Shaman FCB vs. Spell Known FAQ


Rules Questions

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Arcane Enlightenment could have been deliberately constructed the way it was to prevent cross-class spell dipping. Whether that was the intent or not simply isn't known; we can go around and around with eloquent arguments (or the more-common-alternatives) that guess the intent, but when you can't say for certain, strict RAW tends to get a heavy hand because it's the only default consensus there is.

That the Shaman FCB is intended to allow the casting of the spells acquired is beyond any reasonable doubt, which makes strict RAW unnecessary because consensus can be reached without it.

These are two different situations, and acting like they aren't just makes trying to hash-out a reasonable consensus about how the game is supposed to run more difficult.


James Risner wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
Since when shamans have spells known?

Everyone with spells have spells known. So /boggle. I've no idea what you mean?

Quote:
Table: Shaman Daily Spells Known

Shamans and any other prepared caster don't have known spells nor a dedicated table to it, they only have spell slots per day.

Moreover the Shaman being a Divine Prepared caster doesn't even have a spellbook of sorts, he can just prepare any spell from his class list.


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The community has a largely agreed upon definition of what the term RAW means. And that definition is the legalistic view, because that's all that matters in a logical discussion of opinions. Because arguments based on your opinion are just your opinion. But arguments based on a legalistic reading of the rules have the validity of logic behind them, without being clouded by your own expectations and feelings.

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed a few posts/responses to them. Don't use "retard" as a pejorative here. Also, let's dial back the snark a bit please.


I find the "You can interpret the rules a million different way, there is no way to reach one interpretation." argument to be complete nonsense. Most of the rules in the game have only one interpretation. There is no multiple interpretations of how much BAB a 10th level Fighter or has, or how many Skill Points a 12 INT Bard gets at each level, or what a 6th level Paladin's base saves are. I would in fact argue that the overwhelming majority of the rules as written have only one valid interpretation. The issue is that the Shaman FCB at the moment RAW runs up against the Spells Known FAQ. This unlike the Fighter's BAB, the Bards skills per level, and the Paladin's base saves is something that is not well defined and should be.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the internet!

This errata really should be clarified further.

New Spells Known: If I gain the ability to add a spell that is not on my spell list to my list of spells known, without adding it to my spell list, can I cast it?
No. Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class. For example, sorcerers add their bloodline spells to their sorcerer spell list and oracles add their mystery spells to their oracle spell list. The spell slots of a class can only be used to cast spells that appear on the spell list of that class.

As far as the last sentence of the answer, my best assumption is that since the ruling says "unless they are added by a class feature of the same class", to me the implication is that they were targeting non-class feature methods of adding spells (how this all works I don't know), perhaps traits and such. Favored Class Bonuses, while racial, are tied to the specific classes so to me qualify for adding the spells as ones you can cast. But if someone can grab this one trait that lets them use this one feat that lets them get this one spell, it doesn't mean that spell is tied to the spellcasting ability they have. Just getting it doesn't mean you can actually cast it, unless you got Haste specifically through a class feature that allows it. Class features are tied to your class spellcasting. Non-class features, such as certain traits or other spell-expansion abilities, give you the spell if you already have the means of casting it, but are useless if the spell origins and your spellcasting abilities don't sync up.

My secondary opinion was that the bold phrasing was also to prevent someone from doing a Schrödinger's spell list: if someone has the potential of adding spells via class abilities, there is no benefit until the spell is actually chosen. If you grabbed a cleric spell for a shaman, that shaman has zero ability to use spell-trigger or completion items, feats, or take archetypes/prestige classes involving that spell until they've selected it for the day. After that point, it is on the spell list of the character's active spell list, not the class, to prevent things like maybe a wand of an arcane version of a divine spell or other potential abuses. Since it never exists until chosen, technically you can't get early entry into whatever or cross into other things that wasn't RAI.

So to summarize: the shaman can cast the FCB or Arcane Enlightenment spells each day they have added it to their active list of spells, since such instances are through legitimate class abilities and have been accounted for, but non-class spell expansions cannot legitimately add spells of a different class. Any way of adding spells that is not incorporated to a class ability is disallowed. For what my opinion's worth.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Anzyr wrote:

I find the ... argument to be complete nonsense.

The issue is that the Shaman FCB at the moment RAW runs up against the Spells Known FAQ.

Fair enough, my statement has a bit of exaggeration to it. I'll retreat a little, and say a larger number of the times when the phrase RAW is used in a debate on this thread is to reject another person's interpretation of the rules. Not all of those times are for things like what is the BAB of a 12th level Fighter. Many of them are things like this or the courageous weapon property pre-FAQ.

This particular issue, for example, is a case where you could say RAW it doesn't do anything and I'd say RAW it adds it to spells known in agreement with the FAQ because it is a Shaman class feature. The key different in the interpretations of RAW is I consider it a class feature and you (and others maybe) do not.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Cussune wrote:
Any way of adding spells that is not incorporated to a class ability is disallowed. For what my opinion's worth.

The FAQ was to cover two issues:

Eldritch Heritage for Arcane for spells not on your list.
Cracked Orange Ioun Stones for spells not on your list.


James Risner wrote:
Cussune wrote:
Any way of adding spells that is not incorporated to a class ability is disallowed. For what my opinion's worth.

The FAQ was to cover two issues:

Eldritch Heritage for Arcane for spells not on your list.
Cracked Orange Ioun Stones for spells not on your list.

That was the intent but it had wider implications as was pointed out at the time. I recall Mark Seifter asking people to compile a list of what other things were hit by it but nothing seemed to happen with that. It impacts the Shaman FCB as well as the Wayang Oracle FCB amongst various other effects.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

andreww wrote:
Mark Seifter asking people to compile a list of what other things were hit by it but nothing seemed to happen with that. It impacts the Shaman FCB as well as the Wayang Oracle FCB amongst various other effects.

