or Drandle Drung or whatever his name is
- Enemies with all kinds of DR - Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, Good, Cold Iron, Fire, Silver, Untyped, etc.
- learning to resist damage types: fire, acid, electricity, etc.
- creature subtypes that are immune to precision damage/crits/flanking
- Venture Captains who hate pathfinders and send you on crap missions (looking at you Sheila Heidmarch)
- creatures with MUCH higher CMB/CMD scores
- incorporeals
- confusion/domination spells
- environmental conditions
- NPCs who hate pathfinders
- The Elven Entanglement

As a note, there is a great thread somewhere here in the PFS forums that sorta breaks all this down by rough character level, but I am lazy so go find it yourself

Players usually get metaphorically kicked in the teeth for the first time around levels 4 to 8 by any number of the points above and sometimes do not handle it well emotionally.

A lot of players will 'check out' of an encounter that they have no ability (whether perceived or actual) to deal with. That being said, if they come back with all the tools they needed to handle it a second time when encountered later on, they most definitely learned a lesson and will not be caught unprepared again. The question is, did you as a fellow player or GM help to teach them at all, especially in a way that does not come off as being a completely annoying toolbox?

As a GM or more experienced player, you are in a great position to help new players learn, not just how to play the game mechanically but also how to be a more well-rounded player in general.

something something implied social contract of organized play or whatever I am done typing

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

There's probably a few options, but this thread is the one that comes to mind with a list of which challenges you should be prepared to solve at which levels.

Sovereign Court 1/5

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Florent Fournol wrote:

À Wand of gallant inspiration doesn't work as you need at least a standard action to activate a wand.

*Citation*

andreww wrote:
Florent Fournol wrote:
À Wand of gallant inspiration doesn't work as you need at least a standard action to activate a wand.
Which is why I assume he said he readied to use it on request. I am not certain that actually works from a timing perspective but he wasn't trying to use it as an immediate.

Yeah, I asked this a looooonnnngggg time ago ^.^

Remaining on topic: I'm going to jump on the "Aid Another" bandwagon with a fun story!

We were all faced with a nasty construct that none of us were able to handle individually. Fortunately for us, this battle occurred immediately after we climbed a 50 (or something) foot rope to get to where we were. So, we lured the construct over toward the hole we climbed up out of while huddling in total defense and fixing our initiatives to make sure the guy with the highest CMD went last.

When the construct got next to us, we surrounded it, then declared "aid another" to the martial guy to assist in a Bull Rush combat maneuver. With all of our assistance, we got high enough on the check to move the construct the spaces we needed to knock it down the hole, ending the combat.

Never underestimate aid another. It's just as good as succeeding the attack on your own.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/55/55/5

You called. What do you want?

3/5

Fromper wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:
Sammy T wrote:
G-Zeus wrote:
If they are missing something like a pot of fly and cant afford one ill offer one for the adventure and if they use it they buy one on their chronicle that they receive and i get my restock.
What do you mean you get your restock? They can't buy you an item to keep after the scenario.
I am interested in this as well. Not to get anyone in trouble per say, just informative. There are many ways I've seen GMs allow things like this. One not-uncommon occurrence is that one player gives an expendable to another character to hold. At the end of the scenario, the player gives "it" back, except in some cases the "it" being given back is not the one originally given. Essentially, it is one player buying something for another play, but since it is to replace a borrowed item, like for like, most GMs I have encountered allow it. Might not be technically legal, but it happens.

I'd probably allow it, too. I agree that it's probably not technically legal, but as long as the guy who expended the item pays for it and no longer has it after it's expended, it seems fair.

In fact, now that I think about it, this might be worth asking campaign management to write into the Guild Guide as an exception to the "no buying stuff for other players" rule. It might encourage more experienced players to stock up on things they don't actually need, to loan out to people who don't know better. Right now, you have to be generous with your money if you do that, because you won't get the items back if they're used. But if you know you'll get it back after "loaning" it to someone, then it doesn't require as much self sacrifice, which might help encourage such teamwork.

+1 Joe is a Cleric of Desna and carries a lot of condition removal, and for the nominal PP or gold cost, that is just part of being a team player: The bruiser bought an adamantite weapon, the arcane caster packs several utility scrolls, the alchemist hands out cheap tonics. Everyone does their part.

But now that Joe is packing 1000 gold of diamond dust and a spare 5000 gold diamond, it would be nice to be able to be reimbursed for their use. Although some GMs allow the replace what you used method, it is quite clearly against the rules.

Scarab Sages 4/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Fromper wrote:
Michael Hallet wrote:
Fromper wrote:
3. What does this character do outside of combat?

What I've noticed is that I have gained a bias towards playing PCs with classes that grant more skill points per level as I've gotten more experience with PFS.

