Why do Martials need better things?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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bookrat wrote:
Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.

Because then you run into the "damaging an object rules" which say that, regardless of hardness, if the weapon you are using is unsuited to dealing damage to a particular object then it potentially does nothing. In much the same way as you cannot dungeon tunnel with adamantine arrows you don't get to do so using your bare fists.

Its a part of the whole "martials must be chained to a low powered version of reality" schtick.


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andreww wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.

Because then you run into the "damaging an object rules" which say that, regardless of hardness, if the weapon you are using is unsuited to dealing damage to a particular object then it potentially does nothing. In much the same way as you cannot dungeon tunnel with adamantine arrows you don't get to do so using your bare fists.

Its a part of the whole "martials must be chained to a low powered version of reality" schtick.

There is no rules conflict here.

Fighters are suited to punch chunks out of walls with their fists. It's way less powerful than stopping time or teleporting.

Wizards, not having been trained in fighting like Fighters have, would not be able to accomplish this, unless they were of an archetype that made them more suited.

So by RAW, it is allowed.

I mean, Fighters can jump almost from orbit and survive, punching a rock from a wall is nothing. Assuming they can do enough damage to overcome the hardness, I see no reason to disallow it.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

How much of the disparity is also a function of environment/rules used?

In the game I run I use a custom world a friend created that was meant to be a "broken" world. It has, as examples, no halflings, no cats, and the dimensional bonds are weird, allowing for demons and devils that turn to crystal in sunlight to appear from portals in specific places. As a result, spells that summon extradimensional creatures don't work in this game, and teleportation/teleportation effects become... risky (i.e. a villain that teleported away from the heroes was pretty much written off as committing suicide; that is how large the potential failure for long-distance teleportation we are talking about dealing with). Summoners are a banned class in this world.

In hindsight, we looked back and realized that you drop the power of a mid-/high-level spellcaster CONSIDERABLY once you remove the extradimensionals (which basically means "no summoning most things that can cast a spell") and most teleportation beyond 20 feet or so (which would be the practical limit to how much risk you want to run with teleporting in an environment where there's any chance you could kill yourself).

We are also going to the Wound Levels system from Pathfinder Unchained. That spellcaster suddenly becomes a LOT more squishy once they lose a caster level for dropping to 75% health (which there is a 50/50 shot off for every full spellcaster). As an aside, it does make combat a heckuvalot more explosive, because it encourages a "Smoke If Ya Got 'Em" mentality; next round, you may not be able to cast the Fireball spell if you take another hit.

Finally, I started another thread in the advice section about removing prepared spellcasters from the game totally (it's my thing; I love the mechanic, but the fluff of the idea of a high-level wizard forgetting how to cast a spell they cast five minutes ago annoys me too much). The observation that occurred from that is that you reduce a spread of around six tiers to only four, one tier of which (the highest) would only have two classes - Sorcerer and Oracle. Your disparity drops considerably more in that scenario as well.

I guess my point here is, unless you're playing PFS, you're playing a make-up game where you get to create the rules. I think the rules can be manipulated to achieve whatever effect is desired.

If you're PFS though... ;)


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bookrat wrote:

So one of my earlier questions never got answered with this challenge:

Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.

And his BAB is high enough to not have to worry about the penalties. Up thread, someone said he'd have around a -14 to hit the kobold throwing a rock. With a +20 BAB, that's still a +6 to hit an AC of 15. So that's a 60% chance to hit.

I think it's more of a question of if he can do it fast enough.


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bookrat wrote:

So one of my earlier questions never got answered with this challenge:

Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.

Can he deal lethal damage with his hands by taking -4 to hit? If so it should be possible if the GM allows fists as a suitable weapon to damage walls. Else... I think walls are immune to non-lethal damage.


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Just a Guess wrote:
bookrat wrote:

So one of my earlier questions never got answered with this challenge:

Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.

Can he deal lethal damage with his hands by taking -4 to hit? If so it should be possible if the GM allows fists as a suitable weapon to damage walls. Else... I think walls are immune to non-lethal damage.

Good point.

My naked fighter had Improved Unarmed (so he could Deflect/Snatch arrows)-I would allow him to punch walls.

