So Pathfinder is full of magical diseases which deal ability damage and the like. Some of them created by NPCs in the campaign setting. Is there any rule stating I can't create a magical disease (or bacteria, virus, parasite, etc.) which heals ability damage, or the like, instead? Certainly there are examples of beneficial bacteria and the like in the real world.
You're the GM, do what you want.
Beware of this - once this genie is out of the bottle, your players will seek out this disease and make sure they're always infected. It's basically like having their own cleric-in-a-petri-dish.
This could be very game changing.
I would suggest making it come with a downside. You get your blood-borne cleric pathogen BUT this other bad thing happens as a side effect. Pimples. Tourettes. ED. Or make it a game mechanic like grab a random oracle curse or some such.
I'm not the GM. It's just something that came up in a game that I was wondering about.
So yeah, my questions is why isn't there a bunch of good magical diseases, bacteria, etc that people are infecting themselves with. I mean it took practically nothing to do away with stored supplies, will possibly take years to get restocked, and the 2nd book goes out of its way to show that basic plague practices are useless against magic. Seems like the world would have ended already if there wasn't a counter acting force.
Not looking to reverse a ruling, just looking to discuss the rules and implications on the matter. Looking at the Affliction's page drugs are listed. Certainly there are medically useful drugs.
So Pathfinder is full of magical diseases which deal ability damage and the like. Some of them created by NPCs in the campaign setting. Is there any rule stating I can't create a magical disease (or bacteria, virus, parasite, etc.) which heals ability damage, or the like, instead? Certainly there are examples of beneficial bacteria and the like in the real world.
Actually since you are the player you would need a rule saying you can do something like that, and what you are trying to do would not be called an affliction. "Afflictions" are intended to do bad things. Actually there is no game term for it. It would more likely be something more like a paladin's mercy, which is pretty close to a reverse affliction or an non-magical version of the restoration spells.
Actually since you are the player you would need a rule saying you can do something like that, and what you are trying to do would not be called an affliction. "Afflictions" are intended to do bad things. Actually there is no game term for it. It would more likely be something more like a paladin's mercy, which is pretty close to a reverse affliction or an non-magical version of the restoration spells.So Pathfinder is full of magical diseases which deal ability damage and the like. Some of them created by NPCs in the campaign setting. Is there any rule stating I can't create a magical disease (or bacteria, virus, parasite, etc.) which heals ability damage, or the like, instead? Certainly there are examples of beneficial bacteria and the like in the real world.
If I can only do things the rules state then my character just exploded from all the biological waste he can't expel. I come up with a giant list of other things not stated or defined by the rules as well if you really want to grind things to a halt. Your argument for afflictions is semantic and not supported by the things listed on that page. Unless you are saying there is no beneficial medical use for Alcohol or pain killers?
Also, the NPCs did what I'm talking about so I have to assume there are rules for it somewhere. We'll just use those rules.
There aren't rules for it, the writers of the AP just made it up and set the conditions that it had already worked. There aren't any fleshed out rules for what you're trying to do.
And, for what it's worth you don't see things like this in real life.
Rather, bacteria/parasites(symbiotes)/etc which provide a benefit to people do exist but have become a normal part of existence. Such as the but bacteria we have in our guts. Our bodies do not produce it, but without them we would have a lot of digestive difficulty.
The serious answer here is, allowing what you want to happen would be unbalancing. And beyond that, dispersing whatever the thing is isn't really the problem (which is what the magic box did). Rather your problem is you need to magically make a beneficial bacteria. And there simply are no rules for such a thing.
Also, your argument about the rules telling you what you can and can't do is wrong. The rules don't tell you that you can go to the bathroom. They also don't tell you that you have any sort of penalty (such as exploding) for failing to do so.
A GM can make up things beyond the rules, but that is the GM's prerogative. Not yours as a player. If your GM is wise he will politely by firmly tell you "Sorry, but no".
If I can only do things the rules state then my character just exploded from all the biological waste he can't expel.
Don't go getting all passive-aggressive here. You came here asking for advice and got it. You asked for rules and you've been told there are no rules for this. That's all the answer you're going to get so there's no need to get retailiative over it.
Now, if you want to do this, talk to your GM and see if he can provide the way. I'm not familiar with the AP and how it was done, but I'm quite sure it was just "plot" (as opposed to "rules mechanic"), so your GM is free to make up whatever mechanic he wants. If you ask him nicely, he might just do that for you - hopefully even tie it to a quest, maybe even to the main quest line of the AP; as you complete stages of the main story, you learn pieces of the puzzle and eventually you can make the happy disease you want to make.
Lycanthropy can be argued to be a beneficial affliction.
