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I recently came across the spell Alter Summon Monster from Pathfinder Player Companion: Monster Summoner's Handbook and I can't help but wonder if it actually is intended to interact with Mount/Communal Mount and the heightened versions of those (or just Phantom Steed etc) the way I read it to do. For reference, here is the spell:
You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature's ally spell. The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target. The new creature cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support it. The target can attempt a Will saving throw to negate this effect, but if the target is under your control, it receives no saving throw. Alter summoned monster does not alter the duration of the spell that summoned the target, nor does it affect any additional creatures summoned by the same spell as the target. The new creature has the same conditions and amount of damage as the target creature, and remains affected by all curses, diseases, poisons, and penalties that affected the target, but no other spells or effects carry over. Alter summoned monster is a spell of the same alignment type or types as the creature for which you exchange the target. An eidolon can't be targeted by this spell.
All the various Mount spells are conjuration (summoning) spells, so they fulfill the only requirement of the spell. However the mount spells have a duration of 2/hours level, lasting easily the whole day after a few levels. This basically allow you to expend a 2nd level spell + another spell to get a summon monster lasting the whole day. For a 2nd level spell + an 2nd level spell this is probably fine, but for a 2nd level spell + a 4th level spell to get a 4th level spell summon lasting the whole day seems a bit much. Is this the intended behavior? Also, Heightened Mount or Heightened Communal Mount cast as a 4th level spell would by my reading allow you to replace the Mount(s) with a 4th level summon (or whatever level you chose to heighten it to), giving you some nice added flexibility to this combination. Is there any reason this shouldn't work?
Unfortunately my questions of this spell doesn't stop there. Summoners get access to this spell. Summoners can cast Summon Monster IV as a 3rd level spell and Summon Monster VII as a 5th level spell. If they target a 3rd level mount, or a 5th level mount, would they then get to swap it with a 4th and 7th level summon monster respectively? This could essentially give access to summon monster IV for the whole day at level 5 with coordination with a wizard or witch and access to Summon Monster VII at level 9 (this gets much worse with gestalt, but that isn't paizo rules even if a lot of people play PF with them so lets not cover that). Is this the intended behavior? It would be very nice to get a FAQ and/or developer answer for this.
Well, first, I don't think the intention was to spend a second spell to get day-long summoned monsters. Bad spell design and/or wording that it seems able to do this, but I'm pretty sure RAI is a resounding "NO!".
Second, maybe the answer is not in the spell description but is in the spell title instead: you can use it to alter a "Summon Monster" spell as the title states, but not to alter other conjuration spells. This might fit nicely with what I believe to be the RAI except I bet the RAI was to also allow you to alter Summon Nature's Ally spells too.
It's all badly worded, but we can probably reasonably agree that it should not let you get any summoned monster/natures's ally for the whole day, or even for 2 hours.
One caveat to point out is that it must be of the same level or lower. So Mount, would allow for Summon Monster I, Mount, Communal would allow for Summon Monster I & II, Phantom Steed for I - III, and Phantom Steed, Communal for I - IV.
Still, having a Summon Monster IV critter for 1 hour/level would be nice.
EDIT: Second read through of the OP's post I see that is what you were saying, so please excuse me pointing that out :D
References:
Alter Summoned Monster "The new creature has the same conditions and amount of damage as the target creature..."
Summon Monster "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability."
Summon Natures Ally "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability."
Mount "...to serve you as a mount."
Phantom Steed "It does not fight, but animals shun it and refuse to attack it."
Mount, Communal "This spell functions like mount..."
Phantom Steed, Communal "This spell functions like phantom steed..."
I think this works fine. However, the Tiger, Dire wolf or Giant Wasp you got for the PS,C will still function as PS,C and not SM4. For PS, you could ride a Crocodile or a Shark. For M,C, you could have a Hell Hound or a Giant Spider for a mount.
This basically changes the form of the conjured creature, not what it does. You do get sensory and movement abilities, but they will no more attack than a Mount or Steed would. Seems OK to me.
I see this spell being used on enemy summons to make them less effective, and on yours to poach forms from other summons lists.
Summon Totem Creature takes 10 minutes to cast, but lasts 1 hour. It acts like SM3 and is 3rd level. This would be a great one to swap.
