So, we don't have indication that the AoO for moving into an occupied square is indeed the same one you'd provoked from moving out of threatened square.
The rules just say "They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent."
However, we also don't have indication that the 5 foot step protection from AoO is limited to only AoO for moving out of threatened areas. All it says is "Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity."
So, if we intepret the rules in absolute, a 5-foot step would avoid one, or both, or any AoO while moving into an occupied square. (I find that weird)
According to Skip Williams, in D&D 3.5, moving into an occupied square was considered regular movement, so you could tumble your way out of the AoO for that.
Since PF lacks a clarification on this matter, it seems to me that an old, un-updated rule is more legit then no rule at all, until it's updated.
Unfortuanlly, as I said before, I didn't find any notes by Skip Williams about specifically a 5-foot step into an occupied square.
I did find out that, in D&D 3.5, Skip Williams said the AoO for moving into an occupied square is indeed the same one for leaving a threatened square, but I didn't get any replies on this find.
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On these forums, 3.5 rulings are considered solid evidence, unless they contradict the poster's existing opinion, in which case they're completely irrelevant to Pathfinder.
On these forums, 3.5 rulings are considered solid evidence, unless they contradict the poster's existing opinion, in which case they're completely irrelevant to Pathfinder.
I usually take them as good unless pathfinder changed something
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On these forums, 3.5 rulings are considered solid evidence, unless they contradict the poster's existing opinion, in which case they're completely irrelevant to Pathfinder.
Upon reading this my main thought was:
Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination
But replace 3.5 rulings with statistics.
I think rulings from 3.5 may give an indication, but are hardly the final word. I think it gives a nudge in the right direction, but would still have the question properly addressed by FAQ, or even a developer simply saying in an unofficial capacity that the ruling generally stands.
Enough has changed between the two version of the game that I consider 3.5 rulings as illumination on the subject but no more.
I did find out that, in D&D 3.5, Skip Williams said the AoO for moving into an occupied square is indeed the same one for leaving a threatened square, but I didn't get any replies on this find.
Do you have a link? Your post above does not lead me to the same conclusion your reached.
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I posted these links back in Here: Post #195
It was previously pointed out in an older thread by DM Blake,Here.
Rules of the Game: Attacks of Opportunity (Part Two) by Skip Williams
If you're a whole lot bigger or smaller than your foe, you can move through and even stop in the foe's space (see Player's Handbook page 148); you also can do so if you're size Fine, Diminutive, or Small. Entering a foe's space normally provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe, but if you use the Tumble skill to enter the space, you don't provoke an attack of opportunity from the foe if you make your skill check.
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Check the actions in combat table. Casting provokes, and making a ranged attack provokes. The only way it wouldn't provoke twice is if the caster cast defensively or had the point blank master feat.Another example of multiple AoOs from the same action: Cast a ranged Touch spell. You provoke once for casting, and once for making a ranged attack.That is actually incorrect as well. An opponent would only get one AoO from that action.
except for that rule that says the same action doesn't provoke twice. He's casting a spell. He doesn't suffer two aoos for it
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Except for the FAQ saying that it does provoke twice:
"Ranged Touch Attack Spells and AOOs: When you cast a spell that allows you to make a ranged touch attack (such as scorching ray), and an enemy is within reach, do you provoke two attacks of opportunity?
Yes, you provoke two attacks of opportunity: one for casting the spell and one for making a ranged attack, since these are two separate events.
(Note that at spell that fires multiple simultaneous rays, such as scorching ray, only provokes one AOO for making the ranged attack instead of one AOO for each ranged attack. It still provokes for casting the spell.)"
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except for that rule that says the same action doesn't provoke twice. He's casting a spell. He doesn't suffer two aoos for it
He does and he always did.
Not the same action. One is casting a spell (provoke) and another is makign a ranged attack (provoke.)
And that's why the question is:
Are making a 5ft step and stepping into some else's square considered two separate actions? Or even better, is moving and stepping into someone else's square considered two separate actions? (Hint the answer must be the same to both questions).
If the answer is yes, then the 5ft step prevents moving into someone else's square from provoking.
If no, then the 5ft step prevents the AoO for the general movement, but the act of moving into someone else's square is a separate and distinct action which would not have the AoO negated.
