My cleric's dead, and now my party does not know how to operate a Forge!


Advice


Hi Advice board,
I read about the forge model in the last two days and I like it way more than the standard MMO definitions.
That gave me insight about how to handle the death of my PC and how I could fill the gaps my party's been having since we went past level 8.

You see, we got a Summoner (goes without saying, or DM is having nightmares trying to play around him), an Alchemist (of the bomber subtype, which is another pain in the neck) and an unoptimized Ranger (a switch-hitter with no animal companion).

I had a poorly rolled Cleric (low Str, Dex, Con; I was really squishy, I was constantly encumbered), I managed to survive for almost a year, but a tactical mistake in our last encounter costed my life.
Since the plot was mainly built around my character, I've got my hands a bit tied. I might come back as the same character as before, I pre-emptively rerolled stats to see what could happen (I got very high rolls this time around!), so I wanted to use this opportunity in the best way possible.

Tactics-wise, we've been all over the place. The Summoner always used invisibility first, letting his unhittable Eidolon tank, and casting some control spells - Black Tentacles or Web, for instance; the Alchemist always dies first because dealing 40-50dpr at 9 feet makes him draw the enemies' attentions pretty quickly; the Ranger is unoptimized, therefore he manages to do something meaningful only when fighting favored enemies, on the other hand he's pretty useful outside combat.
My Cleric was pretty much casting Command, Hold Person or healing. I didn't have the stats for any kind of weapon fighting, I often had to patch up the Alchemist because he'd frequntly get hit due to his reckless positioning, and I had to spend turns to get an illusion of durability.

Here comes the Forge model: that's why we're suffering this much! The Summoner acts as both a Hammer and an Anvil, I acted as the Arm, and we have two more Hammers. We were very low on everything that isn't "dealing damage".

So, I made a mistake and I died. I was involved in a divine relic hunt, so I'm going to bargain with my deity for a "special" resurrection. Coming back with my original stats/class means we'll be in the same situation as before, where I'll need every trick in my bag to get past AC20 and getting good FORT/REF rolls, therefore having to waste most of my turns healing people getting whacked or risking death myself.

I can easily make a MAD class, so... Is there an elegant way to get an Anvil/Arm character? I was looking into Paladins, maybe one without a strict code and, for fluff reasons, without Smite
Evil, but there are no official archetypes. Am I right in assuming I'd need a character with decent-to-good defenses and HP, low-moderate weapon damage and options to debuff opponents/buff allies?

I'm also assuming the Alchemist could be talked into getting infusions for his party members, and the Ranger can take the out-of-combat healer role via wands; we're kinda screwed with condition removals. I might look into Leadership, too, and getting a cleric cohort, but I'd like to avoid adding overhead to our combat.

Thanks for sharing your insights!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Mayhap an Oracle? Since it seems you are cursed with bad luck... :)

Full caster class (divine) with a bit of splash depending on Mystery.

Some Mysteries to look at: Ancestor, Battle, Heavens, Time.
An Archetype to consider: Dual-cursed.


Rerednaw wrote:

Mayhap an Oracle? Since it seems you are cursed with bad luck... :)

Full caster class (divine) with a bit of splash depending on Mystery.

Some Mysteries to look at: Ancestor, Battle, Heavens, Time.
An Archetype to consider: Dual-cursed.

I've only made a Magus-Kensai so far since I was trying to go for a high-defenses debuffer. My DM was scared by what came out.

I'll have to take a look into Oracle mysteries. The ones you suggested are melee-focused?

After seeing what happened by allowing a Summoner in our party, my DM is pretty wary into allowing anything post-APG into our party - ESPECIALLY a full caster. But I guess I can avoid going into a full-optimization route...

edit: I was considering a Warpriest too, in line with the Paladin with a lighter code and without smite. Can it work? I need to try rolling one.


Arm/Anvil is a combination that most spellcasting classes can achieve. However, most of them must decide to either do one or the other every round.

