updated document slightly.
You say this is intended to address narrative disparity, but I see primarily combat abilities in your document. I don't think a Barbarian or Fighter need more DPR, stats, or special attacks; they need to be able to affect the narrative more directly.
You say this is intended to address narrative disparity, but I see primarily combat abilities in your document. I don't think a Barbarian or Fighter need more DPR, stats, or special attacks; they need to be able to affect the narrative more directly.
none of the abilities "should" directly increase DPR. you;re free to point out any ones that do this, i have removed a few ideas that were much to combat focused. the rest are abilities that increase combat utility or some form of narrative changing effect.
plan on adding stamina options for the badass talents...
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bumpity bump... I'm really considering giving fighters SR as this seems the most straightforward fix to the class... maybe call it "Spell Protection" instead (i.e. caster level check to cast *hostile* targeted spell against a fighter with DC equal to 10 + ftr_lvl; this way, area effects, rays, etc. still work normally against a fighter... not as good as SR, but covers all the save or suck usual suspects... hold person, dominate, etc.)
Any opinion or help with this would be greatly appreciated.
SR is usually best at 11+Level, but i'd feel hesitant to give it out for free, and it does nothing to solve their issue with narrative power...
also, sorry, didn't feel like making more rules this weekend.
Don't give it out for free. Give it out for "Never gaining magical abilities of any kind, including UMD ranks."
An Alternative is Level + Fort save, so it's low in the beginning, but can scale quite high afterwards.
==Aelryinth
Don't give it out for free. Give it out for "Never gaining magical abilities of any kind, including UMD ranks."
An Alternative is Level + Fort save, so it's low in the beginning, but can scale quite high afterwards.
==Aelryinth
that will give it 50% odds at someone with no bonuses to bypass SR at level 18... just saying.
You're forgetting it stacks with cloaks of Resistance and Great Fortitude, among other things, and Con stacking effects.
at level 10, with Great Fort and a Cloak +3, and 'only' 16 Con, that's SR 25.
At level 20, with a cloak +5, Con 22, and Great fort, and no other save bonuses, that's SR 45.
I said fort save, not fort bonus from class levels.
==Aelryinth
You're forgetting it stacks with cloaks of Resistance and Great Fortitude, among other things, and Con stacking effects.
at level 10, with Great Fort and a Cloak +3, and 'only' 16 Con, that's SR 25.
At level 20, with a cloak +5, Con 22, and Great fort, and no other save bonuses, that's SR 45.
I said fort save, not fort bonus from class levels.
==Aelryinth
hmm you are quite correct good sir. i did forget, looking at it... +3 level 10, 16 con, that's SR 22. seems pretty good.
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Problem with the Fort piggyback is that I'll end up with a player laughing at me behind that SR 25... hence I want to keep it pinned to Ftr levels.
Also, I revised my post earlier to make it only effective against hostile targeted spells. I don't want to suddenly bring the host of problems SR carries with it... That makes it slightly less good and more suited towards my main concern (constant save or suck / mind-control problem).
I'm usually pretty much by-the-book and I hate houserules (except if they addresss a grey area, such as spiked shields and bashing property stacking, which I allow since the shield build is slightly underdoggish...); I'm just wondering if this would be balanced at this point.
Problem with the Fort piggyback is that I'll end up with a player laughing at me behind that SR 25... hence I want to keep it pinned to Ftr levels.
Also, I revised my post earlier to make it only effective against hostile targeted spells. I don't want to suddenly bring the host of problems SR carries with it... That makes it slightly less good and more suited towards my main concern (constant save or suck / mind-control problem).
I'm usually pretty much by-the-book and I hate houserules (except if they addresss a grey area, such as spiked shields and bashing property stacking, which I allow since the shield build is slightly underdoggish...); I'm just wondering if this would be balanced at this point.
well it designed so that you;re way behind curve very unlikely to resist at early levels and at 20th level you resist consistently, with level 10 being even or so.