Alternatively, I don't see why you can't use an arrow/bolt to pry something out. If we assume a magically crafted/carved/smooth wall, I would still allow the fighter to punch chunks out because... Badass.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Just a Guess wrote:
bookrat wrote:

So one of my earlier questions never got answered with this challenge:

Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.

Can he deal lethal damage with his hands by taking -4 to hit? If so it should be possible if the GM allows fists as a suitable weapon to damage walls. Else... I think walls are immune to non-lethal damage.

the wall will tucker out eventually.

Dark Archive

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Just a Guess wrote:
Seranov wrote:


They'd never build a legitimate initiator-knock-off type thing for Fighters, because they hilariously overvalue being able to do things an unlimited number of times a day.

There is almost zero chance that they'd go anywhere near those kinds of class features, without making the classes that have them even worse in return.

The main point is that they never build something like that for the fighter but for spellcasters it is totally ok. Or are level 0 spells not unlimited?

Why can casters have everything unlimited that fighters get (attacks, maneuvers, movement, etc.) and unlimited cantrips/orizons in addition to that while martials are not allowed additional unlimited stuff special for them?
Literary everything the martials can do all day long are things the casters can do, too. Some, like many 6th level casters nearly as good as the martials.

Don't look at me. I'm not in charge of what Paizo does. If I had it my way, Path of War/Ultimate Psionics/Spheres of Power would replace 100% of Paizo's classes. Everybody would have fun and effective class features, with minimal stupid full spellcaster shenanigans, and nobody would be hilariously inept outside of their single only-sometimes-useful niche.


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alexd1976 wrote:
andreww wrote:
bookrat wrote:
Why can't the fighter just punch the stone until a large enough chunk falls out where he can throw it at the kobold, killing it? With Power Attack, he can easily beat the hardness of the stone.

Because then you run into the "damaging an object rules" which say that, regardless of hardness, if the weapon you are using is unsuited to dealing damage to a particular object then it potentially does nothing. In much the same way as you cannot dungeon tunnel with adamantine arrows you don't get to do so using your bare fists.

Its a part of the whole "martials must be chained to a low powered version of reality" schtick.

There is no rules conflict here.

Fighters are suited to punch chunks out of walls with their fists. It's way less powerful than stopping time or teleporting.

Wizards, not having been trained in fighting like Fighters have, would not be able to accomplish this, unless they were of an archetype that made them more suited.

So by RAW, it is allowed.

I mean, Fighters can jump almost from orbit and survive, punching a rock from a wall is nothing. Assuming they can do enough damage to overcome the hardness, I see no reason to disallow it.

Well, actually...

Ineffective Weapons wrote:
Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i'd say a level 20 fighter's fist is a hammer (must... resist... to.. make dr... horribles sing along blog... reference)


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Bandw2 wrote:
i'd say a level 20 fighter's fist is a hammer (must... resist... to.. make dr... horribles sing along blog... reference)

A monk's would be, maybe a barbarian's if they had a rage power for that kind of thing going, but a fighter's? They're all about weapon and armor usage, plus being brave (hah!). None of that translates into, "I punch things so hard their molecules cry and begin to scatter". I can no more see a fighter's fist qualifying for shattering rock than a rogue's or a wizards by default, even with a lot of strength behind it. Remember, a non-lethal bean bag round fired from a riot gun will hurt a LOT...but not if you're a brick wall. Substitute bean bag round for fist and riot gun for high-Strength unarmed attack and I think you get my meaning. Not that I don't think fighters should be able to do this, the rules just seem to disagree, as usual.

Dark Archive

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Bandw2 wrote:
i'd say a level 20 fighter's fist is a hammer (must... resist... to.. make dr... horribles sing along blog... reference)

GO NO FURTHER, YE WHO CANNOT TAKE A JOKE:
The hammer is my penis.

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

can get weapon training natural...


Bandw2 wrote:
can get weapon training natural...

