Blindness with blindsight not a handicap because blindsight is better than normal sight.Except when it doesn't? can not detect many incorporeal creatures (scent share that weakness), can't read non-relief writtings, Immunity to sight based stuff include the beneficial ones (like bardic performance), limited range, etc...
Now, if the adventure handicap regular sight a lot, that is another story.
Blindsight completely negates all forms of concealment (magical and non-magical). You can see around corners and low walls. You can see invisible creatures. You can see through any kind of darkness, even magical darkness. Magical effects like blur and displacement have no effect. Visual illusions are useless against you. How can anyone believe this isn't better than normal sight?
Can't see incorporeal creatures? So what? You have immunity to many other circumstantial hazards, such as gaze attacks and explosive runes.
Can't see color? Can't read in a fantasy world that assumes most commoners are illiterate? Who cares? You have super powers.
There's some circumstantial downsides, but blindsight+blindess is still an upgrade over normal sight. Giving a blind character blindsight is like giving a double amputee the ability to fly like Superman. You completely undermine the dramatic impact of the impairment. It's nothing short of a cop out.
??? try reading the description, maybe?
For a suggestion outside of the genre, I'd take a look at the Miraluka from the Star Wars rpg. They don't see, but they sense life energy... I wonder if that would make them blind to the undead...
So the Miraluka can't see Obie Wan like Luke can?
RAI, a silence spell or a stink bomb will provide cover from blindsight.
That's assuming it uses smell and sound. I saw a movie about the Blind Swordsman(subtitled of course) and he walked slowly with his sword cane, but he could find his foes by their heartbeats. He also could find the bars and eateries by smell.
In essence, unless the character has a seeing eye animal companion, all terrain is difficult.
??? try reading the description, maybe?Blindness with blindsight not a handicap because blindsight is better than normal sight.Except when it doesn't? can not detect many incorporeal creatures (scent share that weakness), can't read non-relief writtings, Immunity to sight based stuff include the beneficial ones (like bardic performance), limited range, etc...
Now, if the adventure handicap regular sight a lot, that is another story.
Blindsight completely negates all forms of concealment (magical and non-magical). You can see around corners and low walls. You can see invisible creatures. You can see through any kind of darkness, even magical darkness. Magical effects like blur and displacement have no effect. Visual illusions are useless against you. How can anyone believe this isn't better than normal sight?
Can't see incorporeal creatures? So what? You have immunity to many other circumstantial hazards, such as gaze attacks and explosive runes.
Can't see color? Can't read in a fantasy world that assumes most commoners are illiterate? Who cares? You have super powers.
There's some circumstantial downsides, but blindsight+blindess is still an upgrade over normal sight. Giving a blind character blindsight is like giving a double amputee the ability to fly like Superman. You completely undermine the dramatic impact of the impairment. It's nothing short of a cop out.
I beg your pardon? We're talking about blindsight, correct? You know, the ability that says "This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature" and relies on senses that don't require line of effect?
So the Miraluka can't see Obie Wan like Luke can?
RAI, a silence spell or a stink bomb will provide cover from blindsight.
That's assuming it uses smell and sound. I saw a movie about the Blind Swordsman(subtitled of course) and he walked slowly with his sword cane, but he could find his foes by their heartbeats. He also could find the bars and eateries by smell.
In essence, unless the character has a seeing eye animal companion, all terrain is difficult.
Unless he has Blind-Fight, which should be an automatic bonus feat. Otherwise, it'll just be a feat tax.
Lifesense is pretty much what people are talking about here.
??? try reading the description, maybe?I beg your pardon? We're talking about blindsight, correct? You know, the ability that says "This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature" and relies on senses that don't require line of effect?
From the Paizo PRD.
Blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
Said something?
Ah, I see. Though, I read it from the glossary that defines the ability. Also doesn't make much sense that you need line of effect when echolocation, smell, and hearing work around corners. But I digress.
My point still stands. Despite some circumstantial drawbacks, blindsight is superior to normal sight. Blindsight makes blindness no longer an impairment, which defeats the cool factor of playing an awesome blind guy. Such a character is cool because they're powerful despite having the impairment. As opposed to a blind character with a special power that makes the impairment irrelevant.
