Toothy Some half-orcs' tusks are large and sharp, granting a bite attack. This is a primary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of piercing damage...
Natural Attacks: Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type...
...Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.
In today case study a lvl 1 half-orc with the toothy trait is wielding a longspear in both hands, but chooses bite an adjacent enemy and take no attacks with the long spear. Given that he is not using the manufactured weapon during the full attack he does not treat the bite as a secondary attack, but he still gets the benefit of threatening with the spear. And given that the bite attack is a primary attack and his only attack, he adds 1.5 strength to damage.
Is there anything wrong with this reasoning?
nope
Not only does this work, I have played one for years now and did so at Gencon at a table of loads of venture officers, not a single eyelash was batted.
I received funny looks when I declared my bite attack did 1d4+10 damage. (And the Razortusk feat limits the bite to only the full strength bonus, this discord drew my attention.)
Our PFS group is very good for trusting that everyone has ensured they are correctly interpreting the rules. I'm new to the group and wanted to do my due diligence to ensure I've done that, and not abuse their trust.
Thanks for the replies.
If my shaman took improved unarmed strike would that not make her hair hex into a secondary natural attack simply because she had attacks available? Or am i being hard on my self here?
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If my shaman took improved unarmed strike would that not make her hair hex into a secondary natural attack simply because she had attacks available? Or am i being hard on my self here?
No, you're simply misunderstanding. If you use a manufactured weapon with natural weapons in the same full-round attack, then your natural weapons are reduced to secondary. So simply having a manufactured weapon available doesn't make your primary natural attacks secondary--it's only when you use both of them in a full-round attack.
But Will my hair keep working as a primary weapon, it is a secondary weapon by Nature, even if i have another weapon in hand?
Only in Pathfinder will I find a thread full of "Is my hair a primary weapon?"...
I received funny looks when I declared my bite attack did 1d4+10 damage. (And the Razortusk feat limits the bite to only the full strength bonus, this discord drew my attention.)
I hadn't caught that restriction on Razortusk. The Toothy alternative racial trait doesn't have that restriction, but I notice that it only deals piercing damage. Razortusk, I assume, deals all three damage types.
Based on this FAQ, I had always assumed that both ways of getting a bite attack worked the same way.
I had forgotten about Tusked. I note that it seems to be a secondary attack while Razortusk and Toothy are both primary. Having never played a half-orc, I never realized that the options for bite attacks were so different.
If your hair is your only natural weapon, it will always be treated as primary, unless combined in a full attack action with manufactured weapons.
So a few feats and a monk dip away my hair Can flurry away in snake style with VMC magus for piercing strike? All with reach and Wisdom to hit and damage? And frostbite on since it is a natural weapon? It Does Sound even better than what i have planned:)
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I had forgotten about Tusked. I note that it seems to be a secondary attack while Razortusk and Toothy are both primary. Having never played a half-orc, I never realized that the options for bite attacks were so different.
No, it's still a primary bite. It just has a -5 to hit if you use it in a full attack.
I had forgotten about Tusked. I note that it seems to be a secondary attack while Razortusk and Toothy are both primary. Having never played a half-orc, I never realized that the options for bite attacks were so different.No, it's still a primary bite. It just has a -5 to hit if you use it in a full attack.
Isn't that how secondary attacks work? They act as primary if they are the only attack, but take the -5 penalty if used in a full attack with other natural attacks or a manufactured weapon?
My understanding is that primary attacks stay primary when combined with other natural attacks as part of a full round attack.
If your hair is your only natural weapon, it will always be treated as primary, unless combined in a full attack action with manufactured weapons.So a few feats and a monk dip away my hair Can flurry away in snake style with VMC magus for piercing strike? All with reach and Wisdom to hit and damage? And frostbite on since it is a natural weapon? It Does Sound even better than what i have planned:)
I'm not all that familiar with monks, but I don't think that you can flurry with natural attacks.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so, he may make on additional attack, taking a -2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. These attacks can be any combination of unarmed strikes and attacks with a monk special weapon (he does not need to use two weapons to use this ability).