Actually since you are the player you would need a rule saying you can do something like that, and what you are trying to do would not be called an affliction. "Afflictions" are intended to do bad things. Actually there is no game term for it. It would more likely be something more like a paladin's mercy, which is pretty close to a reverse affliction or an non-magical version of the restoration spells.So Pathfinder is full of magical diseases which deal ability damage and the like. Some of them created by NPCs in the campaign setting. Is there any rule stating I can't create a magical disease (or bacteria, virus, parasite, etc.) which heals ability damage, or the like, instead? Certainly there are examples of beneficial bacteria and the like in the real world.
If I can only do things the rules state then my character just exploded from all the biological waste he can't expel. I come up with a giant list of other things not stated or defined by the rules as well if you really want to grind things to a halt. Your argument for afflictions is semantic and not supported by the things listed on that page. Unless you are saying there is no beneficial medical use for Alcohol or pain killers?
Also, the NPCs did what I'm talking about so I have to assume there are rules for it somewhere. We'll just use those rules.
Actually NPC's do get to do things PC's can do for story reasons. You the PC may not be able to give yourself some variant version of template, while an NPC may be a lich that has DR magic and slashing.
With that being said don't be a jerk.
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If I can only do things the rules state then my character just exploded from all the biological waste he can't expel.
Nope, because the rules don't state you can explode from unexpelled biological waste. ;)
There aren't rules for it, the writers of the AP just made it up and set the conditions that it had already worked. There aren't any fleshed out rules for what you're trying to do.
Whatever criteria was used to create the disease would be the rules. If they are balanced, I can crunch some numbers with the list and figure it out. What I can't figure out is the small details, of which I guess there are none.
And, for what it's worth you don't see things like this in real life.
Rather, bacteria/parasites(symbiotes)/etc which provide a benefit to people do exist but have become a normal part of existence. Such as the but bacteria we have in our guts. Our bodies do not produce it, but without them we would have a lot of digestive difficulty.
That is only for older bacteria that has become a normal part of our bodily function. Humans have been cultivating beneficial bacteria for centuries. What do you think cheese is? And we didn't even have magic for that. Imagine what thousands of years of magical civilization must have come up with?
The serious answer here is, allowing what you want to happen would be unbalancing. And beyond that, dispersing whatever the thing is isn't really the problem (which is what the magic box did). Rather your problem is you need to magically make a beneficial bacteria. And there simply are no rules for such a thing.
How? I'm talking about using the same mechanics, except they can heal instead of harm. That would, in fact, balance the scales. It isn't as if there is balance now. The only thing stopping plague from destroying the world is the odd fact that evil doers haven't infected up a bunch of lv 3+ anti-paladins and teleported them to major population hubs. And other such evils. Are the rules of the game, harmful magic can do whatever but healing magic has to follow the rules! Again, the cure and harm line of spells says otherwise. Also, Contagion and Cure Disease are the same spell level, and lessor restoration is a lower spell level.
Also, your argument about the rules telling you what you can and can't do is wrong. The rules don't tell you that you can go to the bathroom. They also don't tell you that you have any sort of penalty (such as exploding) for failing to do so.
A GM can make up things beyond the rules, but that is the GM's prerogative. Not yours as a player. If your GM is wise he will politely by firmly tell you "Sorry, but no".
And here is why that ruling doesn't function: Then where does the water go?
I could continue the bit, but the point is that I'm going to take a lot of time asking a lot of questions and get a rule for every single possible function and outcome of drinking water (including whether or not I even can, and how). The rules are how I interact with the world of the game. If I can only do what the rules say, then I need to have these things detailed so I can ensure I'm having my character do things properly. I would also like them in writing for future reference. Just to make sure I'm following them properly. [Pick up a biology and physics book rinse and repeat until you see how silly this gets. Or just look at the length of said books.]
The game simply doesn't function if only what is specifically stated is allowed.
The GM can change, modify, remove, and add to the rules. He does not work outside them. The GM is also a player of the Pathfinder Game.
Don't go getting all passive-aggressive here. You came here asking for advice and got it. You asked for rules and you've been told there are no rules for this. That's all the answer you're going to get so there's no need to get retailiative over it.
Now, if you want to do this, talk to your GM and see if he can provide the way. I'm not familiar with the AP and how it was done, but I'm quite sure it was just "plot" (as opposed to "rules mechanic"), so your GM is free to make up whatever mechanic he wants. If you ask him nicely, he might just do that for you - hopefully even tie it to a quest, maybe even to the main quest line of the AP; as you complete stages of the main story, you learn pieces of the puzzle and eventually you can make the happy disease you want to make.
I have no strong desire to do this, I'm playing a Warlord. My question is, in all the thousands of years of magical civilization, why hasn't anyone else? There is nothing in the rules of logic, magic, or the game that specifically disallows it helpful bacteria. And there is magically harmful bacteria in the game. Why hasn't some NPC cleric lost someone to some evil plague and created a good plague to fight it? Can it not be done? Then we need to have a pretty extensive explanation as to why bacteria helpful to humanoids is immune to magic.
Actually NPC's do get to do things PC's can do for story reasons. You the PC may not be able to give yourself some variant version of template, while an NPC may be a lich that has DR magic and slashing.
