Not *exactly* a murder-hobo. RotR help request.


Rise of the Runelords


Okay so I am playing in a Rise of the Runelords Anniversary edition game with a bunch of my friends. Everyone else is playing good characters, except for me.

I'm playing a Lawful Evil Vivisectionist-Humunculist Alchemist. I have a Swamp Viper type humunculist with the Decoy template from the Familiar Folio. I portray myself as but a Doctor and in fact carry a medical license from the Chelliax Medical Board, alongside carrying a side bag, long white exterior coat, and masterwork scalpels.

I'm the group's healer, Which is fun. I'm also a serial killer and have been managing to not be found out so far, though we haven't even gotten to the glassworks part of the first book. Just to be clear I'm not being stupid about it; there's only been one victim thus far but even with the scene being examined never pointed suspicion at me (Though Sheriff Hemlock actually asked me to look over the body to confirm the scene.)

Now this has been really fun for the whole group, because the players, well, KNOW my character's evil as hell, but their players have only had their opinions that I'm a helpful and upstanding member of Sandpoint reinforced on several occasions. Also there's a paladin in the party, but I've managed to not ever be in her line of sight while she's doing her 'detect evil' thing, purely by happenstance. Once I get to higher level my Decoy will start being useful versus that.

Okay so what I would appreciate help with (Other than some fun discussion about playing a lone evil character in a group of good ones AND a paladin) is... I need targets for later on in the game. I've been very careful in how I pick targets, but I would love some ideas of what 'opportunities' the Adventure Path will provide an enterprising manslayer later on.

It's a weird request, sure. But basically have you found any 'easy targets' during your play of the AP? Or did you come across any moments where you could 'choose' to save an NPC or not?


So you want to be a serial killer, but don't want to do any of the legwork or risk trying to murder a vital quest NPC/dragon in disguise/super high level guy? That sounds like you don't really want to be a serial killer.

I don't know what compels your character to murder people, but yes, the AP provides a decent number of NPCs, several of which you could probably murder.


That's asking for a lot of spoilers.

I would suggest, were I in your shoes, your character should have to figure this out for himself. This isn't a build thread (those are bad enough, planning your 19th level feat while you're still generating your level 1 character). It's worse. You're actually looking for a list of killable NPC targets that you (your character) will somehow automtically know about, even though you/he has never been to those locations and met those characters.

Aside from sounding like getting spoilers (most GMs would consider that "cheating"), it also seems like it takes the whole fun out of being a serial killer. What's the point, saying "I stick my knife in random NPC #37's heart"? Or is the point doing your legwork, selecting your target, culling him from the herd, stalking him, finding the perfect moment, committing the perfect crime, leaving no evidence, etc.?


I would ask the GM. Every campaign is different, and a death that would be fine in one game could mean disaster for the whole game in another.


If you torture the Paladin maybe you could turn him into an Anti-Paladin. Of course that's a terrible idea, but playing a serial killer in a heroic campaign probably is too. That said, it is fun to think about...

As far as being a serial killer goes, you might want to concentrate on lowly NPCs such as prostitutes and beggars, the sort of folks who real serial killers tend to kill. I guess you could also have your PC get married and poison off the spouse, another common method used by serial killers. Bemoaning the loss of your beloved Cassilda when the other players know you murdered her to inherit her house/general store/country inn/etc for use as a party base.

Maybe her daughter Lolita who supposedly went mad with grief and jumped in the river or ironically got run over by the undertaker's wagon is really being held prisoner in a soundproof basement where you perform experiments in an attempt to make her your "masterpiece". When the Paladin finally finds out it might make for quite a roleplaying scene.

Adopting a masked or otherwise disguised murder persona might make it easier to make secret deals with people like gravediggers so you could do things like use paralytic poison on peasants so that they appear dead and then come to dig them up later (perhaps since the gravedigger agreed to give you the "corpse" to use "for science" - maybe you get him addicted to some "special" alchemical hooch so he's more likely to tell himself your cover story is true, pray that your cover story is true until he sees proof of your subterfuge and dies in a grisly manner)


Well, I'm just gonna say right now: You'll have a hard time in book two. There is no reason for the party not to turn on you by then, if you don't prove to them that you're a true friend.