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Someone need to ask for clarification on that one in the rule forum.
I don't really see the point of going on the rules forum for clarification.
Ex: You make a perception check to notice the guy sneaking up behind you, essentially using your other senses besides sight to notice the person. Same with the guy hiding in the shadows, or the guy in the tree, or anywhere in which someone has concealment.The guy with blindsight who always relies on these senses picks up on the person all the time. Technically, the only way to hide from someone with blindsight is to either: A.) Be outside the range of their blindsight, or B:) Have total cover From them. And when I say total cover I mean more along the line of; there is absolutely no way in heck that you would be able to see them. If there is a hole large enough for a sighted person to be able to reasonably see through at a distance, the guy with blindsight can see through it too.
Partial cover means that they can still be seen; you've gotta look at it in a 3 dimensional way.
I'm not counting incorporeal creatures in this.
Ah, I see. Though, I read it from the glossary that defines the ability. Also doesn't make much sense that you need line of effect when echolocation, smell, and hearing work around corners. But I digress.
Echolocation doesn't really work around the corners (it has a specific weakness regarding angles), and like hearing, "Zone of Silence" is your worst nightmare.
To follow up on Archmic's good comment, remember that Stealth requires concealment or cover to work. You have to start and end your movement having concealment or cover. Since blindsight negates all forms of concealment and that you automatically detect anyone having less than total cover without the need of a Perception check, Stealth is almost impossible against a blindsighted character. Suddenly, the blind guy is the best party member to put on watch!
fun fact, humans have slight echolocation(that can be trained to be better), that you probably didn't realize you had. In fact we have one of the best sound detection systems in the animal kingdom being able to discern the direction of a sound with in 5 degrees
Ah, I see. Though, I read it from the glossary that defines the ability. Also doesn't make much sense that you need line of effect when echolocation, smell, and hearing work around corners. But I digress.Echolocation doesn't really work around the corners (it has a specific weakness regarding angles), and like hearing, "Zone of Silence" is your worst nightmare.
Gars:
You're nit picking. The feat and any rules on it do not say that a zone of silence counters blindsight (echolocation), or that a particularly strong smell (scent), or that there are a lot of people in the area the person is waking through (tremor sense), or that a strong enough breeze would (vibrations through the air) keep it from working either.It's an Extraordinary ability. It's beyond total comprehension. It works because it does. Why does a vacuum work? Because there is nothing. Nothing at ALL for the blind person to be able to use to sense something. So I guess technically, if you want to create an area that has no sound, a ludicrisly powerful smell, durring an earthquake, with a tornado ripping through then blindsense wouldn't work because you would over power every option that the person who uses it has.
Cyrad:
The line of effect makes perfect sense. There has to be a moment when you can draw a straight line from one point to the other, starting from a corner of a 5X5 foot box that you can touch the same corner on the person you're dealing with. Note that other people don't count as cover, while dead bodies can... kind of creepy actually. Technically, unless someone is trying to hide behind a tree a person is going to notice them. You may not be able to see them all the time but you will know they're there; eventually the guy trying to hidey is going to pop his head out to check on your position or make a noise and that's when you get your perception check. The person with blindsight simply "sees" the person and can warn the party about it without making a perception check.
All of Blindsight's weakness' are listed in the description. Which are technically very few compared to it's benefits. The absolute biggest drawback is range. Not being able to see something past a certain point sucks for planing ahead. The only times a person with blindsight would make a perception check is to notice a sound or smell that's origin is outside it's blindsight range.
So the Miraluka can't see Obie Wan like Luke can?
RAI, a silence spell or a stink bomb will provide cover from blindsight.
That's assuming it uses smell and sound. I saw a movie about the Blind Swordsman(subtitled of course) and he walked slowly with his sword cane, but he could find his foes by their heartbeats. He also could find the bars and eateries by smell.
In essence, unless the character has a seeing eye animal companion, all terrain is difficult.
Unless he has Blind-Fight, which should be an automatic bonus feat. Otherwise, it'll just be a feat tax.
Lifesense is pretty much what people are talking about here.