I just do whatever the NPC did to gain the template? Also, name calling? Let's discuss this like adults.
My question is, in all the thousands of years of magical civilization, why hasn't anyone else? There is nothing in the rules of logic, magic, or the game that specifically disallows it helpful bacteria. And there is magically harmful bacteria in the game. Why hasn't some NPC cleric lost someone to some evil plague and created a good plague to fight it? Can it not be done? Then we need to have a pretty extensive explanation as to why bacteria helpful to humanoids is immune to magic.
Maybe because "disease" = "bad" in peoples' minds, so nobody has ever thought outside that box to wonder if "disease" might equal "good". You might be the first one to ever think of it. Or perhaps a few others thought of it but never acted on those ideas, or they acted on it and tried to do it but nobody ever succeeded in creating it.
Maybe if you follow this idea, do the research, quest for the answers, question the bad guy NPCs in the story, learn what they did, replicate it, alter the process to be a good pathogen instead of a destructive one, you might be the first person to ever think of this idea and actually succeed at creating it.
Or maybe you won't succeed, in which case the next guy to think outside this box will wonder why nobody ever thought of it...
On a side note, the BBEG of this AP thought of using magical devices to spread bad, destructive diseases. It looks like he is the first one to ever think of it AND succeed at doing it (at least, I don't think this happens in any other AP or any Golarion lore that I know of). I bet this BBEG NPC asked the same question as you - why hasn't anybody else ever thought of this?
I just do whatever the NPC did to gain the template? Also, name calling? Let's discuss this like adults.
I was referring to your hyperbole and intentionally taking my words out of context. That is jerkish behavior, and only derails conversations. So how about you being an adult and not do it anymore, and this part of the conversation can end.
Also I said for story reason becaise sometimes the NPC's just break the rules. Basically the author will create a story reason that has no place in the rules for an NPC to be able to do something. And authors do not get to create rules whenever they want. That is why an NPC doing something just breaks a rule at times. Now for the most part when an author writes for Paizo they follow the rules, but sometimes the rules get in the way.
There are also no rules for creating diseases or beneficial afflictions. They just exist because the game says they exist. Many of them exist in the game world already, not because some NPC made them.
As an example there is a mold//fungus that deals con damage, but it was not created by anyone. It is just a hazard that has to be dealt with.
TLDR: There is no rule for what you want to do. You can look at what the rules allow and houserule something, but there are no rules on "how to create new afflictions that actually do good things". That is because afflictions are designed to harm people in the game. The game is an abstraction, not a simulation so not everything in real life is in the game in every possible aspect. That is why I suggested the paladin mercy and the restoration spells.
Just to be clear doing what the NPC did to get the variant template is not following the rules because the author can't make new rules, so unless it is called out as a new rule or template(in that specific case) you are not following the rules.
Corrick, it seems clear you only want the answer of "yes, do this" despite everyone else telling you there are no rules for this and you seemingly ignoring the part where there aren't even any guidelines to begin to do this. You talk about basing it off what the NPCs did, but I guarantee you the NPCs used a magical device made of plotunobtainium. There are no rules, no guidelines for this.
I'm sorry you seem incapable of accepting that answer.
Again, the problem isn't the device which merely spreads existent disease. You're asking to create beneficial disease with no rule for how those might exist or come about.
If on the other hand you want to make a magical device that spontaneously turns all milk into cheese...that can probably be made of plotunobtainium and handwavium without much fuss.
I feel like people missed the part where I said I wasn't looking to undo a ruling and wanted to discuss the matter. This is fun for me. If I wanted to easily create a Utopia I'd just make resetting Cure Disease, Remove Poison, Create Food and Water, Restoration, etc traps. Utopia hallways are fun, and cheap for what they do.
Don't get too caught up on what the names of things are. Names are fluff. Fluff doesn't matter, only the mechanics matter. If Fighters were named something else, would their mechanics change? If they were renamed Swordmasters in the new printing, would you argue that they can only use swords?
Maybe because "disease" = "bad" in peoples' minds, so nobody has ever thought outside that box to wonder if "disease" might equal "good". You might be the first one to ever think of it. Or perhaps a few others thought of it but never acted on those ideas, or they acted on it and tried to do it but nobody ever succeeded in creating it.
This is not outside the box thinking, this is a fairly logical step. There is cheese in the game, so people have some concept of useful fungus. This also introduces so many logical, magical, and technological holes in your thousands of years old civilization.
It's simply baffling to me that this possibility could occur. To the point where I discount it as a writer not properly thinking out their world and rules before beginning to write. "No one ever thought of it or succeeded" is going to require a very detailed and specific explanation of why. You will also need the same level of explanation as to why bad guys keep pulling this off.
I haven't played through a lot of the APs and haven't finished this one so I can't speak to other evil plague success. I can say I've dealt with evil plague shenanigan's my entire gaming career so, at least from my perspective, he is hardly the first to try it. This is simply the first one that was the focus of the plot.