SR 11+level is 50% odds against same level and no CL or SR boosts.
Problem with the Fort piggyback is that I'll end up with a player laughing at me behind that SR 25... hence I want to keep it pinned to Ftr levels.
Also, I revised my post earlier to make it only effective against hostile targeted spells. I don't want to suddenly bring the host of problems SR carries with it... That makes it slightly less good and more suited towards my main concern (constant save or suck / mind-control problem).
I'm usually pretty much by-the-book and I hate houserules (except if they addresss a grey area, such as spiked shields and bashing property stacking, which I allow since the shield build is slightly underdoggish...); I'm just wondering if this would be balanced at this point.
You'll have him laughing at spells that allow SR.
Won't do any good for
conjurations/summons.
Walls.
SU abilities.
Ex abilities.
Gaze weapons.
Breath Weapons.
Heck, he can still be poisoned, get sick/catch disease.
It'll allow him to do fun things like run through lightning bolts and fireballs, just snarl at guys attempting to charge and dominate him...and still have to make the save for the pit spell, and still have to battle the summons dropped in front of him.
Oh, and he'd still take damage from standing in a bonfire.
I mean, seriously, the wizard can Call or Summon in a monster with SR, but the fighter having some is OP?
At high levels, the fighter can be basically immune to some magic. That's totally fine, it's the exact same as a barb or paladin being able to save against every magical spell. Just another layer of defense. Few people have a problem with that, SR just should not be an issue.
==Aelryinth
Also note that SR is generally considered Not a Defense by any character that plans for it.
Just look at the golem.
If you really want them to 'pay' for SR, having to roll against friendly buffs is steep as it is. You're basically forcing potion chugging and magic items to receive buffs everyone else gets for free.
I simply don't let them develop things like rage rounds, ki pools, SLA's or other magical abilities, even UMD. No magic is no magic.
I DO let the attune to specific casters, so they can the option of a) always resist the spell from that guy or b) always choose to NOT resist it if they like, but no spell on them endures more then ten minutes before the SR wipes it.
a) lets them draw agro and sit in the middle of a spellstorm of magic and get everything torn up around them by friendly casters while being immune.
b) lets them get buffs for short times, but not long duration ones.
==Aelryinth
It gets more fun when you use the 3.5 Mage killer feats that didn't let them defensive cast, punched all magical concealment, and punched all magical armor effects, the latter with auto-dispel kicked in.
Suddenly all that magic defensiveness didn't work, and polymorph spells, which almost always granted a dex bonus to AC or Nat Armor or SOMETHING, were touch attacks and auto-dispelled!
Hilarious how bad mages hated those feats, complete with -4 to caster level for each feat.
==Aelryinth
I dont know if making them nigh on immune is a great idea, you want maybe a maybe a 25% chance of failure?
Another idea, any spell that deals damage die, allow a save against for half damage
you want maybe a maybe a 25% chance of failure?More like 15%
So long as there is a realistic chance of failure im happy
SR 45 isn't nigh on immune. It means the Melee just is near impossible to attack directly with certain classes of spells.
You can still summon a solar to fight him.
He still falls down a pit.
He still has to hack through a wall.
And conjuration-based attack spells will STILL do damage to him...somehow...
It's just the mage has to change tactics, and "I dominatezez the fighter and turnz him against the party!" just doesn't work at ALL anymore.
What a shame.
==Aelryinth
That's...not a good idea.
BASE evocation isn't very strong, sure.
But evocation BUILDS are horrendously strong. And taking care of SR if you're willing to spend a feat or two on it is not that difficult.
I'd personally like conjuration direct damage spells to be SUBJECT to spell resistance. There's no reason they should be better then evocation in this regard.
The proper balance should be that evocation are fast, quick battle magic, and other spells are slower and unwieldy. Standard actions vs full attack actions, for example. That's how they should be presented.