Weapon training (firearms) wouldn't help him shoot down a wall any faster with the non-lethal rounds I mentioned earlier, so why would weapon training (unarmed) help with his fists? Again, this isn't about his skill level, which is what weapon training augments, it's about the delivery mechanism being unsuited to properly distribute enough force in a manner to actually damage the target object. To give another, perhaps more helpful examples, think of if you gave the fighter a wooden bat and had him go to town on the stone wall/pillar. Which do you think breaks first, the bat or the wall? The bones in your hand and arm are NOT as solid as the bat, soooooo...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
can get weapon training natural...
Weapon training (firearms) wouldn't help him shoot down a wall any faster with the non-lethal rounds I mentioned earlier, so why would weapon training (unarmed) help with his fists? Again, this isn't about his skill level, which is what weapon training augments, it's about the delivery mechanism being unsuited to properly distribute enough force in a manner to actually damage the target object. To give another, perhaps more helpful examples, think of if you gave the fighter a wooden bat and had him go to town on the stone wall/pillar. Which do you think breaks first, the bat or the wall? The bones in your hand and arm are NOT as solid as the bat, soooooo...

in PF the wall, especially if he had weapon training sports equipment.


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A Fighter's Unarmed Strike will damage a stone wall the same way a Wizard's Fireball will.
That's to say, it won't. Sorry.


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I wonder how a thread about martial/caster disparity has devolved to punching a stone wall, naked, while a kobold sits on a patio, eating popcorn, and watches the show unfold.


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Bandw2 wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
can get weapon training natural...
Weapon training (firearms) wouldn't help him shoot down a wall any faster with the non-lethal rounds I mentioned earlier, so why would weapon training (unarmed) help with his fists? Again, this isn't about his skill level, which is what weapon training augments, it's about the delivery mechanism being unsuited to properly distribute enough force in a manner to actually damage the target object. To give another, perhaps more helpful examples, think of if you gave the fighter a wooden bat and had him go to town on the stone wall/pillar. Which do you think breaks first, the bat or the wall? The bones in your hand and arm are NOT as solid as the bat, soooooo...
in PF the wall, especially if he had weapon training sports equipment.

Again, I agree that it SHOULD, but the rules I quoted earlier seem to disagree. The bat isn't a pick and it's not really a hammer either. More specifically, a bat isn't designed to breaking through stone. If there wasn't this one line in the entry on objects and breaking them, I'd be agreeing with you, but RAW once again spoils a martial's fun.


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shroudb wrote:
I wonder how a thread about martial/caster disparity has devolved to punching a stone wall, naked, while a kobold sits on a patio, eating popcorn, and watches the show unfold.

Welcome to the Paizo Boards! Where the topic changes mid-post and your FAQ requests don't matter.


I just roughed out a naked fighter build...
It's designed primarily around avoiding/deflecting/snatching ranged weapons and throwing them back.

AC is crap, but...

Punch for 1D3+14, crit 19-20/x3
Autoconfirm crits (weapon mastery).
due to feats, forces Fort save DC 30 to blind permanently AND DC 30 to deafen permanently.

Can snatch arrows/bolts/bullets and throw them back as ranged weapons.
Bolts/arrows:

1D4+18 rolling on 19 to hit.

Full build not available, as I'm at work, but suffice to say this involved spending total WBL on manuals/tomes, so he has +5 to all stats.

STR 22
DEX 20
CON 20
INT 18
WIS 18
CHA 16

I gave him a decent charisma cause he's naked all the time.

Feats:
Toughness, Dodge, Improved Unarmed, Focus:Unarmed, Deflect Arrows, Specialization-Unarmed, Snatch arrows, Throw Anything, Combat Expertise, Greater Focus: Unarmed, Improved Disarm, Disarming Strike, Greater Disarm, Greater Specialization: Unarmed, Critical Focus: Unarmed, Improved Critical: Unarmed, Blinding Critical, Deafening Critical, Critical Mastery, Deadly Aim, Defensive Weapon Training, Disposable Weapon

Weapon Groups: Natural (+4), Bows (+3), Crossbows (+2), Firearms (+1). This gives a +3 AC to most ranged attacks due to Defensive Weapon Training.

Tactics: While snatching shots fired at him, he approaches enemies, throwing their ammo back at them.

When he reaches them, he punches their heads off.

Skills maxed out:

Acrobatics, Climb, Swim, Survival, Jump, Diplomacy (he's naked)

Level bonus goes to hitpoints. Didn't calculate HP or AC, but you get the idea.

Crap saves, but would totally curbstomp that damn kobold.