/cevah
Nice find. If your GM goes with the "docile mount", you should be able to Wartrain Mount your way out of that, but that limits you to animals.
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References:
Alter Summoned Monster "The new creature has the same conditions and amount of damage as the target creature..."
Summon Monster "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability."
Summon Natures Ally "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability."
Mount "...to serve you as a mount."
Phantom Steed "It does not fight, but animals shun it and refuse to attack it."
Mount, Communal "This spell functions like mount..."
Phantom Steed, Communal "This spell functions like phantom steed..."I think this works fine. However, the Tiger, Dire wolf or Giant Wasp you got for the PS,C will still function as PS,C and not SM4. For PS, you could ride a Crocodile or a Shark. For M,C, you could have a Hell Hound or a Giant Spider for a mount.
This basically changes the form of the conjured creature, not what it does. You do get sensory and movement abilities, but they will no more attack than a Mount or Steed would. Seems OK to me.
I see this spell being used on enemy summons to make them less effective, and on yours to poach forms from other summons lists.
Summon Totem Creature takes 10 minutes to cast, but lasts 1 hour. It acts like SM3 and is 3rd level. This would be a great one to swap.
/cevah
So then I could have a magma elemental mount?!? :-D
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An all day summon can be powerful, but let's not forget that this is a level 1 monster. How broken is having an all day dire rat really? And you can't cast this until third level anyway. Burning a first and second level spell for an all day weak monster seems like a fair trade to me.
At higher levels this spell becomes very useful because many monsters come with their own compliment of spells. Let's say you summon a succubus to dominate a person and make them attack their allies. It works but wait, your party is taking damage. Change the succubus to an Azata and start casting cure serious wounds. Then once those are used up pop in a shadow demon and get some shadow evocations spells going. I suppose you could even change it to the exact same creature type as a way to "reset" its once-per-day abilities. Oh yes, the shenanigans that could be had are wonderful.
Summon mount isn't the only spell that could be "altered" in this way. What about Summon Accuser? That one lasts for 10 minutes/level and it's a 4th level spell.
Although...now that I think about it, you could take the Heighten metamagic feat and pump summon mount up as high as you like. Ok, now that seems a bit over powered. "Behold my army of shadow demons!"
Oooo, Ok, how about this: Craft a wand of Heightened summon mount (lvl 4), then get a wand of Alter Summoned Monster. Now cast all 50 charges of the mount wand and create your very own all-day zoo (or 50 giant wasps could be fun too)
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Well, if you use this on a heightened Mount spell, and then sap it for a Succubus, you now have a much better creature to mount. ... Should this be mentioned on the Succubus in a grapple thread? There is a lot more talking about mounts there. :-)
/cevah
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Can you cast Summon Monster V to summon 1d4+1 crocodiles, then cast Alter Summon Monster to turn each one into a Kyton?
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"... nor does it affect any additional creatures summoned by the same spell as the target"
You can only turn one of the crocs into a kyton.
Maybe... Although a familiar with a wand may have an issue with the monsters getting a saving throw, since the creatures aren't under the control of the familiar.
You could command them not to as part of your control of them.
A horse?
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There is a whole other thread about this topic in the rules thread.
I took that one to a pretty stupid place though.
The issue in that one was someone trying to heighten the mount spell, to say a level 7 slot. Since it now counts as a level 7 spell you can change the mount into a level 7 summoned monster which hangs arund for 2hrs per level.
Doesn't seem RAI and as I said, I went all kinds of ridiculous in rules lawyering to stop it. My real advice, just run it like a mount that doesn't attack, but at least its hella tough and makes you feel awesome.
Just learned of a new twist:
Greater Summoned Shell
Whenever the familiar's master casts a summon monster spell, if the familiar is within the spell's range, it can choose to inhabit the body of one creature summoned by the spell. While inhabiting the body, the familiar maintains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores and its familiar powers, but otherwise gains the statistics and abilities of the summoned creature.
When the spell ends, or the summoned creature's hit points are reduced to 0, the familiar is expelled without suffering any negative effects.
