Can you build an effective melee wizard / familar combo?


Advice


So imagine a human wizard 1; they take a Valet archetype familiar. Right off the bat the familiar counts as having all the wizard's Teamwork feats.

Level 1 feats:
Distracting Charge (Wiz 1)
Escape Route (Hum bon)
Scribe Scroll (Wiz bon)

Take a flying familiar and swap its first level feat for Flyby Attack. Now it's making flying Charge attacks (which essentially deal 1 non-lethal if they hit) but if the wizard can get to melee and better yet hold their action until the familiar attacks so they can move into a flank position at just the right moment they'd be attacking at +4 to hit if the familiar hits with its flying charge.

The familiar doesn't need to worry about moving through threatened spaces adjacent to the wizard (Escape Route) so no AoOs. Couple this with both wizard and familiar tanking through high Dex and Mage Armor and you've got a way to compete on the front lines.

What other Teamwork feats would serve this wizard build?


I would think that marauder would be better. Also, I would take the shapeshifter subschool. I would also look into the new weapons in melee toolkit. I am not much for theory crafting, but I have given this idea some thought.


Is there any reason you don't want to make a magus that takes the familiar arcana at level 3?


Are you looking for an "effective melee wizard" or an effective familiar?

The original build posted didn't do much to make the wizard effective. You'd be better off to get a +4 Init Scorpion instead of catering to a fly-by attack for 1 non-lethal damage. Hence, my confusion...


I went with a flyer because it needs to make a Charge attack that hits. I suppose though that Diminutive familiars would do better than Tiny, so the scorpion would be the most effective.

What I'm looking to maximize is the combat use of the wizard and familiar together, as a team. It would take a while but at Wizard 9 for example you could take Outflank. Now the Wizard/Familiar duo are flanking for +4 to attack. Add in Precise Strike and the Transformation spell on the familiar and you've got an interesting melee combatant.

Also I chose Valet as the archetype for the Teammate ability that lets them share Teamwork feats.

Edit: added the familiar combo suggestion in the title of the thread.

Sczarni

First thing that came to my mind would be Transmuter of some sort. Transmutation spells have most omph in this case. Playing maybe a Transmuter with regular buff spells like Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance might push you through first levels, but I am unsure about mid and late game levels.

Adam

Sczarni

Mark Hoover wrote:


What I'm looking to maximize is the combat use of the wizard and familiar together, as a team.

This is very hard, simply because familiar cannot take feats. Best familiar duo combo would be beast*something* witch archetype if I recall right.

Dark Archive

Dex and Mage Armor will get you about 17 AC at best,16 if you're on a point buy, and that number's going to stay that way for a long time. The Shield spell is an option' but that's spending time buffing when you could be attacking or casting more traditioal wizard spells.

The familiar doesn't have anything approaching the health to be anywhere near melee combat. It's nonexistant damage means nothing will target it, but that first time you eat a Burning Hands to the face might very well kill it outright. Or a Lightning Bolt. Or a negative energy Channel. You get the idea.

If you want to melee wizard, I strongly suggest a bonded weapon, preferably a nice 2handed martial weapon and the proficiency feat to go with it. Masterwork for free at 1st level compensates for the lack of BAB and the discounted magic upgrading will serve you well over your career.

If you want to play an arcane caster with a combat buddy, I strongly suggest Summoner. Your pet gets feats that you can share, you get decent BAB, HP and longspear proficiency, and you're leas likely to end up a red smear thanks to an unlucky enemy crit.


IF you want Wizard, not magus, not summoner, I'd suggest grabbing a Mauler Familiar with the familiar archetypes, and choosing a creature like Fox, Goat, or other strong for it's size familiar.
I'd say go Transmuter, and spend some of your feats as you level on Familiar enhancement, such as Evolved Familiar (to give it claws, or something else, for example), Mauler's Endurance for possible more hp then you yourself have, and Spirit's Gift, to regularly change up it's abilities. My favorites for low levels are Life for Fast healing 1, and Stone for DR 5/ Adamantine.

After that, use your transmuter powers as you level to stay relevent, and use whatever means of protecting yourself that you can. Even summoning minor monsters to use Aid Another can help your AC or Attk.