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Devilkiller wrote:
playing a serial killer in a heroic campaign probably is a terrible idea.

That sums it right up.

First, I hope every player in this game is aware of your character's, uh, bad judgment. I hope you got every player to agree to this in advance. Because if you didn't, this will be a BIG problem later in this campaign.

Second, I hope everyone is ready to side-track the campaign for your special proclivities. These kinds of fun little solo side-quests will leave the other players twiddling their thumbs while your serial killer does his thing. Even if you only do it occasionally, I'm sure it will get irritating for the other players to sit on the sidelines and watch your little Dexter show.

Third, I hope you're ready to roll up a new character. RotL is bad enough with just the bad guys trying to kill you - getting the good guys to hunt you down would make it impossible. And, of course, when the other characters find out about you, and they will, there is no way this character remains happy and healthy and in good standing with the rest of the PCs.

If all the above is true, then have a merry-mayhem time. Kill as many people in Sandpoint as you can, because where you're going in book 2 is going to put your extracurricular activities on a very big stage - a stage that has an audience of many high-level NPCs who will hunt you down, magically, and exact some vigilante justice on the spot.


It may depend on just what the target of your serial killing is. Dexter offers the obvious route of only killing people you would probably want dead anyway. So for example, if you are a serial killer that only focuses on corrupt officials, then even if your teammates discover your "hobby", they may still be able to justify your actions. With a slap on the wrist and a "Stop that!".


If you and your fellow players and your GM are all having fun, then I see no problems.

I would ask the GM for potential targets before asking people on these boards, unless you're looking for spoilers.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I don't let the other PCs know generally what i'm doing or what is written on my sheet, so iuno, does't seem as fun to me.

Grand Lodge

Murder a Guy named

Spoiler:
Foxglove...you have met him and will save yourself a ton of trouble to off him now.

Or make sure you spend your night snooping around the Lumbermill once book 2 starts.

Another good person to off would be the groups paladin.

Honestly what type of serial killer does make a difference. Some serial killers picked their victims by circumstances that develop in the moment. Like ted bundy would go to beaches and pick up woman and kill them after he gets them alone. And other serial killers know their victims. But those are the ones who get caught quicker because you have something that ties you to that person.

All in all...kill a few NPCs but you're probably better off being discovered and getting killed and rerolling because it is going to be hard to play a serial killer and also be the savior of the world.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:


Another good person to off would be the groups paladin.

that's not a person

Grand Lodge

Why? Maybe you got bored of his self-righteousness and wanted to see if MR. holier than thou bleeds like other moral men.


Uhh.
He's a Paladin. He's already a moral man.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:
Why? Maybe you got bored of his self-righteousness and wanted to see if MR. holier than thou bleeds like moral men.

oh god my brain... i read it as groups of paladins. lol (USE APOSTROPHES)


Thanks for the feedback!

I admit it, the character is well known by all players and everyone has been having fun with it. I dont know what happens in book 2 but it was agreed upon that he would be leaving the group at some point. so if something happens then that would be fine. I have a backup character in mind for then.

Most of my criminal activities so far have been limited to indesirables, and in between game sessions via private communication with the DM, so to not cause problems with the groups play time.

Again, thanks. This character was built to be a cameo for an entirely different game that happens years after this one.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
rungok wrote:

Thanks for the feedback!

I admit it, the character is well known by all players and everyone has been having fun with it. I dont know what happens in book 2 but it was agreed upon that he would be leaving the group at some point. so if something happens then that would be fine. I have a backup character in mind for then.

Most of my criminal activities so far have been limited to indesirables, and in between game sessions via private communication with the DM, so to not cause problems with the groups play time.

Again, thanks. This character was built to be a cameo for an entirely different game that happens years after this one.

if you don't mind a spoiler (potentially major)

Spoiler:
counter serial killer


I cannot imagine why any DM would allow this at his table. I know I certainly wouldn't.


Okay. I'm going to approach this from the viewpoint of a writer who actually has read up on serial killers.