Have your two-hour/level mount spell with a better creature, fully controlled by your familiar. Now that bad-a$$ monster is fully on your team under the direction of your familiar.
/cevah
Just learned of a new twist:
Greater Summoned Shell
Whenever the familiar's master casts a summon monster spell, if the familiar is within the spell's range, it can choose to inhabit the body of one creature summoned by the spell. While inhabiting the body, the familiar maintains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores and its familiar powers, but otherwise gains the statistics and abilities of the summoned creature.
When the spell ends, or the summoned creature's hit points are reduced to 0, the familiar is expelled without suffering any negative effects.
Have your two-hour/level mount spell with a better creature, fully controlled by your familiar. Now that bad-a$$ monster is fully on your team under the direction of your familiar.
/cevah
Well then... what about this?
Scouting Summons (Metamagic)
Your experiments with the connection between summoners and the creatures they summon have taught you to see through the eyes of a summoned creature for a short time.
Prerequisite(s): Spell Focus (conjuration), ability to cast magic jar.
Benefit(s): When casting a conjuration (summoning) spell that summons a single creature, you can possess the creature as per magic jar (but with no receptacle necessary).
If the creature takes damage while you possess it, you must succeed at a concentration check (DC equal to the amount of damage taken) or be ejected from the creature immediately.
If the creature takes enough damage to reduce it to 0 hit points or fewer, you are immediately ejected from the creature and take an amount of damage equal to double the level of the spell slot used to summon that creature. A scouting summons spell takes up a spell slot 2 levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Level Increase: +2 (a scouting summons spell uses up a spell slot 2 levels higher than the spell's actual level.)
If you are worried about your familiar possessing the 2 hour/level summoned creature and thus being on your side, what about YOUR CHARACTER possessing said creature?
Just learned of a new twist:
Greater Summoned Shell
Whenever the familiar's master casts a summon monster spell, if the familiar is within the spell's range, it can choose to inhabit the body of one creature summoned by the spell. While inhabiting the body, the familiar maintains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores and its familiar powers, but otherwise gains the statistics and abilities of the summoned creature.
When the spell ends, or the summoned creature's hit points are reduced to 0, the familiar is expelled without suffering any negative effects.
Have your two-hour/level mount spell with a better creature, fully controlled by your familiar. Now that bad-a$$ monster is fully on your team under the direction of your familiar.
/cevah
Well then... what about this?
Scouting Summons (Metamagic)
If you are worried about your familiar possessing the 2 hour/level summoned creature and thus being on your side, what about YOUR CHARACTER possessing said creature?Your experiments with the connection between summoners and the creatures they summon have taught you to see through the eyes of a summoned creature for a short time.
Prerequisite(s): Spell Focus (conjuration), ability to cast magic jar.
Benefit(s): When casting a conjuration (summoning) spell that summons a single creature, you can possess the creature as per magic jar (but with no receptacle necessary).
If the creature takes damage while you possess it, you must succeed at a concentration check (DC equal to the amount of damage taken) or be ejected from the creature immediately.
If the creature takes enough damage to reduce it to 0 hit points or fewer, you are immediately ejected from the creature and take an amount of damage equal to double the level of the spell slot used to summon that creature. A scouting summons spell takes up a spell slot 2 levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Level Increase: +2 (a scouting summons spell uses up a spell slot 2 levels higher than the spell's actual level.)
Linkified.
Sounds much worse. Every time the summons is hit, you might be ejected? If brought to zero, you take damage as you are ejected. For an upside, you don't need a familiar.
/cevah
Nice find. If your GM goes with the "docile mount", you should be able to Wartrain Mount your way out of that, but that limits you to animals.
I think this class may start seeing some popularity if this isn't ruled to not work.
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There is nothing about mounts that make them inherently docile, nor is there anything that disallows them from attacking.
By RAW, as is custom in the Rules Forum, it is entirely legal to combine the Mount spell with Altered Summon Monster and obtain 2 hour/level summons.
I will go one step further in saying that it is also legal to use Heighten Spell Metamagic to increase the level of the Mount spell, and therefore increase the level of Summon Monster you can trade for it.