I remember that also. Maybe we should compile a list. I won't have much time this week past today (GenCon) but next week I'll start a new thread and you and I and others can compile a list of all things that could be interpreted to have impact on this. I'm thinking more "all things" not "classes of things". So all FCB that add spells that might be impacted by the FAQ each listed separately.


Did I miss the thread on the discussion about the Known Spells FAQ? I have questions and I want to make sure they weren't already answered.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lune, not a lot of discussion really. Mostly just to drive home the point that if an ability says it adds a spell to your spell list and that spell isn't already on your spell list, then it doesn't add to your spell list unless it describes how to handle the spell (what level) etc.


Alright, well I really only have one question then:
Does any of this affect a 4th level Crossblooded Sorcerer using a Page of Spell Knowledge for a 2nd level spell that he has slots for but no spells known (other than from the page, that is)?


Lune wrote:

Alright, well I really only have one question then:

Does any of this affect a 4th level Crossblooded Sorcerer using a Page of Spell Knowledge for a 2nd level spell that he has slots for but no spells known (other than from the page, that is)?

So long as the page is for a spell the sorcerer has on their spell list...no.


James Risner wrote:
if an ability says it adds a spell to your spell list and that spell isn't already on your spell list, then it doesn't add to your spell list

What a delightful paradox...


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This seems pedantic to me.


Ravingdork wrote:
This seems pedantic to me.

It's really really not. There's lot of abilities that don't function, and while I would hope this was designed to do something at the moment it does nothing. If it's truly that pedantic then surely it can be resolved quickly with a "Yes, the spells are added to the Shaman Spell List."


I take it that this hasn't been resolved yet? If so, I apologize for the shameless raise.

Maybe a question that would be easier to answer, would be, what happens to an Unlettered Arcanist that takes the human FCB?

Arcanist Human FCB wrote:
Add one spell from the arcanist spell list to the arcanist’s spellbook. The spell must be at least 1 spell level below the highest level the arcanist can cast.
Unlettered Arcanist wrote:
Anything that would allow an unlettered arcanist to add spells to her spellbook allows her to add spells to her familiar instead.

Would the Arcanist then be able to prepare and effectively be able to cast the [arcanist, not witch] spells added to their familiar?


Pounce wrote:

I take it that this hasn't been resolved yet? If so, I apologize for the shameless raise.

Maybe a question that would be easier to answer, would be, what happens to an Unlettered Arcanist that takes the human FCB?

Arcanist Human FCB wrote:
Add one spell from the arcanist spell list to the arcanist’s spellbook. The spell must be at least 1 spell level below the highest level the arcanist can cast.
Unlettered Arcanist wrote:
Anything that would allow an unlettered arcanist to add spells to her spellbook allows her to add spells to her familiar instead.
Would the Arcanist then be able to prepare and effectively be able to cast the [arcanist, not witch] spells added to their familiar?

That probably deserves its own thread. RAW you would indeed add an arcanist, not witch, spell to your familiar. I'm pretty sure RAI would be that you add a witch spell though.


I'm going to go with the others who have said that, as prepared casters, Shamans don't have a list of "spells known," and that this is a poorly worded ability. It says spells known, but since that's a non sequitur, it pretty obviously means spell list.


Yeah, sure, FAQ it I guess, though I don't see any good reason why it isn't a class ability/related effect,
being located in same/different spot doesn't mean much, plenty of rules are spread out,
and FCB are mechanics that are granted from taking levels in a class... period.
(if you argue that it is a racial ability, then channel is an alignment ability and not a cleric class ability)
It has been mentioned that the cases with Class Skills show that the FAQ applies beyond the narrow scope of the "Class Abilities" sub-section of each class write-up, i.e. that it is abilities/mechanics derived from the Class in broad terms.

Honestly though, I think there's a hell of alot issues that need a FAQ much more badly than this one.

The Arcanist issue mentioned above, for one.

In fact, the Shaman itself has a number of other issues which actually are wholly unclear (unlike this which is RAI clear),
that weren't addressed by the Errata and/or were instigated by the Errata itself.
I won't re-hash all of those, since they were posted in the relevant threads, but suffice it say
that alot of them revolve around Unsworn Shaman Archetype and related mechanics/Feats that intersect with that.
(although not exclusively)


Quandary wrote:

Yeah, sure, FAQ it I guess, though I don't see any good reason why it isn't a class ability/related effect,

being located in same/different spot doesn't mean much, plenty of rules are spread out,
and FCB are mechanics that are granted from taking levels in a class... period.
(if you argue that it is a racial ability, then channel is an alignment ability and not a cleric class ability)
It has been mentioned that the cases with Class Skills show that the FAQ applies beyond the narrow scope of the "Class Abilities" sub-section of each class write-up, i.e. that it is abilities/mechanics derived from the Class in broad terms.

Honestly though, I think there's a hell of alot issues that need a FAQ much more badly than this one.

The Arcanist issue mentioned above, for one.

In fact, the Shaman itself has a number of other issues which actually are wholly unclear (unlike this which is RAI clear),
that weren't addressed by the Errata and/or were instigated by the Errata itself.
I won't re-hash all of those, since they were posted in the relevant threads, but suffice it say
that alot of them revolve around Unsworn Shaman Archetype and related mechanics/Feats that intersect with that.
(although not exclusively)

Ya, I'm trying to keep the question focused on just one issue in the hopes it has a better chance of being addressed. I had hoped the Errata would help, but alas.

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