Actually, the Miraluka can see. While they are born without eyes they are extremely force sensitive and since the force is everywhere; to include the vacuum of space; they see just fine. The force gives them all the information they need.
Archmic, I agree that the line of sight makes sense mechanically.
Human echolocation sounds more like blindsense. I've seen documentaries about it before. It allows you to sense the location of people and objects, give an impression of their dimensions, etc. However, they can still trip over terrain if they hustle and their senses aren't accurate enough to pinpoint an opponent actively dodging them or see when someone points a bow at them.
So to interfere with blindsight you would need
1-both sound and smell blocking, such as a solid wall or a prismatic sphere. Maybe a spell tailored to that such as odious clamor.
2-If it's a magical power, such as some monsters have, then only things specifically listed as blocking it will block it. Anti magic field might not effect it but a dead magic zone would. Thus only oracles (magical mutants, if you allow them) and monsters will have this.
3-If someone is otherwise blind and learned to depend on smell and sound to the point of simulating blindsight only sound and smell blocking will effect it. Even a dead magic zone will not effect it.
4-If someone is hiding behind something, the being with blindsight will be aware of them, but cannot target them with anything but an area effect. A self centered burst will be stopped by whatever they are hiding behind.
Archmic, I agree that the line of sight makes sense mechanically.
Human echolocation sounds more like blindsense. I've seen documentaries about it before. It allows you to sense the location of people and objects, give an impression of their dimensions, etc. However, they can still trip over terrain if they hustle and their senses aren't accurate enough to pinpoint an opponent actively dodging them or see when someone points a bow at them.
I agree with you on the most part but as I said to Gars in the same post; blindsight is an extraordinary ability and is slightly beyond full comprehension or understanding. They can see everything that anyone else can see; save for the few things it says that they can't see in the abilities description.
Here's the ability Blindsense from the Advanced Race Guide: Using nonvisual senses such as acute smell or hearing, members of this race notice things they cannot see. Members of this race usually do not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within 30 feet, provided they have line of effect to that creature. A creature that members of this race cannot see still has total concealment against individuals with blindsense, and members of this race still have the normal miss chance when attacking creatures that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of members of this race. Members of this race are still denied their Dexterity bonus to AC against attacks from creatures they cannot see. That's probably the most descriptive version of blindsense you can find. Blindsight is on a completely different level from blindsense and due to it's power it's not even listed as a viable option for a race in the book.I agree that Blindsense can be confounded using certain methods, but Blindsight is on a completely different level.
So to interfere with blindsight you would need
1-both sound and smell blocking, such as a solid wall or a prismatic sphere. Maybe a spell tailored to that such as odious clamor.
2-If it's a magical power, such as some monsters have, then only things specifically listed as blocking it will block it. Anti magic field might not effect it but a dead magic zone would. Thus only oracles (magical mutants, if you allow them) and monsters will have this.
3-If someone is otherwise blind and learned to depend on smell and sound to the point of simulating blindsight only sound and smell blocking will effect it. Even a dead magic zone will not effect it.
4-If someone is hiding behind something, the being with blindsight will be aware of them, but cannot target them with anything but an area effect. A self centered burst will be stopped by whatever they are hiding behind.
1- a solid wall I agree with, the prismatic sphere; which can be walked through; wouldn't. It's swirling colors which someone with blindsight couldn't even see to begin with or register that it existed. Force wall would stop it though.
2-I agree with this.3-If you wanted to specify that it depended solely on sound and smell then yes, but there are other things that it can use. Echolocation specifically works on certain frequencies and technically you would have to make a noise either loud enough or in the same range as the the sound being used for the echolocation to disrupt it.
4-In principle yes. The same restrictions as a sighted spellcaster apply in this case. A ranged touch attack can't be attempted if your line of effect is disrupted. Such as a large tree or someone laying prone behind a low wall.