And again, you use the same passive aggressive question of asking for "Any rule that says I can't." That's not how the game works. You need to find a rule that says you can. And for a question like this, that rule is "ASK YOUR GM."
Again, this ruling doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There are rules for drowning and suffocating but, to my knowledge, there are no specific rules for breathing. Can I breath? How do I breath? Can I blow? Is there a rule that says I can breath through my nose? If not, then I can't, according to you. If I pick up a Biology and/or Physics book and start asking questions, how much in there is going to be specifically allowed by the rules?
I was referring to your hyperbole and intentionally taking my words out of context. That is jerkish behavior, and only derails conversations. So how about you being an adult and not do it anymore, and this part of the conversation can end.
Also I said for story reason becaise sometimes the NPC's just break the rules. Basically the author will create a story reason that has no place in the rules for an NPC to be able to do something. And authors do not get to create rules whenever they want. That is why an NPC doing something just breaks a rule at times. Now for the most part when an author writes for Paizo they follow the rules, but sometimes the rules get in the way.
I quoted your entire post, how did I take it out of context? This part of the conversation won't end, because I do not concede your point. There are a pleathera of things people can do that the rules don't cover. Sex, pregnancy, and birth for instance. How are people breeding then? There are children so I assume they are doing it somehow. But according to you, humans can't get pregnant. There is no rule that says I can escape the atmosphere of Golarian with flight. If I start flying straight up, what happens then? Do I just go on forever, do I hit a wall? Again, this list will go on, and on, and on. Your rule does not function.
Story does not trump continuity or rules. These are the foundation upon which things are built. If there is a flaw with them then everything else suffers. Making slayers barely go toe to toe with Uber Vamps and then having them take them down like nothing in the finale is not good writing, no matter how much you think story trumps. Is gravity "getting in the way" if Moffat decides to have Sherlock fly like Superman to the next clue to get there in time?
There are also no rules for creating diseases or beneficial afflictions. They just exist because the game says they exist. Many of them exist in the game world already, not because some NPC made them.
Again, there are, because an NPC has done it. If the NPC has done it, it is now a possibility in your universe. Unless a fundamental law changed to suddenly make it possible, that means it has always been possible. This is why you don't throw stuff out all willy nilly. There is a spell that let's me talk to gods, I can gather all data needed to pull off what NPCs pull off given proper time and resources. If nothing else, some binary questioning will narrow things down.
Basically, here is how I see it. The rules state:
A + B = C
and
C - A = B
And that's it.
Now I say that clearly A = C - B. You say that formula wasn't in the rules so you can't do it. I say if you can't A = C - B then clearly C - A = B and A + B = C do not function.
The disease rules state that the name is not for "true diseases", merely the category these things are placed in. So, according to the rules, disease and fungus fall in the same category. Now, Cheese is in the game and either the crafting or profession rules can be used to make it. So we now that we can, in fact, make and manipulate fungus. An NPC created his own disease, so we know this is a possibility in the game. We also know that diseases can be magical.
So there is fungus, I can make it, and it can be magically delicious. It just can't be helpfully, magically delicious? No Penicillin then?
That is because afflictions are designed to harm people in the game.
Pharmaceuticals, drugs, and poisons are all listed under afflictions. Clearly they were designed to do more than harm people in game. I say poisons because dosage is sometimes the only distinction between medicine and poison. And sometimes you want the harmful effect of one poison to counter a worse effect. Which would still fall in the 'heal' category for me.
TLDR: There is no rule for what you want to do. You can look at what the rules allow and houserule something, but there are no rules on "how to create new afflictions that actually do good things". That is because afflictions are designed to harm people in the game. The game is an abstraction, not a simulation so not everything in real life is in the game in every possible aspect. That is why I suggested the paladin mercy and the restoration spells.
Okay there is a leap in your logic here. Because earlier you state you can only do what the rules state you can do. Yet here you state the game is an abstraction and the rules aren't meant to cover everything you can do. I agree that the rules are abstractions and will not cover every specific detail as they would then be just several volumes of physics and biology. However, you can't have it both ways. Either the rules absolutely state what is and is not, or they are a shot hand abstraction. Again, otherwise no one can breath or reproduce. So which is it?
Mechanics are not the be all and end all of story. Personalities are the meat of story, whether it's a magician that would be helpful to the world at large by creating such a disease, or the very malevolent Lord of Plagues who successfully twists such work.
Mechanics are the physics of the game. They are the foundation upon which the universe is built. If they are not steady, nothing is steady. Story does not trump continuity unless sloppy writing is your goal. If you don't want to make a perfect world a world that would only collapse in to chaos, you need to be mindful of the implications and logical conclusions of the rules and concepts introduced.
Corrick, it seems clear you only want the answer of "yes, do this" despite everyone else telling you there are no rules for this and you seemingly ignoring the part where there aren't even any guidelines to begin to do this. You talk about basing it off what the NPCs did, but I guarantee you the NPCs used a magical device made of plotunobtainium. There are no rules, no guidelines for this.