A very good choice would be a Bard. You can be a very effective arm by Inspire Courage alone and can increase your arm-ness by expending spellslots for things like haste or good hope.
For the anvil part, you got pretty good save or sucks (cacophonous call, blindness/deafness, hold person/monster, suggestion, glitterdust, grease, slow, etc.). Use metamagic (rods and/or feats) to make them bouncing and persistent.
Be a dirge bard so you can cast mind effects on undead (the most common mind-immune enemies) and gain a few more necromancy spells. The intimidate-bonus is also nice so you have something to do without spending spells. At level 10 you get a move action summon via Dance of the Dead. It even becomes a swift action at level 13!

Other options are


  • Mystic Theurge. First levels of MT are a pain in the neck but since you're already level 8+, it should work out ok.
  • Wizard. There's hardly a better anvil and a wizard is still one of the best arms in the game.
  • Witch. More Anvil than Arm but still very good at what she does: Making the enemy's day miserable.
  • Oracle. Life Mystery. Simple reason: The Mystery gives you anything you need for healing so you can use the rest of your build to do the things you like (melee, summon, cast, whatever). It's my go-to mystery for pretty much any Oracle build.
  • Cleric. You just lost one but the class is still strong. For an Anvil/Arm, I'd go with bad touch. Cleric of Groetus with madness and chaos (protean) is hilarious.
  • Druid. Blight druid with the darkness domain. Build for everything. Decent strength and high Wisdom. Get a conductive amulet of mighty fist and grant the whole party concealment with a slam of your earth elemental form (or whatever you prefer). Debuff foes just by standing next to them. Bring down large enemies (dragons, giants, you name it) with a few summoned shadows. You'd be surprised how many high CR monsters can't even touch shadows!


_Char wrote:

Is there an elegant way to get an Anvil/Arm character? I was looking into Paladins, maybe one without a strict code and, for fluff reasons, without Smite

Evil, but there are no official archetypes. Am I right in assuming I'd need a character with decent-to-good defenses and HP, low-moderate weapon damage and options to debuff opponents/buff allies?

Any spellcaster can be an Anvil/Arm, just by picking different spells.

The secret to being a good Anvil/Arm is to forget about being the Hammer. It sounds glib, but paladins, for examples, are optimized by default for hit point damage, i.e. Hammer time.

Anvils hamper the opponent, without needing to damage them. Grease or wall of stuff are classic anvil spells for wizards, but bards can act as anvils with their fascinate, suggestion, or dirge of doom performances. Even a summoner can act as an anvil, simply by putting a diplodocus in front of the bad guy (also known as a wall of meat spell).

Martials typically act as anvils through combat maneuvers, so if you've got a whip specialist with Über-trip, no one can get within fifteen feet of her without falling down.

Arms, of course, are buff specialists. So an abjuration wizard, a bard, a cleric, or a summoner all make great arms.

I personally think that the witch is a fun Anvil/Arm and second that recommendation, but really, any spellcaster can do it. In terms of action economy, the summoner is probably the best at it, so you might just want to tell the summoner to up her game. Just don't worry about the fact that you do 1d4 + 2 damage every time you hit with an actual weapon and you'll be fine.


The spellcaster sugestions are very welcome (as I'm kinda worried about our lack of prepared spellcasting) but I'm thinking we'd need some more meat. Am I wrong?

With me always "looking innocuous", the summoner being always invisible and the eidolon being untouchable, the other 2 targets always took the brunt of the blows. Then the artificier started flying, so they started splitting ranged and melee damage.

The one time a mook passed my Sanctuary will save, I died... that's why I was thinking about defenses, too: we can't offer only one or two targets, I think we need to share the hate. I looked into summons, too, but I feel we're already crowded - the ranger said he wants to look into valid animal companions. Cleric was really one of the best fit, but I don't like the idea of coming back with another cleric with different stats. It'd have to be a different concept altogether... by the way, we're playing in adapted Forgotten Realms and I was a cleric of the almost-unknown probably-dead former god of Magic and Divination, Savras: that's why my hands are kinda tied about classes and fluff... but there might be ways to use interesting character concepts.