==Aelryinth
I just dont like the idea of: bam, you are nigh on immune to almost everything a wizard is likely to first try on you. It defeats the purpose. Having an AC of 50 defeats the purpose, there should be SOME risk of failure.
45 SR, how do you go about beating that as a caster? I dont know a huge amount about SR but it just seems very high from what i understand.
A single talent shouldnt make it impossible for a wizard to fight you if he prepared spells that target SR for the day. Difficult yes, impossible no. Make sure that a same level caster with some small dedication has a 10% chance of success and it is fine
I'd be working on this more if i wasn't setting up stuff for my next campaign.
I just dont like the idea of: bam, you are nigh on immune to almost everything a wizard is likely to first try on you. It defeats the purpose. Having an AC of 50 defeats the purpose, there should be SOME risk of failure.
45 SR, how do you go about beating that as a caster? I dont know a huge amount about SR but it just seems very high from what i understand.
A single talent shouldnt make it impossible for a wizard to fight you if he prepared spells that target SR for the day. Difficult yes, impossible no. Make sure that a same level caster with some small dedication has a 10% chance of success and it is fine
This is a case of double standards.
If the wizard/monster is flying, and the fighter only has melee weapons, should we spontaneously nerf flying? It's unfair.
IF the opponent is in the water, and the fighter does not have the ability to breathe there, swim, or a piercing weapon, do we give him instant free action and water breathing? It's unfair.
If the opponent has SR, and the wizard has never bothered to invest in stuff to overcome SR, let's just get rid of it. That's fair!
Riiight. Because, you know, a fighter investing in stuff that forces the enemy to come to melee combat makes no sense.
AC 50? They invented touch attacks for a reason. A high level melee can hit +40 and higher on their attack rolls without too much trouble, and that's without spell buffs. High AC is nice, but there are ways around it.
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Keep in mind my variant means that a Fighter would have NO magical ability, he can't even UMD. It also means he can't get buffs from his friends, and healing him if he's unconscious might be...difficult without potions.
A Preferred spell doubling Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration and being an Elf is +30 to the SR roll...which autopasses basically every monster in the CR beastiary for the investment of 3 feats. So, he'd have to roll a 15 to hit this monster of a fighter with no magic...or he could just use indirect means to attack, instead.
If the opening salvo fails, GREAT. That's what the SR is there for. Force the enemy to regard the fighter as dangerous and waste actions on him, instead of smirking and disregarding him as a 5th wheel.
==Aelryinth
I just dont like the idea of: bam, you are nigh on immune to almost everything a wizard is likely to first try on you. It defeats the purpose. Having an AC of 50 defeats the purpose, there should be SOME risk of failure.
45 SR, how do you go about beating that as a caster? I dont know a huge amount about SR but it just seems very high from what i understand.
A single talent shouldnt make it impossible for a wizard to fight you if he prepared spells that target SR for the day. Difficult yes, impossible no. Make sure that a same level caster with some small dedication has a 10% chance of success and it is fine
This is a case of double standards.
If the wizard/monster is flying, and the fighter only has melee weapons, should we spontaneously nerf flying? It's unfair.
IF the opponent is in the water, and the fighter does not have the ability to breathe there, swim, or a piercing weapon, do we give him instant free action and water breathing? It's unfair.
If the opponent has SR, and the wizard has never bothered to invest in stuff to overcome SR, let's just get rid of it. That's fair!
stuff
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Stuff
Bold is mine.
NOTICE "SOME SMALL DEDICATION".
FLYING: Who doesnt carry a ranged weapon? If the fighter doesnt have even a PLAIN NON-MAGICAL bow, he is an idiot.
WATER: I do believe that EVERY SINGLE PC in the game has the ability to swim. So mute point. Also as a fighter probably has a high CON so can hold his breath for at least 5 rounds DURING combat. Also not having a piercing weapon DOES NOT MAKE YOU DO ZERO DAMAGE.