I'm sorry you seem incapable of accepting that answer.
Again, the problem isn't the device which merely spreads existent disease. You're asking to create beneficial disease with no rule for how those might exist or come about.
If on the other hand you want to make a magical device that spontaneously turns all milk into cheese...that can probably be made of plotunobtainium and handwavium without much fuss.
I don't want any particular answer, I want to discuss the matter. The arguments put forward have not convinced me and are hardly without flaw. If the NPC has plotunobtainium, then plotunobtainium exists and I can also get it. Which is why you should be mindful of the plotunobtainium you introduce in to your universe. You should also be mindful of how the other rules and concepts will interact with it. Because "Hey guys check out A." "Cool, So according to M, I could use A to make Z, which means the boss is dead now right?" is not an issue with the player.
With this idea in mind, I would say that you could create the equivalent of a counter-agent or anti-venom to whatever pathogen or venom exists to counter it's effects, but not bolster a character beyond their normal abilities, unless you wanted to make "magical steriods" which would give a alchemical bonus to ability scores or some-such type effect.
Lycanthropy can be argued to be a beneficial affliction.I see someone who's never watched "American Werewolf In London".
Lol, yeah, and this guy probably doesn't think it's a beneficial affliction either.
I think you miss the point of plotunobtanium, it is by it's very nature made of plot and is unobtainable.
Just because something exists, does not mean players have access to it. Nor should they. Occasionally GMs need to do things that players can't. Otherwise the game does not and cannot maintain a mechanical balance.
I'm sorry that this appears to offend your sense of verisimilitude, the developers chose to have some level of mechanical balance over complete verisimilitude.
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Clearly there are two discussions going on here.
1. Game mechanics: What is the rule that lets bad guys make diseases, and how can players use that rule to make their own diseases (including beneficial diseases)?
I think this is already answered: There is no rule. It doesn't exist. An AP author made some plot that is not based on a rule. If you want a rule for this, you'll have to make a house rule.
2. Roleplaying the world: Why is this not being done all the time? Why aren't bad guys frequently creating diseases and using them to achieve their nefarious goals? Why aren't good guys frequently doing the same thing to defeat bad guys or to help mankind (etc.) with beneficial diseases?
In short, why has nobody done this before?
The answer to this is much bigger with many possible answers.
I'll start by asking:
a. Why did nobody build an aeroplane before the Wright Brothers?
b. Why did nobody build an electric light before Edison?
c. Why did nobody build a telescope before Lippershey?
d. Why did nobody build a sailing ship before the first guy that actually built one?
e. Why did nobody make a sword before the first guy who made one?
f. Why did nobody make fire before the first cave man who did?
The answer to all the above, and to your question, is that every invention has a first time that it is invented. When that guy {whoever that guy is) invents a thing (whatever that thing is), then he's the first one and lots of people might ask "Why didn't anyone do that before?"
As for why nobody made a plague device before, maybe the BBEG of this AP is the first guy who thought of it. Or maybe others thought of it but never carried it out, or tried to but were unable to get it to work. Maybe even a few succeeded but nobody knows it was done this way because the villain didn't advertise his villainy (we all just think the great plague of wherever was a natural one when it wasn't).
Any of those answers could explain why this AP has a seeming new invention (artificial plague in a box) that (seemingly) has not been used before.
With this idea in mind, I would say that you could create the equivalent of a counter-agent or anti-venom to whatever pathogen or venom exists to counter it's effects, but not bolster a character beyond their normal abilities, unless you wanted to make "magical steriods" which would give a alchemical bonus to ability scores or some-such type effect.
I would say that is more difficult. You would have to have a specific counter-agent for each thing. That means you have to identify exactly how each disease works and a specific method for countering them. Certainly it makes sound scientific sense. It just doesn't make a lot of magical sense. Why spend all of the time and effort make a bunch of unique agents? Just make one that heals X amount of Dex damage. You now how one thing which is useful for all other disease which deal Dex damage. Certainly the harmful disease just deals Dex damage, mechanically speaking.
I think you miss the point of plotunobtanium, it is by it's very nature made of plot and is unobtainable.
Just because something exists, does not mean players have access to it. Nor should they. Occasionally GMs need to do things that players can't. Otherwise the game does not and cannot maintain a mechanical balance.
I'm sorry that this appears to offend your sense of verisimilitude, the developers chose to have some level of mechanical balance over complete verisimilitude.
No it isn't, it's merely difficult to obtain and/or is needed to accomplish a thing. I suggest you look that up again. Might want to double check the ridiculous things spells let you do as well. Given enough time and resource, there are practically no limits. The limits that are there, are so high that they are typically more of a problem then the players getting the thing.
The game already does not maintain a mechanical balance, so that cry doesn't count for much. Also, having a counter to something does not unbalance. Point of fact, it actually gives you balance. That's why you have to put counterweights on a scale.