Ah, I see. Though, I read it from the glossary that defines the ability. Also doesn't make much sense that you need line of effect when echolocation, smell, and hearing work around corners. But I digress.Echolocation doesn't really work around the corners (it has a specific weakness regarding angles), and like hearing, "Zone of Silence" is your worst nightmare.Gars:
You're nit picking. The feat and any rules on it do not say that a zone of silence counters blindsight (echolocation), or that a particularly strong smell (scent), or that there are a lot of people in the area the person is waking through (tremor sense), or that a strong enough breeze would (vibrations through the air) keep it from working either.
It's an Extraordinary ability. It's beyond total comprehension. It works because it does. Why does a vacuum work? Because there is nothing. Nothing at ALL for the blind person to be able to use to sense something. So I guess technically, if you want to create an area that has no sound, a ludicrisly powerful smell, durring an earthquake, with a tornado ripping through then blindsense wouldn't work because you would over power every option that the person who uses it has.
Since you are asking, Blindsense and Blindsight are too "generic", the word saving ended up making things more complicated.
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I wonder if this concept fits a class better than it does a race. Working towards eventually removing all deficits or most of them. The class would have to be pretty sound to make a low level character viable though because with an initial constant penalty like blindness a character could end up getting over powered by the other adventurers very quickly or even be over powered by less powerful enemies.
If you want to go the class route, a Oracle of Battle with the Blind Clouded Vision curse approximates the concept you are describing. I have a "blind swordsman" PFS character that uses this plus a couple of levels of fighter.
So to interfere with blindsight you would need
1-both sound and smell blocking, such as a solid wall or a prismatic sphere. Maybe a spell tailored to that such as odious clamor.
2-If it's a magical power, such as some monsters have, then only things specifically listed as blocking it will block it. Anti magic field might not effect it but a dead magic zone would. Thus only oracles (magical mutants, if you allow them) and monsters will have this.
3-If someone is otherwise blind and learned to depend on smell and sound to the point of simulating blindsight only sound and smell blocking will effect it. Even a dead magic zone will not effect it.
4-If someone is hiding behind something, the being with blindsight will be aware of them, but cannot target them with anything but an area effect. A self centered burst will be stopped by whatever they are hiding behind.
1- a solid wall I agree with, the prismatic sphere; which can be walked through; wouldn't. It's swirling colors which someone with blindsight couldn't even see to begin with or register that it existed. Force wall would stop it though.
2-I agree with this.
3-If you wanted to specify that it depended solely on sound and smell then yes, but there are other things that it can use. Echolocation specifically works on certain frequencies and technically you would have to make a noise either loud enough or in the same range as the the sound being used for the echolocation to disrupt it.
4-In principle yes. The same restrictions as a sighted spellcaster apply in this case. A ranged touch attack can't be attempted if your line of effect is disrupted. Such as a large tree or someone laying prone behind a low wall.
I meant that if a character was not on the list of people allowed to walk through the sphere, they could not detect anything inside. One layer is abjuration, another is poison gas, and maybe one of them is sonic damage. Does blind sight outrank a 9th level spell? That's a GM call.
If someone was born with useless vestigial eyeballs or they were damaged and never healed, their learned blindsight(if the GM allows that) at a high level would not be echolocation. If they have a bat animal companion/familiar then they do have access to echolocation.
Have I covered all the bases yet?
In my original question I wasn't descriptive of the fluff because I had the idea of the Miraluka from Star Wars as what I was ultimately looking for. I used the example of a blind swordsman because I figured it related to pathfinder better. In the end I executed my post inefficiently. The Miraluka see through the force and since in Star Wars everything is connected to the force, even lifeless objects, to the Miraluka I assume they would see the universe in a way that is like a sense aura spell that is effected by everything. I also did specifically post that I would limit some overpowering aspects of being blind. Although I don't think I would do more than this I posted that I would make a home rule that this race specifically, and not any other race, is still effected by spells because the spells would effect the other senses that the race relies on. The idea is that the character would still be effected by charm spells, fascination, illusions that create false images, and such. The intent is not to give 360 degree vision to the race, and honestly I don't think that blind sense or blind sight give that because they both specifically state that line of effect is important. In regards to real life echolocation there is a guy who is completely blind and can ride a bike, and identify objects without touching them using echolocation so I do think that its viable to give echolocation to a humanoid race. Sorry I didn't respond sooner I spent the last 4 days camping with the family.