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If no, then the 5ft step prevents the AoO for the general movement, but the act of moving into someone else's square is a separate and distinct action which would not have the AoO negated.
That is the key rules difference we have in this thread.
Does the 5 ft step "never provoke" and as such prevent you from both the "leaving a threatened square" and "enter an opponent's square" AoO?
I posted these links back in Here: Post #195
It was previously pointed out in an older thread by DM Blake,Here.
Rules of the Game: Attacks of Opportunity (Part Two) by Skip Williams
If you're a whole lot bigger or smaller than your foe, you can move through and even stop in the foe's space (see Player's Handbook page 148); you also can do so if you're size Fine, Diminutive, or Small. Entering a foe's space normally provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe, but if you use the Tumble skill to enter the space, you don't provoke an attack of opportunity from the foe if you make your skill check.
Thank you but... to be fair, that doesn't even almost answer the ultimate question. Here's why.
Imagine a world where we take the rules at face value:
1} we know leaving a threatened square provokes, because it says so
2} we know entering an occupied square provokes, because it says so
Further, we take additional rules at face value:
1} we know Acrobatics can be used to negate this type of AoO
Imagine a world where we take Skip's comments at face value:
2} we now know Acrobatics can be used to negate this type of AoO
See? Skip doesn't say anything about type 1 AoOs. Or if using a 5-ft step can also negate a type 2 AoO.
There's the two general debates going on, regarding 5-ft steps and how many AoOs are involved with entering an occupied space. Skip speaks to neither, really.
What I'm saying is that to a person who reads the existing rules such that there are two separate "triggers" that might provoke two AoOs, Skip's conversation only speaks to the second type. At all. Nowhere does he mention the traditional type, which we all know exists.
All he's done is said is that it's possible to tumble (use Acrobatics) to negate the AoO for entering a square. That doesn't say, or even imply that it is the only AoO involved.
Does a 5-ft step provoke? No. The rules say no. But if you use the 5-ft step to do something unusual, such as entering a creature's square, does that provoke? Maybe.
Without a FAQ being answered, this topic is going nowhere.
I posted these links back in Here: Post #195
It was previously pointed out in an older thread by DM Blake,Here.
Rules of the Game: Attacks of Opportunity (Part Two) by Skip Williams
If you're a whole lot bigger or smaller than your foe, you can move through and even stop in the foe's space (see Player's Handbook page 148); you also can do so if you're size Fine, Diminutive, or Small. Entering a foe's space normally provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe, but if you use the Tumble skill to enter the space, you don't provoke an attack of opportunity from the foe if you make your skill check.
Yeah, I didn't see anything to bring me to the same conclusion as you.
I thought one of the things we were debating is if the AoO for moving into an occupied square is nothing more than the same AoO provoked by leaving a threatened square.
Initially, I thought they were not the same, since even a creature with reach 0 (no threatening area) is entitle to an AoO if somebody moves into their square. A creature with reach 0 simply can't AoO anyone for moving, because these AoO should happen before the creatures have entered the square, beyond the creature's reach. Since even creatures with 0 are entitle to an AoO if someone enters their square, it leads me to conclude that these AoO must be of some different type, one that happens already inside the same square, different from regular AoO for moving out of threatening areas.
Then, Skip confirmed that both AoO, "moving into an occupied square" and "moving out of a threatened square" are the same:
When the little creature enters a space that a foe of Medium size occupies, the gets an attack of opportunity when the Tiny creature leaves the adjacent square to enter the Medium creature’s space, thanks to its 5-foot reach"
Also, Skip says you can tumble to avoid this AoO. Normaly you can't use tumble to avoid just any type of AoO, just AoO from moving out of threatened areas. This also leads me to believe that the AoO for moving into an occupied square is indeed a regular AoO for moving out of a threatened area.
And, I did say that before too, unfortunally Skip didn't mention anything about 5 foot steps in this situation.
Of course, this isn't enough to prove anything RAW, but through these I have come to a better understanding of how I would like this to be ruled in my home games.
Also, I've realized something simple:
Two creatures with the same reach don't provoke AoO from one another when they move close to each other just enough to strike.
Only creatures with greater reach get to AoO others that are trying to move close enough to attack it.