1. Game mechanics: What is the rule that lets bad guys make diseases, and how can players use that rule to make their own diseases (including beneficial diseases)?
I think this is already answered: There is no rule. It doesn't exist. An AP author made some plot that is not based on a rule. If you want a rule for this, you'll have to make a house rule.
If you interact with it in the game, then that means there are rules for it. That's what makes it a game and not a story. Also, if it has no rules governing it, the claims of balance again fall flat as it, by definition, is not balanced.
NPCs are also just as much of a part of the game as the players. Meaning, if we go by Wraith's ruling, that there has to be a rule to allow it, otherwise it can't happen. So unless the NPC followed a set rule to create the plague, he couldn't have done it.
NPCs and PCs are both simply inhabitants of a world. Rules would no more interact with them differently than gravity would interact with you or I differently.
2. Roleplaying the world: Why is this not being done all the time? Why aren't bad guys frequently creating diseases and using them to achieve their nefarious goals? Why aren't good guys frequently doing the same thing to defeat bad guys or to help mankind (etc.) with beneficial diseases?
In short, why has nobody done this before?
The answer to this is much bigger with many possible answers.
I'll start by asking:
a. Why did nobody build an aeroplane before the Wright Brothers?
b. Why did nobody build an electric light before Edison?
c. Why did nobody build a telescope before Lippershey?
d. Why did nobody build a sailing ship before the first guy that actually built one?
e. Why did nobody make a sword before the first guy who made one?
f. Why did nobody make fire before the first cave man who did?
Magic throws a spanner in those works. The answer is magic, the ability to warp reality within 6 seconds or less. That and the fact that we didn't build ourselves on the bones of ancient and hyper advanced civilizations whose power, technology, magic, and knowledge is constantly mingled with.
The question is not, why did no one do something first. The question is, if I can use magic to create a red shirt, why can't I use magic to create a blue shirt. Does red and blue react differently to magic? If so, exactly why and how? If not, then I can and I wonder why no one else made blue shirts in the last few thousand years. Has no one liked blue? That's an odd part of your story, why?
And yes, the question of why aren't the villains doing more disease stuff is a good one. Why isn't some villain getting a group of lv 3 plus Antipaladins, infecting them with everything under the sun, and then teleporting them to population hubs? Or simply have them work with food? 7 days to the grave goes out of it's way to prove that only large stockpiles of Cure Disease could combat that. This is a huge problem and one that should have been considered before the disease mechanics were put in to play. Hardly unique though, Shadowacolypse and all that jazz.
I would say that is more difficult. You would have to have a specific counter-agent for each thing. That means you have to identify exactly how each disease works and a specific method for countering them. Certainly it makes sound scientific sense. It just doesn't make a lot of magical sense. Why spend all of the time and effort make a bunch of unique agents? Just make one that heals X amount of Dex damage. You now how one thing which is useful for all other disease which deal Dex damage. Certainly the harmful disease just deals Dex damage, mechanically speaking.
The why is human nature. Perhaps the resident alchemist doens't like the fact that only the divine casters have a monopoly on cure disease and remove poison and wants to muscle in on their territory and is looking for a way to do it. For poisons, once you have the venom, you can concoct a anti-venom. The same applies to disese (virii).
It would be a nice way to say "See, you don't have to pay the temple of <insert annoyingly prosletyzing deity's church here>, you can pay me as well, and I won't judge you for your bad behavior!
No it isn't, it's merely difficult to obtain and/or is needed to accomplish a thing. I suggest you look that up again. Might want to double check the ridiculous things spells let you do as well. Given enough time and resource, there are practically no limits. The limits that are there, are so high that they are typically more of a problem then the players getting the thing.The game already does not maintain a mechanical balance, so that cry doesn't count for much. Also, having a counter to something does not unbalance. Point of fact, it actually gives you balance....
My gaming philosophy is pretty much the same...anything that is available to NPCs should be available to PCs and vice versa.
The question is, if I can use magic to create a red shirt, why can't I use magic to create a blue shirt.
Because you need red shirts to make the storm troopers effective in combat.
If you interact with it in the game, then that means there are rules for it.
That's not true. Restating it as often as you like does not make it true. Wishing it to be true does not make it true.
Authors write stuff. They don't need mechanics to write it because they're authors creating fiction, creating plot, creating plot devices. They figure the existence or non-existence of a game mechanic to explain their plot device in mechanical game terms is irrelevant. This is such a case.
There is no mechanic for this.
Again...
There is no mechanic for this.
And again...
THERE IS NO MECHANIC FOR THIS!
That's what makes it a game and not a story.
But it IS a story. Every AP has characters, plot, scenery, conflict, conflict resolution. All the stuff a story has. The guy who creates an AP writes the bones of the STORY and then then the GM and Players hash out the details of the STORY at the game table.
Yes, it's a game.
It's both.