Serial killers don't need to kill daily. Some only kill on specific occasions, like certain days of the year or the like. You could even look at this as almost religious.

Next, serial killers tend to have favored targets. While women often end up the victim, gay men have also been targeted, prostitutes have on more than one occasion, criminals, clergy, and so forth. Craft a type of target and remain true to that. Seeing you've already had one death... consider the factors behind that murder and see if you can create a "type" that your character kills.

Finally, do be prepared to roll up a new character. I know I tend to go with "consequences" in my game (and really ignore alignment and instead just make sure when someone does something, it can and will bite them in the behind). Hopefully your GM will do the same, which will make things more challenging and interesting for you.


Hahaha!

Is this the first time someone has asked for a list of marks so he can go on a murder spree, now i've seen... more than I saw before :-)

This ain't Golarion Seven... Well most of it... some of it isn't... listen, you're supposed to be Brad Pitt okay :-)

Honestly if you can't figure out who to murder on your own then why be one, camp value? I'm certainly not doing your leg work for you :-)


captain yesterday wrote:


This ain't Golarion Seven... Well most of it... some of it isn't... listen, you're supposed to be Brad Pitt okay :-)

good idea, actually. OP, try to find victims that fit the criteria of one of the 7 sins, like - let's say - greed. kill only people you think are greedy. your GM and yourself can thank me later


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So....strong opinions follow. This isn't a personal attack, just strong opinions about your choices as a player and your DM's choices as lead storyteller.

I have to say that this is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen shared on the boards. Really. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish as a player or as a member of your gaming community, but I think you should think hard about your choices.

First, I do actually believe that except in rare circumstances, role-playing a 'serial killer' over time and spending part of your gaming imagination thinking about identifying good NPCs you can 'hunt' as 'easy targets' is questionable.

I know that conversations of this kind -- about morality and values in gaming -- are often really ugly on the Paizo boards, but I want to raise it...gently...as something you should ponder.

Bluntly, the answer to your question is pretty simple:

Runelords is full of good, innocent and largely defenseless NPCs that you can murder if you think that's a fun thing to do. 'Easy targets' are everywhere. The only drama to that activity is the drama of your very high risk of getting caught and blowing up your party.

Which brings me to my second point. I think you should think about the fact that you (and the DM who allowed you to make run this PC) are endangering an entire campaign and the shared story-telling experience of a group of players.

At our table, we long ago banned 'rogue' players - by which I don't mean the rogue class, but players who want to run PCs who are fundamentally at odds with the nature of the story and the motivations of the party as a whole.

Having a maverick PC with some color or textures that are outliers - that's fine. But the Runelords story involves a long, desperate quest to stop precisely the kind of psychopathic villains that you are attempting portray.

I've seen so many fun campaigns implode over entirely unnecessary choices like this. After weeks (or months) of gaming, suddenly the party feels called upon to kill one of the PCs, or banish a PC, or take some similar action. The spirit of that player-on-player conflict inevitably spills over to the players themselves.

And boom, you're done.

And really...why? Why not trust your DM and your other players and the writing of the adventure to give you a good, compelling experience? Why put a bomb under the whole affair and light the fuse?

Why not put your obviously cool imagination to the task of creating a complex, weirdly motivated PC who actually serves (rather than threatens) the campaign and its narrative arc?

So...there's my suggestion.

Rather than putting your imagination to work trying to sort out who you can kill on the margins of the story, I would try to find ways that you can commit to building and enhancing the story itself.

That means ret-conning your PC and getting with the spirit of the story that your fellow gamers are acting out. And then, when the moment is right, see if they're interested in running an evil-PC campaign.

Let me say, finally, that I get that Cheliax is a cool setting and it offers some fun, morally ambiguous flavor for GMs and PCs to work with. I don't think all PCs need to be paladins or motivated by 'good.'

There are even some campaigns (Crimson Throne, for example) where taking the Cheliax flavor to the extremes you're talking about might make some sense.

In Runelords, though, your PC is a ticking time-bomb that has huge potential to blow up a campaign and (again, I've seen this happen...) an entire gaming group.