Your call on if you want to go Str based, or Dex based; Since you have a Str familiar, Dex may go a long way to keeping you alive.


Mark Hoover wrote:
What I'm looking to maximize is the combat use of the wizard and familiar together, as a team.

I'd recommend focusing on polymorph spells for this.

S: 17 D: 14 C: 14 I: 14 W: 8 Ch: 10 (20pt human)

Transmuter Wizard - adds bonuses to physical stats, so 18 STR at level 1

Feats:
Toughness (1st) - pump up your hitpoints and thus the familiar's too
Improved Familiar (5th) - small elemental for a 16 STR

1st:
Mage Armor (1 hour / level)
Shield (1st round of combat)

3rd:
Mage Armor (1 hour / level)
Alter Self (1st round of combat)

5th:
Mage Armor (1 hour / level)
False Life (1 hour / level) - give hitpoints to the familiar
Heroism (10 minutes / level) - +2 to hit keeps you more relevant
Monstrous Physique I (1st round of combat)

etc.

At 3rd level, you are able to turn your tiny familiar into a trogolodyte with 3 attacks. It won't do much damage due to low strength still.

At 5th level, you are able to turn your small earth elemental into an 18 STR gargoyle with 4 attacks [2 claws +6 (1d6+4), bite +6 (1d4+4), gore +6 (1d4+4)].

At 9th level, you and your familiar can both be overland flying giant octopi with 9 attacks each, not including haste. Imagine that? That would be a scary sight to see coming!


What is "Mauler's Endurance?"


Mauler's Endurance

This and the Spirit Binder archetype may be a must (give your familiar full BAB), but I'm not sure how you'd get your wizard to fighting strength unless you can somehow get the familiar to scale with your caster level and go into Eldritch Knight.

Half BAB is no bueno, I'd probably just do ranged support and buffing while the mauler lays down the law in melee.


177cheese wrote:
Half BAB is no bueno, I'd probably just do ranged support and buffing while the mauler lays down the law in melee.

Based off the above build I posted. I'll show the relative nature of the melee wizard in melee.

1st level:
+4 to hit (+4 STR)
quarterstaff 1d6+6 damage (+6 STR)

3rd level: Alter Self 1st Round into a trogolodyte
+6 to hit (+1 BAB +5 STR)
bite 1d4+5 (+5 STR)
claw 1d4+5 (+5 STR)
claw 1d4+5 (+5 STR)

5th level: Monstrous Physique I 1st Round into a gargoyle
+9 to hit (+2 BAB +6 STR +1 AOMF)
bite 1d4+7 (+6 STR +1 AOMF)
gore 1d4+7 (+6 STR +1 AOMF)
claw 1d6+7 (+6 STR +1 AOMF)
claw 1d6+7 (+6 STR +1 AOMF)

7th level: Monstrous Physique II 1st Round into a grendel
+12 to hit (+3 BAB +7 STR +1 AOMF -1 Size +2 Heroism)
bite 4d8+8 (+7 STR +1 AOMF)
claw 3d10+8 (+7 STR +1 AOMF)
claw 3d10+8 (+7 STR +1 AOMF)

etc.

Defenses are gained via long duration buufs:

Mage Armor (hour per level)
False Life (hour per level)
Ablative Barrier (hour per level)
Stoneskin (10 minutes per level)

Add in Boots of Speed, Flanking, Weapon Focus Claws, Greater Invisibility, etc. for more to hit if you need.

Add in Power Attack for more damage if you need.


Mark Hoover wrote:
swap its first level feat for Flyby Attack.

Is that permitted? I thought only specific "Familiar feats" could be used in such a way.


Rory wrote:
177cheese wrote:
Half BAB is no bueno, I'd probably just do ranged support and buffing while the mauler lays down the law in melee.

Based off the above build I posted. I'll show the relative nature of the melee wizard in melee.