Also, if it has no rules governing it, the claims of balance again fall flat as it, by definition, is not balanced.
Authors don't care about balance.
Darth Insidious destroyed the entire Jedi order.
Gandalf defeated a Balrog in melee combat.
Ender Wiggins destroyed an entire alien species without even knowing it.
Yahweh flooded a planet and killed everything except his favorite dude and his family and pets.
Balance is not a plot device.
Stories don't have balance.
APs are stories that create a venue for game but are not constrained by balance or by rules.
That's just how it is.
My gaming philosophy is pretty much the same...anything that is available to NPCs should be available to PCs and vice versa.
This is awesome. I applaud this philosophy.
Nevertheless, when an AP has a plot device devoid of game mechanics like Carrik's OP, then as a GM it's our job to either create our own house rules for it or just let sleeping dogs lie and ignore the lack of mechanics.
If a PC wants to use the same plot device, then we either create the house rule or create reasons to prevent the PCs plan (e.g. "The only way to do it, the way the NPC did it, requires the still beating heart of a god - that NPC spent decades acquiring one but you don't have one - go get one and we'll see about completing this plan of yours..."
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Well, we now use viruses for gene therapy, so I get where you are coming from.
But this idea is so far into the realm of "house rule needed, ask your DM" I don't see how we could help other than suggestion. Which would belong I the home brew section of the forum.
It does remind me of the idea I saw in 3.5 to use the magic trap rules to make good things. Like a town square that cast Create Water into a cistern whenever someone stepped on a pedestal next to it. Or having clinics with Cure Disease traps so the sick can just walk in, step into a stall, an walk out cured.
I am going to flag this to move to home brew, and see if people can help develop your idea.
hat's not true. Restating it as often as you like does not make it true. Wishing it to be true does not make it true.
Authors write stuff. They don't need mechanics to write it because they're authors creating fiction, creating plot, creating plot devices. They figure the existence or non-existence of a game mechanic to explain their plot device in mechanical game terms is irrelevant. This is such a case.
There is no mechanic for this.
Again...
There is no mechanic for this.
And again...
THERE IS NO MECHANIC FOR THIS!
If it doesn't follow rules it is, by definition, not a game. Rules are what make a game a game. Having something impact the characters mechanically requires rules. You can shout all you like, but that doesn't change what a game is. You are referring to stories, and you are correct in this regard. An author doesn't have to follow any rules but those he wants. However, that doesn't make what the author is doing a game. It makes it a story. Games can have story, but they are defined by their rule set. If the author wants to have something happen within a game, they have to do so within the confines of the rules, because that's all the game actually is.
Example 1: If a character punches the player in a cutscene, but the game resumes at full health, the punch happened in story, not in game.
Example 2: One of the PC catches the CotCT NPC disease and takes Con damage. The disease does not exist solely within the story now, it also exists within the game. Since it exists within the game, some sort of rules govern it.
But it IS a story. Every AP has characters, plot, scenery, conflict, conflict resolution. All the stuff a story has. The guy who creates an AP writes the bones of the STORY and then then the GM and Players hash out the details of the STORY at the game table.
Yes, it's a game.
It's both.
No. It's game which features a story. The core rules are the game's engine. The AP and modules are the levels built for the game. They involve story, but they are not a story. No more than a movie is a soundtrack because it has music.
Authors don't care about balance.
Darth Insidious destroyed the entire Jedi order.
Gandalf defeated a Balrog in melee combat.
Ender Wiggins destroyed an entire alien species without even knowing it.
Yahweh flooded a planet and killed everything except his favorite dude and his family and pets.Balance is not a plot device.
Stories don't have balance.
APs are stories that create a venue for game but are not constrained by balance or by rules.That's just how it is.[/i]
Those are all stories, not games. They are also in different universes which feature different rules. Your point here is moot.
Plenty of writers also care a great deal about the balance of the world and take care to maintain it. Not everyone does whatever they like without regard. Some people care more about the world then any particular story or character.
Well, we now use viruses for gene therapy, so I get where you are coming from.
But this idea is so far into the realm of "house rule needed, ask your DM" I don't see how we could help other than suggestion. Which would belong I the home brew section of the forum.
It does remind me of the idea I saw in 3.5 to use the magic trap rules to make good things. Like a town square that cast Create Water into a cistern whenever someone stepped on a pedestal next to it. Or having clinics with Cure Disease traps so the sick can just walk in, step into a stall, an walk out cured.
I am going to flag this to move to home brew, and see if people can help develop your idea.
Creating the actual disease is home brew, whether or not you can is a matter of RAW. I'm interested in discussing the rules and their implications, not developing HB diseases. This is a thought concept.
RAW you can do exactly that: "Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat."
You can create a wand of Fireball.
You can create a wand of Cure Disease.
You can create a resetting trap of Fireball.
You can create a resetting trap of Cure Disease.