My first PFS PC was a dwarf monk with a 9 Int and 5 Cha. If it doesn't involve cracking heads, he isn't too useful.

Where I tend to dip fighter levels I tend to go towards Lore Warden as an archetype. The only exception is the PC that dipped 1 level into an Eldritch Guardian fighter to get a familiar. But in his case all the rest of his levels are inquisitor which is a 6+Int class.

There are plenty of martial PCs that get at least 4+Int skill points, barbarian, bloodrager, brawler, cavalier, ranger, slayer, swashbuckler, etc.

Even with only 2 skill ranks per level, you can still find something fun/useful to do outside combat if you pick a skill or two to specialize in.

I have two fighters with charisma below 7 (dwarf and tiefling). The tiefling is an intimidation specialist, and has profession: chef (which he's really not good at), so he can growl at NPCs and always has his obsession to talk about to make him interesting (see point 4 in my post above).

The dwarf is a merchant in The Exchange, so his profession: merchant skill can be used in place of a social skill once in a while. He's not great at talking, but he's actually pretty good at Sense Motive, so he still helps in social situations.

A couple of other "tricks" for skill points:

- Humans, or Half-Orcs with the Skilled racial trait get +1 skill point per level.
- Your favored class bonus
- Consider having a 12 INT instead of a 12 CHR or WIS. That's one more skill point every level to spend as you please.
- Some of the Faction Cards offer skill utility options. Sovereign Court can let you use Diplomacy for Knowledge in certain situations. Grand Lodge can give bonuses to physical skills to allies.
- Elixirs are Fun. For one hour and 250gp you can have a +10 to Swim, Acrobatics, Stealth, or Perception. Similarly, a potion of Spider Climb is 30 minutes of climb speed for 300gp.

My CORE human fighter gets 5 points per level. (12 INT, Human, Favored class). Combine that with a Trait that adds a non-Fighter skill to my class list (in my case, Knowledge Arcana - but just as easily something else), and I've got a great repertoire of out-of-combat skills.

For a lot of builds, Players tend to take their primary attack mode to 150%. While Awesome, all those build resources put into "overkill" could have been put into secondary abilities that increase the chances of success in odd situations, or non-combat encounters.

I have noticed many season 7 scenarios are expecting all PCs to participate in skill challenges (with diverse skill options). This is a shift from just needing one PC to make a Diplomacy, Knowledge, or Disable Device check to get past a non-combat encounter. So it is beneficial for your PC to now have a few good skill options.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

Dylos wrote:


Is he prepared for every situation? Not by a long shot. However I like to think that he is prepared for the encounters he has faced in the past, and will continue to learn from new experiences to be better prepared in the future, after all he has 12 Intelligence and 10 Wisdom, it's hard to learn from things that haven't happened to him.

I dislike the "only prepared for things he has faced" argument.

1) the character literally spent years being trained as a pathfinder
2) the character spends LOTS of time hanging out with adventurers. Surely they spend much of that time swapping war stories and advice. Your life may depend on it after all

4/5

grandpoobah wrote:
I have noticed many season 7 scenarios are expecting all PCs to participate in skill challenges (with diverse skill options). This is a shift from just needing one PC to make a Diplomacy, Knowledge, or Disable Device check to get past a non-combat encounter. So it is beneficial for your PC to now have a few good skill options.

Which is exactly why I love my investigator (psychic detective) so much in Season 7. :)

I have been locally joking that Season 7 is "Year of the Skill Checks." Although, honestly, I love the change so that scenarios are much more balanced now. :)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Eh, at least Bronze House got pretty ridiculous at parts. Speaking as both a gm and a player.

Scarab Sages

Muser wrote:
Eh, at least Bronze House got pretty ridiculous at parts. Speaking as both a gm and a player.

Don't get me started on Bronze House. That was a horribly designed scenario.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

huh, talk about snap judgments.

Shadow Lodge

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Paul Jackson wrote:

I dislike the "only prepared for things he has faced" argument.

1) the character literally spent years being trained as a pathfinder
2) the character spends LOTS of time hanging out with adventurers. Surely they spend much of that time swapping war stories and advice. Your life may depend on it after all

Charismatic Swashbucklers of noble descent with average wisdom and only slightly above average intelligence do not often listen to good advice.

Silver Crusade Venture-Agent, Florida–Altamonte Springs

I have a guy in the runelords game I'm running. He's a 2 weapon fighter (focusing on longsword) with a 15 str and 15 dex. He has weapon focus longsword, so instead of fighting with a longsword and a shortsword giving him a +2/+1 to hit he's using two longswords so he has a +0/+0 to hit, oh and he doesn't have a ranged weapons because it's not a longsword...

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