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Wait... it requires a specialized 20th level fighter, built specifically for that purpose, to defeat a kobold?


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Neo2151 wrote:

A Fighter's Unarmed Strike will damage a stone wall the same way a Wizard's Fireball will.

That's to say, it won't. Sorry.

The depressingly hilarious truth is that it actually would. There's nothing by RAW that specifically excludes such an effect from damaging a stone wall, just that since it's energy damage and not obviously something that works particularly well against stone, said damage is halved. So, an average damage fireball doing 35 damage would be halved to 17, reduced by 8 because of the stone's hardness, and actually get through to do 7 damage to the wall, or 20% of the spells initial effect. That's compared to 0% from the fighter's fist, since RAW specifically prevents him from doing anything of the sort.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Wait... it requires a specialized 20th level fighter, built specifically for that purpose, to defeat a kobold?

I could probably do it earlier, but we were talking about a 20th level one, so that's what I made.

:D

Naked Fighter. The idea is really growing on me, so to speak.


he has snatch arrows at level 5, and is naked, facing an opponent on top of a greased pillar he can't climb.


I mean, this guy would have a TOUCH AC of 25, naked, against Bows, Crossbows, Guns.

31 if he goes full defense.


alexd1976 wrote:
he has snatch arrows at level 5, and is naked, facing an opponent on top of a greased pillar he can't climb.

It doesn't have to be greased. As long as it's simply a smooth stone surface, the Climb DC is infinity. Because at level 20 in a fantasy game, expecting someone to be able to climb 30 ft. of a smooth stone surface when they're the best damn climber the multi-verse has ever seen just doesn't make sense. He can try jumping, of course, but his maximum result of 48 (I'm assuming he took a trait to get it as a class skill) means that with a running jump he only gets 12 feet into the air. That's not even half-way.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

A Fighter's Unarmed Strike will damage a stone wall the same way a Wizard's Fireball will.

That's to say, it won't. Sorry.
The depressingly hilarious truth is that it actually would. There's nothing by RAW that specifically excludes such an effect from damaging a stone wall, just that since it's energy damage and not obviously something that works particularly well against stone, said damage is halved. So, an average damage fireball doing 35 damage would be halved to 17, reduced by 8 because of the stone's hardness, and actually get through to do 7 damage to the wall, or 20% of the spells initial effect. That's compared to 0% from the fighter's fist, since RAW specifically prevents him from doing anything of the sort.

I don't agree with this statement. Whether or not the fighters hand counts as an appropriate tool is subject to ruling, it has not been explicitly called out. Someone who can survive a fall from orbit and permanently blind AND deafen someone in one punch... while naked...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
shroudb wrote:
I wonder how a thread about martial/caster disparity has devolved to punching a stone wall, naked, while a kobold sits on a patio, eating popcorn, and watches the show unfold.

kobolds are hilarious that way.


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I would like to point out that I didn't even give Naked Fighter the Power Attack feat...

He could be punching for 1D3+26 with Power Attack.


alexd1976 wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

A Fighter's Unarmed Strike will damage a stone wall the same way a Wizard's Fireball will.

That's to say, it won't. Sorry.
The depressingly hilarious truth is that it actually would. There's nothing by RAW that specifically excludes such an effect from damaging a stone wall, just that since it's energy damage and not obviously something that works particularly well against stone, said damage is halved. So, an average damage fireball doing 35 damage would be halved to 17, reduced by 8 because of the stone's hardness, and actually get through to do 7 damage to the wall, or 20% of the spells initial effect. That's compared to 0% from the fighter's fist, since RAW specifically prevents him from doing anything of the sort.
I don't agree with this statement. Whether or not the fighters hand counts as an appropriate tool is subject to ruling, it has not been explicitly called out. Someone who can survive a fall from orbit and permanently blind AND deafen someone in one punch... while naked...

It's subject to GM fiat/house-rule of course, but that doesn't change RAW. If you read that part I linked from the SRD earlier, you'll see it states that most melee weapons have little effect on a stone wall unless they're designed for it. What 'little effect' constitutes might be up to GM scrutiny, but considering the first sentence of that section described certain types of weapons being effectively unable to deal damage to some objects at all, it seems that the specific instance we're examining is simply a 'no damage done' one. Plus, I'm not sure what being physically tough or knowing how to pluck an eye from a socket has to do with punching stone. We don't say that wizards, with their in-depth knowledge of magic, should know how to grant spells to their staff / apprentices ala divine magic, right?