Since in the end nobody really occupies the same space, a Tiny creature moving into the square of a Medium creature to attack is no different from a Medium creature moving close enough to attack a Huge creature, it provoes an AoO, which you may be able to avoid with tumble.
Nothing in the line you quoted mentions that they are the same. I understand how you got to that conclusion, but it is not in any way a sure thing.
Why is the acrobatics DC +5 higher to avoid the AoO for entering compared to just moving through a threatened area? If it's the same AoO, performed in the adjacent square, then why are the DCs different?
I think we don't know if the tumble DC to move into a square is +5. We don't even know if we can use tumble to move into a square. We do know we can use tumble to move around or through a square, and that the DC to move through is +5 hither, probably because you literraly need to pass through the square where there's an enemy on it.
What I'm saying is, the DC +5 to tumble through an enemy square doesn't necessarily means that moving through is the same thing as moving into. It may just mean that moving through is harder than moving around it.
Maybe, if all a Tiny creature wants to do is move into an occupied square just to attack, just like a Medium creature wants to move close enough to a Huge Dragon to attack it, maybe the DC to move into doesn't need the +5.
Do we know for a fact that the 5-foot step property of Never provoking AoO is only related to movement?
Even if it's not, I'm having a hard time picturing another type of AoO that can be triggered simply by taking a 5-foot step action.
Do we know for a fact that the 5-foot step property of Never provoking AoO is only related to movement?
Even if it's not, I'm having a hard time picturing another type of AoO that can be triggered simply by taking a 5-foot step action.
No. But in proper context it is movement, you can use movement, or you can take a 5-foot step. But you can't do both. The 5-foot step then is movement of a special type (the type that does not provoke AoO's).
This example is contrived, but consider the following:
I 5-foot step into a deep pit.
I fall X distance, take some damage, and am prone from a result of taking damage.
At the bottom of the pit is an enemy with vicious stomp.
Does he get an AoO or not?
My condition was a result of me taking a 5' step. I think it would be incorrect to deny the AoO from vicious stomp because of that.
Likewise, if I was bull rushed into the pit. The movement from being bull rushed does not provoke any AoO's, but falling prone at the bottom of the pit still would from a vicious stomp.
Why is the acrobatics DC +5 higher to avoid the AoO for entering compared to just moving through a threatened area? If it's the same AoO, performed in the adjacent square, then why are the DCs different?
That is what the DC is because that is what the rule says. Why is the DC larger when moving at full speed? Is it because its a diffferent type of AOO? Better question, why grasp at straws and make wild guesses instead of working with the rules that are written on the page?
Stop assuming the rules are supported by some sort of internally consistent hidden metasystem, and trust me, they work a lot better.
Why is the acrobatics DC +5 higher to avoid the AoO for entering compared to just moving through a threatened area? If it's the same AoO, performed in the adjacent square, then why are the DCs different?That is what the DC is because that is what the rule says. Why is the DC larger when moving at full speed? Is it because its a diffferent type of AOO? Better question, why grasp at straws and make wild guesses instead of working with the rules that are written on the page?
Stop assuming the rules are supported by some sort of internally consistent hidden metasystem, and trust me, they work a lot better.
Except remember that there are pesky rules that are not written on the page and are only available within the FAQ.
Why is the acrobatics DC +5 higher to avoid the AoO for entering compared to just moving through a threatened area? If it's the same AoO, performed in the adjacent square, then why are the DCs different?
The Rules Lawyers will say "We don't know why the DC is +5, we can only assume why. All we do know is that it is."
Although your reasoning makes sense, it won't be enough to clear this issue, since it's based on a assumption.
Furthermore, I don't think Tumbling through an enemy square has "anything" to do with moving into an enemy square and staying there. Anybody can move Through, and moving into is a special move reserved only to very small creatures.
Just because moving into is different from moving around, it doesn't mean that it is the same as moving through. Moving into may be a different, 3rd type of movement.
Do we know for a fact that the 5-foot step property of Never provoking AoO is only related to movement?
Even if it's not, I'm having a hard time picturing another type of AoO that can be triggered simply by taking a 5-foot step action.