Offense is the best defense. If you can't rely on your Hammers to kill the enemies fast enough, be an anvil and stop them in their tracks. Use defensive magic to stay alive. If all else fails, go invisible yourself. If the rest of the party doesn't want to use tactics that actually work, do your best and if that fails, abandon them (the characters, not the players).

There's only so much even the best anvil can do. If that is not enough, force the rest of the party to re-roll by letting them die.

Keeping the party save is not something you can do on your own if the others can't fulfil basic combat needs and/or use poor tactics all the time.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ask the Summoner to share some of their buffs with the rest of the party. Barkskin, Haste, Protection from Evil, there are a lot of buff spells on the Summoner list.

That would allow you to concentrate on Battlefield control.

Wizards or Arcanist would be my choice, since they can change out their spells depending on what is known of the enemy. The Wizard gets a lot more spells but it is much easier to select spells for an Arcanist. You played a cleric, so you should know how it can be trying to select the correct set of spells and how many of each to take.


BretI wrote:
Ask the Summoner to share some of their buffs with the rest of the party. Barkskin, Haste, Protection from Evil, there are a lot of buff spells on the Summoner list.

Likewise, the Alchemist should use his Extracts for defense if he goes down to quickly and hand out personal protection spells like shield via infusion.

Dark Archive

You're 8th level and the Alchemist doesn't have infusion? Pull them aside and remind them politely yet firmly that passing out one or two extracts at the start of the day would go a LONG way to keeping the party up and running, plus it allows them to spend their turns happily bombing the day away.

As mentioned, have the Summoner share those sweet, sweet buffs every now and then.

If you don't mind being heal focused with the ability to tear up when you need, a Life Oracle is nice. I hear dipping 2 in Paladin helps a ton.


A summon focused evangelist cleric has quite a bit of arm and anvil. Not a lot of non-summon anvil, though.


Can somebody please direct me where to find this Forge model? It sounds interesting and I've not heard of it.

Dark Archive

Tark's forge guide is here.

It's a good read.


Thanks, I've saved it for when I have a better attention span


One anvil and arm option to consider is a high-charisma Evangelist Cleric hangover build.

Here are the parts:
1) Full bardic buffs for Inspire Courage
2) Dazing Channel if you go for a god with Rulership Portfolio (like Horus)
3) The full range of the Cleric Spell list for out of combat utility.

If you click Nefertiti's profile, you can see her build. She is both anvil and arm... It's an interesting choice.

What she isn't though is a party healer. She can still operate a CLW wand, and she always carries a couple of cure spells, but she can't channel to heal. However, she can daze everything in sight, and can keep the party buffed in a fight.


_Char wrote:
The spellcaster sugestions are very welcome (as I'm kinda worried about our lack of prepared spellcasting) but I'm thinking we'd need some more meat. Am I wrong?

Yeah. If you need meat, make it. (Summon Monster MCMLIX.) More generally, a good anvil can stop you from needing meat (wall of stuff, entangle, &c.).

Quote:


The one time a mook passed my Sanctuary will save, I died... that's why I was thinking about defenses, too: we can't offer only one or two targets,

Well, again, with a good anvil, you shouldn't be offering any targets.


This is another reason I'm not a huge fan of the forge model; OP knows he wants an anvil/arm, but is looking at paladins, warpiests, and melee oracles. Orfamy is absolutely correct; an anvil isn't about offering another hard target, it's about removing the enemy's ability to do anything with the targets presented.

If the Alchemist is getting pasted regularly, you need more anvil. Arm is a supplementary role.

Summoner can't necessarily pass out buffs, he has to deal with spells known. He could fix it later, sure.


The only thing I feel the Forge model doesn't take into account, is how a DM reacts to your strengths and weaknesses.

Having two characters who can pump out 40+ dpr at level 8 meant that monsters needed a little durability bump to do anything meaningful, otherwise it's just a damage race: that was our case and the difficulty of our last encounters increased a lot. Let's say that our DM doesn't like giving us zero challenge.