1st level:
+4 to hit (+4 STR)
quarterstaff 1d6+6 damage (+6 STR)

3rd level: Alter Self 1st Round into a trogolodyte
+6 to hit (+1 BAB +5 STR)
bite 1d4+5 (+5 STR)
claw 1d4+5 (+5 STR)
claw 1d4+5 (+5 STR)

5th level: Monstrous Physique I 1st Round into a gargoyle
+9 to hit (+2 BAB +6 STR +1 AOMF)
bite 1d4+7 (+6 STR +1 AOMF)
gore 1d4+7 (+6 STR +1 AOMF)
claw 1d6+7 (+6 STR +1 AOMF)
claw 1d6+7 (+6 STR +1 AOMF)

7th level: Monstrous Physique II 1st Round into a grendel
+12 to hit (+3 BAB +7 STR +1 AOMF -1 Size +2 Heroism)
bite 4d8+8 (+7 STR +1 AOMF)
claw 3d10+8 (+7 STR +1 AOMF)
claw 3d10+8 (+7 STR +1 AOMF)

etc.

Defenses are gained via long duration buufs:

Mage Armor (hour per level)
False Life (hour per level)
Ablative Barrier (hour per level)
Stoneskin (10 minutes per level)

Add in Boots of Speed, Flanking, Weapon Focus Claws, Greater Invisibility, etc. for more to hit if you need.

Add in Power Attack for more damage if you need.

That looks surprisingly good. Maybe even go with Improved Shared Spells for double the monstrosity.


177cheese wrote:
That looks surprisingly good. Maybe even go with Improved Shared Spells for double the monstrosity.

That is a most excellent feat to get for this type of build, I agree.


Another couple of feats I looked at for the familiar were Familiar Focus or Spell Sponge. Focus means that every non-harmful spell that targets my familiar is cast at +1CL while spell sponge doubles the effects of spells with a range of "You" cast on the familiar through Share Spells.

I think if I took Imp Shared Spells I'd go with Familiar Focus. This means I take Mage Armor, cast it on my familiar at 1st level and it's cast as a 2nd level spell (2 hr duration) which is then halved between us, so we both get 1hr of Mage Armor for the casting of a single spell. If I'm doing that wrong please correct me.


Mark Hoover wrote:
I think if I took Imp Shared Spells I'd go with Familiar Focus. This means I take Mage Armor, cast it on my familiar at 1st level and it's cast as a 2nd level spell (2 hr duration) which is then halved between us, so we both get 1hr of Mage Armor for the casting of a single spell. If I'm doing that wrong please correct me.

Improved Shared Spells requires 10 spell ranks, which means it isn't allowed at 1st, alas.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You might be able to build your wizard into a suboptimal martial at low levels, but the disparity will simply grow as you progress.


LazarX wrote:
You might be able to build your wizard into a suboptimal martial at low levels, but the disparity will simply grow as you progress.

At what level does this occur?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

the kind of build you want for this depends on what levels you're playing at too... at low levels the high Str melee focused Wiz is viable but (as Lazar said) he'll fall behind fairly quickly, at higher levels any wizard can be effective in melee by simply stacking their best/favorite polymorph with transformation... starting at 11th level any wizard with improved share spells can turn themselves and their familiar into able combatants in a round or two...


IMO, I would not pump Str at all. Pump Con so your Familiar has somewhat respectable HP.

Have you consider what race you would like for this? I think I would recommend Gnome for the Con increase and small size bonus to make you hit easier.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rory wrote:
LazarX wrote:
You might be able to build your wizard into a suboptimal martial at low levels, but the disparity will simply grow as you progress.
At what level does this occur?

Really... at about 2 and higher. Depending on what you set your bar for "effective" at. What are your standards for comparison? How are you building your stats for such a character? How many rounds are you going to spend buffing yourself before you get into melee in each fight? Are you putting yourself in front line? What are you going to fight with? If you go elf at least you have a break in getting some useful weapon proficiencies for free, but at the cost of a hit to your Con score.

Also keep in mind that if you're going to frontline... the enemies will be hitting back. What's your counter strategy going to be, AC or Hit avoidance? Either approach is going to take up spell slots.

And while it's easy to throw in expensive magic items, or feats and tricks gained at high level, you've got to survive to get there from first.


LazarX wrote:
Really... at about 2 and higher. Depending on what you set your bar for "effective" at. What are your standards for comparison? How are you building your stats for such a character? How many rounds are you going to spend buffing yourself before you get into melee in each fight?