-Marsh


Actually, all this referred to by people about book 2...

Spoiler:

I mean, he could actually become a friend and ally of that same NPC

may actually not be such a big problem, it would depend on how easily the GM let's things flow and lets things go off the rails and do your own thing in regards to the plot and metaplot. If they allow Players to actually effect the story in major ways that are way outside the normal parameters of the AP, this may actually be a good or great thing, may even be particularly interesting!

Just depends on the GM.


Captain Marsh wrote:

So....strong opinions follow. This isn't a personal attack, just strong opinions about your choices as a player and your DM's choices as lead storyteller.

I have to say that this is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen shared on the boards. Really. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish as a player or as a member of your gaming community, but I think you should think hard about your choices.

First, I do actually believe that except in rare circumstances, role-playing a 'serial killer' over time and spending part of your gaming imagination thinking about identifying good NPCs you can 'hunt' as 'easy targets' is questionable.

I know that conversations of this kind -- about morality and values in gaming -- are often really ugly on the Paizo boards, but I want to raise it...gently...as something you should ponder.

Bluntly, the answer to your question is pretty simple:

Runelords is full of good, innocent and largely defenseless NPCs that you can murder if you think that's a fun thing to do. 'Easy targets' are everywhere. The only drama to that activity is the drama of your very high risk of getting caught and blowing up your party.

Which brings me to my second point. I think you should think about the fact that you (and the DM who allowed you to make run this PC) are endangering an entire campaign and the shared story-telling experience of a group of players.

At our table, we long ago banned 'rogue' players - by which I don't mean the rogue class, but players who want to run PCs who are fundamentally at odds with the nature of the story and the motivations of the party as a whole.

Having a maverick PC with some color or textures that are outliers - that's fine. But the Runelords story involves a long, desperate quest to stop precisely the kind of psychopathic villains that you are attempting portray.

I've seen so many fun campaigns implode over entirely unnecessary choices like this. After weeks (or months) of gaming, suddenly the party feels called upon to kill...

Can we add this reply to the Hall of Awesome? The OP is playing an evil serial killer in a party of good characters that includes a paladin that through some inexplicable miracle has never detected evil in the "direction" of the evil character. Since it's a power s/he can use at will, the paladin almost certainly does it frequently, bordering on reflexively throughout the day especially in dangerous areas. Paladins that don't soon become dead paladins. It's simply cheating to assert the evil character could hide from a paladin within his own party (at least at this character level.) And the only purpose appears to be a sheer sense of gleeful perversity which everyone in the group is apparently okay with.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Hey, you kids! Get off my lawn!


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Um... why should a Paladin be constantly using Detect Evil?

For that matter, while the character is a Serial Killer, the amount of evil from the character should not be huge, as the character is an Alchemist, not a Priest. Now, an evil cleric would be radiating evil. This person is not the same threat level as an evil cleric of the same level.

If the player has his character remain behind the Paladin (which makes sense, an Alchemist is a squishy character compared to a warrior or priest) then it is entirely probable that the character has lucked out.

Even if the character is detected... what then? The Paladin has reason to be somewhat suspicious. Being Evil is not a crime. It is what you do with that Evil that is. Hell, it is entirely Lawful in Cheliax to own slaves. The character admits to being from Cheliax. And if asked could even admit "yeah, I owned a slave. Transferred it to my family before I left for Varisia because slavery isn't allowed up here."

After that, a good roleplayer would have his or her Paladin try to "save" the evil character by pointing out the benefits of being Good. He'd warn of worshiping a "God" that rules Hell, and how the character risks damnation. The best Paladins don't kill evil everywhere. They try to save it.

This character in all likelihood can't be saved... but the Paladin wouldn't know that. Perhaps after finding him over a dead body... at which point the Paladin would either kill or capture him and have him put on trial.

That said, I still think playing a serial killer isn't a good idea.


My friend and I had fun making fun of this... contemplating a serial killer that targets goblins.

"Yeah, he goes out, strings up goblins by their intestines... does it every other week. We'd do something but hey, it's just damn geebas. Still, we keep an eye on him in case he decides the geebas are too boring."