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Wait... it requires a specialized 20th level fighter, built specifically for that purpose, to defeat a kobold?

Well, of course - if you design the scenario to specifically take away all salient class features from the fighter but leave the wizard or sorcerer the use of all of his ...


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RDM42 wrote:
Well, of course - if you design the scenario to specifically take away all salient class features from the fighter but leave the wizard or sorcerer the use of all of his ...

Sadly, that describes almost every scenario in D&D except (a) a toe-to-toe stand still slugfest, or (b) an antimagic zone.


Neo2151 wrote:

A Fighter's Unarmed Strike will damage a stone wall the same way a Wizard's Fireball will.

That's to say, it won't. Sorry.

What are you basing that opinion on?


... And then follow it up with ridiculous hyperbole.


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Dr. Evil wrote:
Using these "lasers," we punch a hole in the protective layer around the Earth, which we scientists call the "Ozone Layer." Slowly but surely, ultraviolet rays would pour in, increasing the risk of skin cancer.
Number Two wrote:
That also already has happened.

One man's hyperbole...


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

so if the fighter can do piercing damage with his unarmed strike, can he pick away at the wall?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Cerberus Seven wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

A Fighter's Unarmed Strike will damage a stone wall the same way a Wizard's Fireball will.

That's to say, it won't. Sorry.
The depressingly hilarious truth is that it actually would. There's nothing by RAW that specifically excludes such an effect from damaging a stone wall, just that since it's energy damage and not obviously something that works particularly well against stone, said damage is halved. So, an average damage fireball doing 35 damage would be halved to 17, reduced by 8 because of the stone's hardness, and actually get through to do 7 damage to the wall, or 20% of the spells initial effect. That's compared to 0% from the fighter's fist, since RAW specifically prevents him from doing anything of the sort.
I don't agree with this statement. Whether or not the fighters hand counts as an appropriate tool is subject to ruling, it has not been explicitly called out. Someone who can survive a fall from orbit and permanently blind AND deafen someone in one punch... while naked...
It's subject to GM fiat/house-rule of course, but that doesn't change RAW. If you read that part I linked from the SRD earlier, you'll see it states that most melee weapons have little effect on a stone wall unless they're designed for it. What 'little effect' constitutes might be up to GM scrutiny, but considering the first sentence of that section described certain types of weapons being effectively unable to deal damage to some objects at all, it seems that the specific instance we're examining is simply a 'no damage done' one. Plus, I'm not sure what being physically tough or knowing how to pluck an eye from a socket has to do with punching stone. We don't say that wizards, with their in-depth knowledge of magic, should know how to grant spells to their staff / apprentices ala divine magic, right?

I think the more salient argument is that the rules you quoted actually require the weapon to be designed for the purpose of breaking stone. Unless you're playing a dwarf Fighter with documents of lineage showing that your bloodline is a product of selective breeding intended to create a specialized breed of dwarven bare-handed stone smashers, that's going to be a hard qualification to meet.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
I find having a solid ruleset leaves me more time for cooperative roleplay as I don't have to spend time working around the rules instead of with them.

This may be the most wonderful sentence ever uttered.


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Hammers already can be used to damage walls, according to the CRB. and I've seen people break stone slabs wth their fists. I don't see any reason why a 20th level fighter shouldn't be able to break up some stone with their fists.

And those arrows have pointy heads. Should be able to use them to damage the stone as well, as piercing weapons like the pick can be used. I'd have a hard time believing a rapier can be used for such, but a short point should be able to.

Another idea: one could argue that a power attacking unarmed strike from a 20th level fighter is equivalent to a battering ram, and per the rules a battering ram can damage walls, even though it's just a bludgeoning weapon. A standard ram does 3d6, where as the above mentioned fighter does 1d3+26. Minimum damage is more than a battering ram's maximum damage.

Just out of curiosity, what feats and traits are available to increase the ability to damage objects?