Did you look at the posted example build? You might have missed it.

Stats were shown. Only two feats were assumed. The only item assumed was a +1 AOMF, besides a simple "free" quarterstaff.

The build assumed buffing on the first round only. However, since every combat buff used is a minutes per level buff, there might be a pre-buff potential as well as a multiple combat potential.

Defenses are long lasting buff spells. Naturally, they use spell slots. Using 1 spell per combat means lots of spells leftover for defenses. AC, temp hitpoints, damage reduction buffs were listed. The Monstrous Physique II spells also give AC.


There is just something charming about a wizard hulking out and smashing people.

Even if he's not optimal, I think he looks good enough to have some fun with.


Maybe an Eldritch Knight build would do this well?

Two levels in Eldritch Guardian will net your familiar all your combat feats. Five levels in Wizard of some type then at 8th prestige into EK. You would either have to deal with the familiar not getting more powers past 7th, but you would have a much better BAB and HP to share. You still get 9th level spells at 20th even if you do lose 3 caster levels getting better at fighting.


How do you keep the familiar's Attack bonus competitive with monsters of a comparable level?


Mark Hoover wrote:
How do you keep the familiar's Attack bonus competitive with monsters of a comparable level?

Read the first ability of this wizard archetype .

That with the mauler archetype should help.


I'm pretty sure you just straight can't make the Pathfinder Wizard a good melee character. The Spirit Binder archetype cheese linked is really good though, and can potentially make the familiar a more potent combatant than an animal companion. Say your bound relative was a Paladin and now your mauler crab familiar has full BAB and the best saves in the game.


So a comp. familiar by level 5 would have Medium size, Str 16 before buffing and a Bite attack. His bite would be 1d6 +4 and carries a weak poison. I take the feats Toughness, Extend Spell and Mounted Combat as a Halfling. I could have him take Weapon Focus: Natural Attack and Spell Sponge, then target him with Mage Armor and False Life for pretty much all day. My combat friend/mount would then have (before items/other buffs)

AC 19
HP 20 (+1d10 +5)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
BAB +5
Melee bite +8 (1d6+4 plus Poison)

He'd still need (to be competitive) better defense, more Str increase and perhaps even better damage. I can still share spells but I lose all the damage potential of having him deliver Full Attack bite + Touch Attack damage so I might want to swap Extend Spell for Evolved Familiar to increase the damage die of his bite or give him claws or a tail slam. Then my character still needs to contribute.

Actually now that I think about it if my guy is mounted on the familiar then I could either be adding Aid Another to his attacks with a club in melee or I change the Evolved Familiar evolution to giving the familiar Reach with its bite and casting spells from it's back. If I swap Mounted Combat for Arcane Strike, give the comp reach and we attack as one, my scorching ray could be attacking for 4d6+2 damage while the familiar delivers an additional 1d6+4 (avg damage of 23.5/round). I could also spam Acid Splash all day in that situation for 1d3+2.

Grand Lodge

If you're taking it for the Familiar, Mauler's Endurance is better HP than Toughness.

I would consider:
- Evolved Familiar instead of Extend Spell.
- You can swap out the Familiar's base feat for Spell Sponge, so you've got a second Spirit Binder feat.
- Weapon Focus feels like a waste. Maybe Combat Reflexes with Evolved Familiar? Power Attack is a classic. Bodyguard could be useful if you find yourself getting attacked instead.
- Shield Companion (the level 1 version from Animal Archive) will let you split damage with your buddy, increasing longevity.
- You want to shoot for a Belt of Mighty Strength and/or Amulet of Mighty Fists. AoMF(Spell Storing) for 4k has a lot of potential for some Wizard build, saving casting actions.


Shield Companion + Ring of Friend Shield + 2x Ablative Barrier will go a long way towards survivability of both you and your familiar.


If you really want your 1/2-BAB caster to be hitting things, have you considered a Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist? You would be relying entirely on natural attacks while beast-shaped, which might help make up for the poor to-hit chance. The problem with this is that you can't cast spells while beast shaped, of course.

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