This topic has already been debated to death. There are no new discussions on it's legality, only discussion on it's intent. And even then I would allow it. Planar Binding can do the same with creatures much stronger when comparing CR, only for days/level instead of hours/level. And it doesn't require the expenditure of a feat. Furthermore, there are much less restrictions on "called" monsters than there are on "summoned" monsters.
The only use this trick has is in utility, since their use in combat as primary meatshields mean that most of the time, they end up lasting not much longer than a regular Summon Monster X spell would. Even in support, many of these utility abilities have limited uses per day, and are of little value once said time is up.
It sounds a lot more overpowered than it actually is.
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References:
Alter Summoned Monster "The new creature has the same conditions and amount of damage as the target creature..."
Summon Monster "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability."
Summon Natures Ally "It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability."
Mount "...to serve you as a mount."
Phantom Steed "It does not fight, but animals shun it and refuse to attack it."
Mount, Communal "This spell functions like mount..."
Phantom Steed, Communal "This spell functions like phantom steed..."I think this works fine. However, the Tiger, Dire wolf or Giant Wasp you got for the PS,C will still function as PS,C and not SM4. For PS, you could ride a Crocodile or a Shark. For M,C, you could have a Hell Hound or a Giant Spider for a mount.
T
/cevah
Still not convinced they are "conditions" at all, even less so when considered in context. That line is clearly talking about damage and effects. Strictly RAW this does not strike me as a strong counter argument. It clearly appears legitimate.
It seems a little excessive, and RAI is unclear, but a lot of things that seem OP actually aren't in real play. This is one I'll be keeping a close eye on, and if any player takes it will be warned it may be yoinked (and a free replacement) as OP. If this is a real problem it'll soon be banned by PFS. Where I play it has not been universally adopted yet, so we shall see.
PFS bans a great many things that aren't real problems. I wouldn't suggest using that for your measuring stick but the choice is naturally yours to make.
True, There are a lot of PFS decisions I don't agree with. But things they ban 'just because' they usually do right from the start. They also have a much larger pool of players providing feedback so problems come to light relatively quickly. It's a reasonable metric if used with eyes open though.
All the time. No where in the spell does it require a payment. Payment can provide a bonus, but if you succeed on the check you obtain a slave until the spell's duration ends [at which point most players kill it off or Modify Memory the thing]It sounds a lot more overpowered than it actually is.Not really.
Mount lacks some of the restrictive language present in Summon Monster, specifically teleportation and SLA's with costly material components, so there's almost no difference to a called creature in this respect.
Also, Augment Summons is almost guaranteed (which doesn't affect called creatures).
Touching Planar Binding, how often do you allow PCs to gain such service for free?
+1.
Have an 8th level Sorc5/Diabolist3 I'm GMing for.They have 24 charisma.
Got their partyMate to make them gloves of PlanarBinding 1/day (not lesser).
There's an outsider who can use DimAnchor at will, but doesn't have any teleportation itself.
Cha ain't great either.
They summon one of them, have them stick around to dimAnchor for the next summon, then dismiss them.
Or just blow wild arcana (mythic archmage path ability) to spontaneously do dimAnchor.
Still isn't much of a problem thus far.
It's effective, but not game-breaking.
As per RAW, OP's find works.
As per RAI, probably not.
As per my opinion?
I fail to see the big issue.
It's effective, but not broken.
Cool beans.
As written, i think you should be able to replace them with Summon Monster 3 creatures. But beware that this is the kind of thing that many GMs will find offensive, either banning it or finding ways to mess with it. You may have noticed that the official Pathfinder Society has banned the spell, probably for being abusable. Though if you are not in Pathfinder Society, your DM isn't expected to follow their rulings.
Also, this thread was two years old, which is a bit old for resurrecting in these boards. People get weird about it, but it is often a bad idea, because the rules can change a lot over that period of time. In the future, you should probably just start your own thread for questions like this.
Also, this thread wastwoyears old, which is a bit old for resurrecting in these boards. People get weird about it, but it is often a bad idea, because the rules can change a lot over that period of time. In the future, you should probably just start your own thread for questions like this.
Fixed that for you.
For combat, I think the best use is to summon 1d4+1 creatures for the summons, and then swap out one of them for a full level creature. For cool, I think the heightened mount is best.
/cevah