"We'd raise a bigger fuss, but who cares about goblins anyway? Admittedly, we get fewer low-level adventuring parties through here now, and that's meant a hit for local business, but it's a lot more peaceful around here, and we can focus on selling higher-level magic gear.

"You know the kicker? A dozen of the damn geebas showed up to complain! Said he was a menace and they just wanted to be left alone! Caught one stealing a chicken and we filled the lot of them with arrows."

"The gall of those things is just amazing, isn't it?"


Tangent101 wrote:

Okay. I'm going to approach this from the viewpoint of a writer who actually has read up on serial killers.

Serial killers don't need to kill daily. Some only kill on specific occasions, like certain days of the year or the like. You could even look at this as almost religious.

Next, serial killers tend to have favored targets. While women often end up the victim, gay men have also been targeted, prostitutes have on more than one occasion, criminals, clergy, and so forth. Craft a type of target and remain true to that. Seeing you've already had one death... consider the factors behind that murder and see if you can create a "type" that your character kills.

Finally, do be prepared to roll up a new character. I know I tend to go with "consequences" in my game (and really ignore alignment and instead just make sure when someone does something, it can and will bite them in the behind). Hopefully your GM will do the same, which will make things more challenging and interesting for you.

OOh, strong point here: Zyphus.

Zyphus's worshippers actually have a holiday in which they target a pharasan priest. Being a god of death, and one of accidental and needless death, this is a possible hook for you.


Tangent101 wrote:

Um... why should a Paladin be constantly using Detect Evil?

For that matter, while the character is a Serial Killer, the amount of evil from the character should not be huge, as the character is an Alchemist, not a Priest. Now, an evil cleric would be radiating evil. This person is not the same threat level as an evil cleric of the same level.

If the player has his character remain behind the Paladin (which makes sense, an Alchemist is a squishy character compared to a warrior or priest) then it is entirely probable that the character has lucked out.

Even if the character is detected... what then? The Paladin has reason to be somewhat suspicious. Being Evil is not a crime. It is what you do with that Evil that is. Hell, it is entirely Lawful in Cheliax to own slaves. The character admits to being from Cheliax. And if asked could even admit "yeah, I owned a slave. Transferred it to my family before I left for Varisia because slavery isn't allowed up here."

After that, a good roleplayer would have his or her Paladin try to "save" the evil character by pointing out the benefits of being Good. He'd warn of worshiping a "God" that rules Hell, and how the character risks damnation. The best Paladins don't kill evil everywhere. They try to save it.

This character in all likelihood can't be saved... but the Paladin wouldn't know that. Perhaps after finding him over a dead body... at which point the Paladin would either kill or capture him and have him put on trial.

That said, I still think playing a serial killer isn't a good idea.

Oh my. I've turned this into a paladin thread. Bad Latrecis!

But I can't help myself.

I didn't say a paladin should constantly Detect Evil, but that s/he should frequently do so. And even in normal situations. Why? Because evil is insidious. Because Evil is a real thing in Golarion that has explicit and awful consequences. Because most people don't start out as evil but fall to it. Because Evil burns churches, kills 2 dozen innocent people, performs mortal sacrifices, creates undead and seeks to unleash unspeakable awful that's been entombed for 10000 years. Because the paladin is specifically empowered to be the first line of defense against these catastrophes and Detect Evil is the mechanism to find them.

Is Detect Evil a 007-style license to kill? No (though pending the paladin's diety I could make an argument...) But just because the paladin doesn't immediately launch an attack doesn't mean knowing a character is Evil isn't a tremendous boon to the Paladin's goals.

Who said being Evil isn't a crime? If you're alignment is Evil, you favor Evil behaviors and actions, you are a willing participant or servant to Evil powers and you probably have already done something Evil - perhaps multiple times.

Oh and the Paladin is explicitly tasked to avoid Evil companions. RAW: ""...a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil." My opinion only but only the very end of Book 1 might even begin to qualify as such a structure.

Of course this is mostly pointless since if I follow the OP, the pc in question is very low level and you need 5HD to detect as evil if you are not undead, an outsider or a cleric (which do not seem to apply.) So the Paladin can't yet KNOW he's evil unless he catches him "in the act."