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Cerberus Seven wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

A Fighter's Unarmed Strike will damage a stone wall the same way a Wizard's Fireball will.

That's to say, it won't. Sorry.
The depressingly hilarious truth is that it actually would. There's nothing by RAW that specifically excludes such an effect from damaging a stone wall, just that since it's energy damage and not obviously something that works particularly well against stone, said damage is halved. So, an average damage fireball doing 35 damage would be halved to 17, reduced by 8 because of the stone's hardness, and actually get through to do 7 damage to the wall, or 20% of the spells initial effect. That's compared to 0% from the fighter's fist, since RAW specifically prevents him from doing anything of the sort.

This reminds me of a game I ran a long time ago that reached epic levels. This was 3.5 but without some of the cheesier elements and mostly unoptimized charcters. However, in this one scene in a tower, one of the party's wizards (it was a big party with mostly casters plus a barbarian) the guy who loved fireball type spells chucked a bigass fireball with some metamagics attached to it (maximize, admixtured to acid, etc) into a room full of baddies.

Well the baddies snuffed it...along with the floor, the ceiling, and the walls. There was just a big hole left where everything was supposed to be, because the damage so utterly rocked the walls and stuff that it just broke everything. In 3.5, acid and sonic damage were not halved before applying hardness as in Pathfinder, so he just dealt nearly 200 damage to the inanimate and unattended objects and environment (they don't get a save) and vaporized 'em.

The barbarian was like, "OMG, that was the most epic and cool thing! We don't even have to find the staircase down to the next level now!"


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RDM42 wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Wait... it requires a specialized 20th level fighter, built specifically for that purpose, to defeat a kobold?
Well, of course - if you design the scenario to specifically take away all salient class features from the fighter but leave the wizard or sorcerer the use of all of his ...

None of the fighters Class Features have been removed. This has been pointed out to you several times. If you keep using this claim in an attempt to weaken your opponent's arguments, I'm going to start accusing you of deliberately lying. Please stop.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

let's remove all the class features too, two level 1 commoners stand in a room being shot at by a kobold with a light crossbow and 2000 bolts atop a 10x10x30 ft pillar, with no handholds and perfectly smooth.

how do they kill the kobold.


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But commoners are totally viable and balanced with every other class! Look at their class features. How many of those class features can be negated by circumstances? That's right, NONE! Commoners are the most versatile class in the game. Just because they don't deal 31000235 DPR doesn't mean they're not good!


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Naked Fighter is designed to smash things.

If I swapped ONE feat out, the build I posted would do 1D3+26 with a bare-knuckled punch.

He permanently deafens AND blinds people on criticals (which are auto-confirmed, threaten on a 19+ and do x3 damage), DC 30 FORT save (for each effect).

A critical hit from this guy will do at LEAST 81 points of damage, with his bare hands, NAKED. In addition to probably blinding and deafening you.

Tell me this man can't break stone, I dare you.

Stop trying to crap on martials and at least let them do what the rules let them do!

Naked Fighter is an appropriate tool for smashing rock. I have declared it so, as his creator. His purpose is to nakedly smash through the earth, woo women and impress everyone with his ability deflect even BULLETS!

Did I mention his AC of 31 against ranged attacks? Even if you hit, he automatically deflects or snatches the first shot!

NAKED FIGHTER!!!

This guy is so tough he can knock out a freaking CASTLE.


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Bandw2 wrote:

let's remove all the class features too, two level 1 commoners stand in a room being shot at by a kobold with a light crossbow and 2000 bolts atop a 10x10x30 ft pillar, with no handholds and perfectly smooth.

how do they kill the kobold.

They get really lucky with their 5% chance to hit the kobold by throwing the bolts back at it and pray to the gods hat they don't get hit with the kobold's 65% chance to hit.

Edit: the second guy waits for the first guy to die. Then he uses the other guy's body as total or partial cover while throwing the bolts back at the kobold.


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Bandw2 wrote:

let's remove all the class features too, two level 1 commoners stand in a room being shot at by a kobold with a light crossbow and 2000 bolts atop a 10x10x30 ft pillar, with no handholds and perfectly smooth.

how do they kill the kobold.

they run around the pillar, making the kobold dizzy, it slips and falls breaking his neck?

alternative. commoner No1 sacrifices commoner 2 to chtulu. chtulu devours kobold, and then commoner 1.