They are not custom items (other than the reset time, which you should always put forth as "I don't know, what was the reset time on that last magic trap we encountered"), anymore than wands, so you are free to make them per the normal crafting rules. It's called the Utipia Hallway. You create a set up beneficial traps so that when you walk through the hallway you are completely healed and receive all, or most, basic wants and needs. Pretty cheap, goes infinitely, and if you charge a small rate to walk through so you can create more.
Your DM is unlikely to like it. However, you've probably walked through the exact opposite hallway by the time you can make one so it's hard to ban then without just banning magical traps in general.
Is there any rule stating I can't create a magical disease (or bacteria, virus, parasite, etc.) which heals ability damage, or the like, instead?
No. There is not an explicit rule prohibiting a player from creating a magical disease, beneficial or otherwise. However, there are also no game mechanics currently in place that govern the creation of player designed diseases that i am aware of. Thus, to actually create such a disease in game would be the realm of home brew at the moment.
As such, the remainder of this discussion should take place over in that forum i believe.
Very interesting idea you have here, OP, I like it.
No existing rules for it, but I would look to the spell research rules for it.
Describe what you wanna do, as a spell. Discuss with GM. Research spell. Cast spell.
BAMF!
Creativity should be rewarded, not punished.
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Beneficial and harmful bacteria in the real world don't have opposite end effects. Tuberculosis kills you. Gut bacteria aid in digestion. Nitrogen-fixing bacteria keep soil fertile. Some bacteria can help prevent infection (such as native gut bacteria competing with harmful C diff) but as far as I know they don't repair damage done.
I would not expect a beneficial disease in PF to heal ability damage simply because a harmful disease causes ability damage.
In fact, it's possible that beneficial magical microorganisms already exist, but are not recognized as such.
For example, perhaps certain sorcerous bloodlines are actually caused by infection with a magical virus that modifies you to become magical. That would explain some bloodlines that are unlikely to occur by classic interbreeding.
Perhaps magical yeasts are used in certain alchemical processes.
Perhaps protective magical bacteria are actually ubiquitous and the interplay between these bacteria and the harmful ones (some of which are also magical) account for some of the variation between real-world disease virulence and that given in PF. For example, while cholera is pretty close to its real-world untreated fatality rate of 50% (assuming 10 Con commoner), the Bubonic Plague is much more dangerous with a fatality rate of over 90% compared to 60%, and rabies is much less dangerous (100% fatality once symptoms show, vs 45%). So there might be a protective bacteria cleaning up rabies, while magically enhanced bubonic plague is relatively unopposed.
If you interact with it in the game, then that means there are rules for it.
Having rules for a thing in a game does not mean there are rules for creating that thing.
There are rules for the disease.
There are no rules for creating that disease, or a similar disease.
Maybe the "disease" is "cured" when it can't heal something any more.
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Creating the actual disease is home brew, whether or not you can is a matter of RAW. I'm interested in discussing the rules and their implications, not developing HB diseases. This is a thought concept.
Well then, you're out of luck. There are no rules for creating diseases, beneficial or otherwise. So the RAW discussion is at an end.
If you would like to continue your "thought concept" it belongs in homebrew.
That's not to say it isn't a discussion worth having, and I tried to be supportive in my first post. Just that you can't say you want a RAW discussion about something for which there are no rules. Kinda by definition.
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There was no leap in my logic. You made several mistakes while reading what I wrote. As an example I said the fungus exist. I never said it was created byban NPC. It is just a danger that exist. As for my restoration example that is a suggested house rule. I even said as much. As for the story not trumping the rules what I mentioned with Pathfinder authors breaking the rules was a fact. Now if you are trying to say Paizo should not allow it anymore that is a different argument than what I thought you were saying.
Also game terms are not flavor. they are classifications.
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I think as far as 'useful' and 'good' diseases/afflictions go, they kind of get hidden under the blanket of 'its alchemy!'. Maybe a mushroom DOES fight toxic compounds, or allows people to metabolize them super well. Maybe its even more effective when jellied with some kind of fruit and pickled with a certain breed of yeast. The resulting compound is called Alchemical Anti-toxin. The problem is players will NEVER KNOW about the funny yeast or the mushrooms or anything, because all they ever encounter is the merchant who sells them the finished product, they use it, and never question it again.
I think something like this would be best modeled as a magical spell effect with either a randomized duration or a duration measured by the afflicted's ability scores.
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Reminds me of that Red Dwarf episode.
In terms of mechanical balance, it seems like what you're describing would wind up like lingering potion effects. Another way to keep it in check is by making the effect end when you inevitably succeed on your periodic Fortitude save (because allergies are proof that bodies can be really stupid and don't always know what's good or bad for them) - yes, there's the "you can voluntarily fail saving throws" loophole, but make an exception for this; it's an autonomic process. Another way to keep it under control is to consider that if these things exist, the PCs won't be the only ones hunting them out, and like any other organism, could face the threat of extinction from overharvesting as people keep seeking them out and then overcoming them. It's certainly an amazing exercise in biological role reversal.