Which the OP and group probably already knew, so never mind.


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I can't wait until they figure out why that guy is always standing behind the Paladin:-D


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Latrecis wrote:
Tangent101 wrote:

Um... why should a Paladin be constantly using Detect Evil?

For that matter, while the character is a Serial Killer, the amount of evil from the character should not be huge, as the character is an Alchemist, not a Priest. Now, an evil cleric would be radiating evil. This person is not the same threat level as an evil cleric of the same level.

If the player has his character remain behind the Paladin (which makes sense, an Alchemist is a squishy character compared to a warrior or priest) then it is entirely probable that the character has lucked out.

Even if the character is detected... what then? The Paladin has reason to be somewhat suspicious. Being Evil is not a crime. It is what you do with that Evil that is. Hell, it is entirely Lawful in Cheliax to own slaves. The character admits to being from Cheliax. And if asked could even admit "yeah, I owned a slave. Transferred it to my family before I left for Varisia because slavery isn't allowed up here."

After that, a good roleplayer would have his or her Paladin try to "save" the evil character by pointing out the benefits of being Good. He'd warn of worshiping a "God" that rules Hell, and how the character risks damnation. The best Paladins don't kill evil everywhere. They try to save it.

This character in all likelihood can't be saved... but the Paladin wouldn't know that. Perhaps after finding him over a dead body... at which point the Paladin would either kill or capture him and have him put on trial.

That said, I still think playing a serial killer isn't a good idea.

Oh my. I've turned this into a paladin thread. Bad Latrecis!

But I can't help myself.

I didn't say a paladin should constantly Detect Evil, but that s/he should frequently do so. And even in normal situations. Why? Because evil is insidious. Because Evil is a real thing in Golarion that has explicit and awful consequences. Because most people don't start out as evil but fall to it. Because Evil burns churches, kills 2 dozen...

ok, I feel the need to point out that the paladin ability doesn't work that way.

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
So, as long as the paladin isn't paranoid, and as long as the character never gives the paladin a reason to suspect his true alignment, he should be fine.


Thank you.

You have to understand. There are a number of us who are Old School Gamers, who came in from AD&D 1st and 2nd Edition. Back then, Paladins could do a "sweep" and detect a group of people and pick out the Evil Individuals.

That said, Latrecis does have a valid point. Paladins do have a duty to avoid adventuring with evil people. As such, you could rightfully state a Paladin needs to cast Detect Evil on his fellow adventurers when he first starts adventuring with them. However, this would only detect evil Clerics and other Divine classes - an Alchemist would not detect as Evil unless he or she had "active evil intent" when scanned.

Smarter Paladins would likely wait 'til 5th level and scan those companions again, as at 5th level faint evil can be detected for evil non-cleric PCs.

And of course as Belkar in OotS proved, a cultural heritage of thin sheets of lead is always handy. ;) http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/detectEvil.html#detect-evil


Nope, I don't think that means what you think it means.

"Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell."

In the first part, the paladin can use detect evil as per the spell, concentrating, area of effect, accumulating information round over round, etc. Please note the .(period) after the word "spell." This is a standard action.

Alternatively - in a way NOT supported by the spell:

"A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range."

This last limitation only applies while the paladin is using the class specific, move action, gather all the information in one round version. The word "can" in the first sentence implies a choice is available and the clause "While focusing on one individual or object" in the next is unnecessary unless there are situations where a paladin might NOT be concentrating on one individual or object.

My interpretation is the full-blown spell-like use is more obvious and the focused individual version is more discreet. It is this latter version most paladins probably use in social settings.

Depending upon how the paladin uses the ability, the character may or may not be fine. Though once the paladin has suspicions or the character has more the 4HD, not fine is more likely.


As far as I know, they are playing book I. So the alchemist has, I suppose, less than 5HD. He's not a cleric, antipaladin, undead, outsider or creature with the [EVIL] subtype. So he could be standing in front of the paladin, and he couldn't be detected, at all.

Once they hit book II, and he has 5hd, it'll be different, though.

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