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First commoner uses second commoner as cover. Kobold eventually runs out of bolts. First commoner eats second commoner, Kobold starves to death.

Commoners win, with 50% attrition.


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Cerberus Seven wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
can get weapon training natural...
Weapon training (firearms) wouldn't help him shoot down a wall any faster with the non-lethal rounds I mentioned earlier, so why would weapon training (unarmed) help with his fists? Again, this isn't about his skill level, which is what weapon training augments, it's about the delivery mechanism being unsuited to properly distribute enough force in a manner to actually damage the target object. To give another, perhaps more helpful examples, think of if you gave the fighter a wooden bat and had him go to town on the stone wall/pillar. Which do you think breaks first, the bat or the wall? The bones in your hand and arm are NOT as solid as the bat, soooooo...

my arm would be mangled I'm sure. But I'm not a guy who can dive in to lava, swim out 6 seconds later, brush it off, and be just fine if a bit singed. So I don't think the capabilities of real human being are at all a viable estimator of the capabilities of 20th level characters. There's at least an order of magnitude difference. Saying that guy fist isn't an appropriate weapon is the absurd thing. He can punch a hole in a stone golem which is the same exact material. His hands can withstand more damage than literally any weapon he could possibly use against a wall short of an artifact.

And the same goes for a level 20 wizard punching a wall because being only 50% as durable is close enough. If he's strong enough, there's no logical reason he can't do it. It's not a special fighter thing. There's no rule to support that, but every rule in the game supports level 20 characters being superhuman, even when only mundanely so.


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chocobot wrote:

my arm would be mangled I'm sure. But I'm not a guy who can dive in to lava, swim out 6 seconds later, brush it off, and be just fine if a bit singed. So I don't think the capabilities of real human being are at all a viable estimator of the capabilities of 20th level characters. There's at least an order of magnitude difference. Saying that guy fist isn't an appropriate weapon is the absurd thing. He can punch a hole in a stone golem which is the same exact material. His hands can withstand more damage than literally any weapon he could possibly use against a wall short of an artifact.

And the same goes for a level 20 wizard punching a wall because being only 50% as durable is close enough. If he's strong enough, there's no logical reason he can't do it. It's not a special fighter thing. There's no rule to support that, but every rule in the game supports level 20 characters being superhuman, even when only mundanely so.

First off, that little dip in lava is gonna come out to between 105 and 175 points of fire damage on average. At max level with about a +7 mod to hit point per HD, that's gonna be average over half your hp. Let's not pretend a fighter is gonna just shrug that off, m'kay?

Second, as I've stated repeatedly, I agree that he should be able to smash the column. The rules, however, don't. Please read what I'm saying more closely next time. I'm saying that fighters and similar classes are left to the basic mechanics that attempt to emulate skilled people using real-life physics rather than high-fantasy heroes of legend. Wizards get to jump across space and the planes and warp reality, clerics get to resurrect the dead and annihilate whole swathes of alignment-opposed enemies, druids can shapeshift and control the weather, bards can reprogram your mind and inspire whole armies to twice their normal level of offensive combat proficiency, the list goes on. They can do this because their powers aren't bound to the laws of nature as we understand them, they get around that due to magic. Fighters don't get even the smallest bit of magic, so the system leaves them behind in terms of over-all power and versatility. That's why a comparison of how a fist, or a bat, won't normally smash through a brick wall and instead GETS smashed is relevant here, because Pathfinder forces fighters into that level of realism rather than acting like the super-powered heroes of legend they should be by level 20.


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"Okay, to recap last session you were captured by the dragon tyrant Drano. You all wake up in a cell. Bob couldn't make it today so his {sorcerer|fighter} is in a Geonosys arena type dealy with Drano's kobold jester on a smooth 30' pillar with a crossbow."

Now, is the response going to be "With no armor or stat boosters wouldn't the 1d6 bolts add up and kill him before we can rescue him?" or "But his character knows dominate monster, fly, dimension door, and form of the dragon III off the top of my head, and can breath a 60' line of electricity three times a day, surely he'd get out of that situation on his own."

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