AC:"A high level melee can hit +40" DEDICATION TO MELEE!
Every example you gave and I gave are countered by a small degree of dedication. Thats what i want.
3 FEATS IS NOT A SMALL DEDICATION! IT IS MASSIVE. A single talent requiring 3 feats to put up a fight against? Thats 1/10th your badass requiring say 3/10 of the feats you get. That just seems too much.
The system you proposed is not the system i am arguing against, i am arguing against "bam, for free, MASS SR"
Wait, wait, 4 feats to Weapon Spec is not 'massive dedication?'
4 feats to Rage Powers and every class bonus to superstitious is not massive dedication?
4 feats to a single combat style, and then another 4 feats to another combat style is not 'massive dedication?'
Like I said, double standard.
Unless that fighter has 'massive dedication' to ranged attacks, the wizard can just fly out of range and be unhittable. Couple with wind wall, and unless you've got more 'massive dedication' in the form fo the +2 weapon enhancement that can punch through it, he's invulnerable.
Likewise, the fighter's movement in water is going to suck, his damage is going to suck, his ranged attack is going to be non-existent, and the aquatic enemy can just go down instead of up to completely avoid him.
Totally unfair without 'massive dedication' to being able to function in water.
You want to tell me which of these examples requires more 'massive dedication', a class which can simply use other tactics to go after the enemy (already listed above), or the one that has to spend feats and copious amounts of gold to deal with easily arranged situations?
Double standards all the way, man.
==Aelryinth
Wait, wait, 4 feats to Weapon Spec is not 'massive dedication?'
4 feats to Rage Powers and every class bonus to superstitious is not massive dedication?
4 feats to a single combat style, and then another 4 feats to another combat style is not 'massive dedication?'
when does not doing that make you 100% unable to do anything? NEVER.
There is always the chance of a nat 20. With SR there isnt. With Rage powers, not having those feats does not make you fail 100% of the time.
Unless that fighter has 'massive dedication' to ranged attacks, the wizard can just fly out of range and be unhittable. Couple with wind wall, and unless you've got more 'massive dedication' in the form fo the +2 weapon enhancement that can punch through it, he's invulnerable.
You call 8000GP a massive dedication? Wow.
Likewise, the fighter's movement in water is going to suck, his damage is going to suck, his ranged attack is going to be non-existent, and the aquatic enemy can just go down instead of up to completely avoid him.
Then the fight isnt happening and this is a non issue. Also, He is still capable of doing something without changing plans, he will suck at it yes, but it still has SOME chance of success.
The wizard is the only one THAT HAS to take 3 feats to be able to do ANYTHING in this situation. Make it that a nat 20 always succeeds on SR pen and it makes it better, as for even a level 1 wizard with no feats there is a CHANCE of success(5% but it is still there)
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Well, with the Eldritch Guardian archetype and Stamina Pool (and a buttload of potions) I pretty much concluded the fighter is "ok" now. Without those, can still be "ok" provided you have a group with proper wizard and cleric buffs.
To send a fighter on his own without magic buffs is kinda suicide past level 9 though...
A +2 Enhancement atop a +5 weapon is +48,000 gp out of the potential 200k it represents, in contrast to something desired.
A nat 20 does not go through a wind wall.
Giving up the ranged combat feats is -4 to hit (including no spec) ON TOP of the cost of, say, another 50k for a +5 weapon.
Yes, MASSIVE INVESTMENT.
And the wizard...can just Summon something.
After all, SR isn't even as good as an Anti-Magic Shell for protecting against magic, when it comes down to it. Even SR 45.
As for water: The wizard casts water breathing, free action, flying, and gets maybe a lightning bolt or something else ready to attack his target, probably a hold or dominate or flesh to stone or something. Just changes his spells. Maybe morphs into an aquatic creature.
Complete double standard.
==Aelryinth