No. But in proper context it is movement, you can use movement, or you can take a 5-foot step. But you can't do both. The 5-foot step then is movement of a special type (the type that does not provoke AoO's).
This example is contrived, but consider the following:
I 5-foot step into a deep pit.
I fall X distance, take some damage, and am prone from a result of taking damage.
At the bottom of the pit is an enemy with vicious stomp.
Does he get an AoO or not?My condition was a result of me taking a 5' step. I think it would be incorrect to deny the AoO from vicious stomp because of that.
Likewise, if I was bull rushed into the pit. The movement from being bull rushed does not provoke any AoO's, but falling prone at the bottom of the pit still would from a vicious stomp.
Another example, imagine there's a monster with a gaze attack that can attack anybody who comes within 5ft of it as an extra AoO. You use a 5-foot step to get adjacent to this moster. The same action, the 5-foot step, should provoke 2 AoO from this moster, one for moving and another thanks to it's special gaze power, but since taking a 5-foot step never provokes an AoO, would that deny both AoO or just the one for movement?
What I'm actually hoping for here is if somebody can find a quote clarifying if the 5-foot step only protect against AoO from movement out of threatened areas.
What I don't agree with is anyone who claims to know definitively otherwise.
Me too.
Another example, imagine there's a monster with a gaze attack that can attack anybody who comes within 5ft of it as an extra AoO. You use a 5-foot step to get adjacent to this moster. The same action, the 5-foot step, should provoke 2 AoO from this moster, one for moving and another thanks to it's special gaze power, but since taking a 5-foot step never provokes an AoO, would that deny both AoO or just the one for movement?Me too.
But that's not the same thing at all. That's like saying Pin Down doesn't work because 5ft steps don't provoke even though Pin Down says they do. It's pretty clear that the gaze attack AoO isn't prevented by a 5-ft step. It's not a movement trigger, it's a proximity trigger.
What I don't agree with is anyone who claims to know definitively otherwise.Me too.
I don't know definitively, but I would bet money that a 5-foot step never provokes (except in the case of abilities that specifically allow you to take an AoO against someone while they're taking a 5-foot step).
It's pretty clear that the gaze attack AoO isn't prevented by a 5-ft step. It's not a movement trigger, it's a proximity trigger.
But isn't that claim just as valid for an in-my-square AoO?
It's pretty clear that the gaze attack AoO isn't prevented by a 5-ft step. It's not a movement trigger, it's a proximity trigger.But isn't that claim just as valid for an in-my-square AoO?
No. The gaze attack trigger is "coming within 5 ft" (this is a made-up example right? I'm not missing something IRT gaze attacks?). How you get within 5 feet is irrelevant, because the trigger isn't intrinsically tied to movement.
The question on hand is much stickier. We know that ENTERING an occupied square provokes an AoO (provided you're either small enough or enough larger/smaller than the opponent). We know LEAVING a threatened square using a 5ft step prevents the normal AoO (feats like Pin Down nonwithstanding). What we don't know is if the 5ft step would prevent the AoO from entering an occupied square. The RAW doesn't really say either way. Which is why I hit FAQ.
It's pretty clear that the gaze attack AoO isn't prevented by a 5-ft step. It's not a movement trigger, it's a proximity trigger.But isn't that claim just as valid for an in-my-square AoO?No. The gaze attack trigger is "coming within 5 ft" (this is a made-up example right? I'm not missing something IRT gaze attacks?). How you get within 5 feet is irrelevant, because the trigger isn't intrinsically tied to movement.
The question on hand is much stickier. We know that ENTERING an occupied square provokes an AoO (provided you're either small enough or enough larger/smaller than the opponent). We know LEAVING a threatened square using a 5ft step prevents the normal AoO (feats like Pin Down nonwithstanding). What we don't know is if the 5ft step would prevent the AoO from entering an occupied square. The RAW doesn't really say either way. Which is why I hit FAQ.
What if I teleport into your square? No move action. No movement (from a provocation standpoint). Do you get an AoO?
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If we are going to say that there are two distinct actions because there are two distinct rules that might apply (to something that is obviously only a single action), then why not take a look at the situation where the mover is not only tiny, but the defender is huge, i.e. at least 3 size categories larger?
Moving out of a threatened square provokes.
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.