So, unless there are some feats that I don't know about, you can only flurry with unarmed strikes or Monk special weapons.
Feral combat training.
Feral combat training.
Cool! I hadn't noticed the special benefit part of that feat. I'm learning a lot from this thread.
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I had forgotten about Tusked. I note that it seems to be a secondary attack while Razortusk and Toothy are both primary. Having never played a half-orc, I never realized that the options for bite attacks were so different.No, it's still a primary bite. It just has a -5 to hit if you use it in a full attack.Isn't that how secondary attacks work? They act as primary if they are the only attack, but take the -5 penalty if used in a full attack with other natural attacks or a manufactured weapon?
My understanding is that primary attacks stay primary when combined with other natural attacks as part of a full round attack.
Imbicatus misspoke. He meant "No, it's still a primary bite. It just has a -5 to hit if you use it in a full-attack in combination with manufactured weapons."
Also its damage is obviously reduce as well, since it's forced into a secondary attack when used in that full-attack with manufactured weapons.
I had forgotten about Tusked. I note that it seems to be a secondary attack while Razortusk and Toothy are both primary. Having never played a half-orc, I never realized that the options for bite attacks were so different.No, it's still a primary bite. It just has a -5 to hit if you use it in a full attack.Isn't that how secondary attacks work? They act as primary if they are the only attack, but take the -5 penalty if used in a full attack with other natural attacks or a manufactured weapon?
My understanding is that primary attacks stay primary when combined with other natural attacks as part of a full round attack.
Imbicatus misspoke. He meant "No, it's still a primary bite. It just has a -5 to hit if you use it in a full-attack in combination with manufactured weapons."
Also its damage is obviously reduce as well, since it's forced into a secondary attack when used in that full-attack with manufactured weapons.
I read back through the Tusked description, and it doesn't say that it is a primary attack. It also doesn't use the qualifying phrase "manufactured weapons."
Tusked
Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.
Since it gives a blanket penalty for all full attack actions (which includes full attacks with only natural weapons), it is consistent with the rules for secondary weapons, but not with the rules for primary weapons.
Primary natural weapons are treated as if they were secondary if you use them in a full attack with manufactured weapons.
However, you are correct that as written Tusked works a little differently, and in any sort of full attack weapon, it takes a penalty. I think its intent was simply to note the normal effect of using natural weapons with manufactured weapons, but that's not how it reads. It doesn't make it non-primary, and if you have other natural attacks, and use them in a full attack action, it will still do full strength damage. As written, this actually stacks with the penalty for attacking with a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon, as penalties always stack unless otherwise stated.
Primary natural weapons are treated as if they were secondary if you use them in a full attack with manufactured weapons.
However, you are correct that as written Tusked works a little differently, and in any sort of full attack weapon, it takes a penalty. I think its intent was simply to note the normal effect of using natural weapons with manufactured weapons, but that's not how it reads. It doesn't make it non-primary, and if you have other natural attacks, and use them in a full attack action, it will still do full strength damage. As written, this actually stacks with the penalty for attacking with a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon, as penalties always stack unless otherwise stated.
Ok, I found the part of the Universal Monster Rules that makes bites primary attacks by default.
So let me see if I have Tusked sorted out.
1.) If you make a standard attack with your bite, then it deals 1.5 times your STR bonus and takes no penalty to hit.
2.) If you make a full attack using your bite and a pair of claws (that are primary weapons), then all three attacks deal your full STR bonus, the claws use your full BAB, and the bite suffers a -5 penalty to hit.
3.) If you make a full attack action using your bite and a short sword, then the sword deals your full STR bonus and suffers the usual penalties for iterative attacks while the bite deals half of your STR bonus but suffers a -10 penalty to hit.
That's… weird, but it does seem to agree with the wording of the rules.
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Agreed. The -10 to hit when using a manufactured weapon makes Tusked really terrible. I believer that it's not intentional, and should only be treated as a secondary natural attack, with a -5 penalty total. However, strict RAW means it take the -5 penalty from being treated as secondary, and the additional -5 penalty listed in the trait from full attacking.