Why aren't we talking about the distinct possibility of 3 AoO?
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What if I teleport into your square? No move action. No movement (from a provocation standpoint). Do you get an AoO?It's pretty clear that the gaze attack AoO isn't prevented by a 5-ft step. It's not a movement trigger, it's a proximity trigger.But isn't that claim just as valid for an in-my-square AoO?No. The gaze attack trigger is "coming within 5 ft" (this is a made-up example right? I'm not missing something IRT gaze attacks?). How you get within 5 feet is irrelevant, because the trigger isn't intrinsically tied to movement.
The question on hand is much stickier. We know that ENTERING an occupied square provokes an AoO (provided you're either small enough or enough larger/smaller than the opponent). We know LEAVING a threatened square using a 5ft step prevents the normal AoO (feats like Pin Down nonwithstanding). What we don't know is if the 5ft step would prevent the AoO from entering an occupied square. The RAW doesn't really say either way. Which is why I hit FAQ.
That would depend on the wording of the spell or ability that is allowing you to teleport into an occupied square!
What if I teleport into your square? No move action. No movement (from a provocation standpoint). Do you get an AoO?It's pretty clear that the gaze attack AoO isn't prevented by a 5-ft step. It's not a movement trigger, it's a proximity trigger.But isn't that claim just as valid for an in-my-square AoO?No. The gaze attack trigger is "coming within 5 ft" (this is a made-up example right? I'm not missing something IRT gaze attacks?). How you get within 5 feet is irrelevant, because the trigger isn't intrinsically tied to movement.
The question on hand is much stickier. We know that ENTERING an occupied square provokes an AoO (provided you're either small enough or enough larger/smaller than the opponent). We know LEAVING a threatened square using a 5ft step prevents the normal AoO (feats like Pin Down nonwithstanding). What we don't know is if the 5ft step would prevent the AoO from entering an occupied square. The RAW doesn't really say either way. Which is why I hit FAQ.
Moot point since you cannot teleport into an occupied square.
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Unless its a gelatinous cube, a human in a colossal creatures space is not a solid body: there's more than enough room for both of you (pathfinder, blasphemously, says there's never room for jello)
Well, if you can physically occupy the same square of a Gelatinous Cube, it should not be a problem to teleport into one, it would be the same principle as teleporting into a space full of air, gas, water, lava, a swarm, or anything else that doesn't physically prevents you from sharing that space, different from a stone wall for example, or a body of water with so much salt or sand in it that you wound't even sink on it, you just stand over it.
And Teleporting into any space should not provoke an AoO, I mean how could it? It's instantaneous, and the teleporting action probably happens out of reach, you can't interrupt that, unless you have that feat that allows you to do so after "they" teleport.
Why is the acrobatics DC +5 higher to avoid the AoO for entering compared to just moving through a threatened area? If it's the same AoO, performed in the adjacent square, then why are the DCs different?That is what the DC is because that is what the rule says. Why is the DC larger when moving at full speed? Is it because its a diffferent type of AOO? Better question, why grasp at straws and make wild guesses instead of working with the rules that are written on the page?
Stop assuming the rules are supported by some sort of internally consistent hidden metasystem, and trust me, they work a lot better.
I'm not assuming, I'm asking. The only difference in condition between the two is that one is 'entering' a square, and one is not. That's it. No difference in movement speed, no other straw man that you might care to list.
If this is indeed the only difference, then clearly moving into a square is different with regard to AoOs and the ability to avoid them.
The fact that you don't have a good response to this situation does not make it any less valid. When the rules are vague regarding certain points and situations, it is SOP to look to other related rules to aid in interpretation and avoid inconsistencies in the rule set. That's why people do it.
Or it could be because the creature being in the space makes avoiding the AOO harder, not because it's a different type of AOO. Since five foot steps do not require checks, this is irrelevant.
Or we could stop pretending there's some sort of underlying consistent logic to the system. The rules for acrobatics are the rules for acrobatics, stop grasping at straws.
I can assume one thing, you can assume another. Or neither of us can assume anything becauae it's utterly pointless and leads nowhere. That's why the rules on the page are important above all else. People usually look to unrelated areas of the rules because they don't like what the rules say. The rules are clear here, your point is wrong.