I get why you're suggesting me a non-melee character but I don't think that would fit that well our playstyle because I'd have only spells at my disposal - that's how I died in the first place, because of a Mass Command gone awry, eating a Command which forced me to go prone and a failed Sanctuary after I had a mook in my face! I was also kinda spent and didn't have many spells left from our previous encounter, at least I didn't have any Hold Person ready nor I was sure it would've worked with that enemy.

In the end that's the reason why I've stated I was looking into a melee character: the combat is starting to get a little too much "save or die" and having anything with a sword in your face, be it from wrong positioning, failed spells or whatever, means death.
(Should I also add that we've been quite "unlucky" with loot? Our highest AC is the Ranger's, 22 unbuffed. And that's the Eidolon's, too. At 9/just passed to 10.)

My first idea was a reach barbarian! :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
_Char wrote:

The only thing I feel the Forge model doesn't take into account, is how a DM reacts to your strengths and weaknesses.

Having two characters who can pump out 40+ dpr at level 8 meant that monsters needed a little durability bump to do anything meaningful, otherwise it's just a damage race: that .much "save or die" and having anything with a sword in your face, be it from wrong positioning, failed spells or whatever, means death.
...
(Should I also add that we've been quite "unlucky" with loot? Our highest AC is the Ranger's, 22 unbuffed. And that's the Eidolon's, too. At 9/just passed to 10.)

My first idea was a reach barbarian! :)

Combat is frequently a damage race. The higher you go, the more egregious this becomes. There's even a slang term for this, "rocket tag."

AC high is 22 at 10th? Sorry something else is off. Most monsters at CR+2 the party will run into are going to hit low on 7+, hi end on a 2+. Your GM is doing some serious skewing with his campaign, he must have given the party very high stats or something else to compensate for this wealth handicap?


Rerednaw wrote:


Combat is frequently a damage race. The higher you go, the more egregious this becomes. There's even a slang term for this, "rocket tag."

AC high is 22 at 10th? Sorry something else is off. Most monsters at CR+2 the party will run into are going to hit low on 7+, hi end on a 2+. Your GM is doing some serious skewing with his campaign, he must have given the party very high stats or something else to compensate for this wealth handicap?

The Summoner made everything escalate way too quickly + using the fast progression xp table. As soon as the Eidolon got a bunch of primary natural attacks, he became a killing machine. That was at, dunno, level 5? Then he got to Large size and... hooo boy.

The DM gave us the expected XP rewards for 3-4 sessions, we made 2 levels, and we noticed that something was wrong and started looking into numbers. Basically, we jumped into level 10 before having the chance of looting an adequate amount of items.


I would go fore a reach evangalist cleric if i was in your shoes. Giving the ranger some support and the bomb thrower a solid procenter to hide behind. Several domains are good for that and you only one. Growth domain would allow you to cast blessing of feavor as a standart action, start performance as a move and grow to large size with your reach weapon and combat reflexes as a swift, not bad for a first round:) growth domain Will also give the option of having barkskinn and extended barkskinn memorised as domain spells. Going with travel domain Will allow you to create difficult terrain and dominate earthbound enemies. All in all there are lots of good stuff to Pick from.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
_Char wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:


Combat is frequently a damage race. The higher you go, the more egregious this becomes. There's even a slang term for this, "rocket tag."

AC high is 22 at 10th? Sorry something else is off. Most monsters at CR+2 the party will run into are going to hit low on 7+, hi end on a 2+. Your GM is doing some serious skewing with his campaign, he must have given the party very high stats or something else to compensate for this wealth handicap?

The Summoner made everything escalate way too quickly + using the fast progression xp table. As soon as the Eidolon got a bunch of primary natural attacks, he became a killing machine. That was at, dunno, level 5? Then he got to Large size and... hooo boy.

The DM gave us the expected XP rewards for 3-4 sessions, we made 2 levels, and we noticed that something was wrong and started looking into numbers. Basically, we jumped into level 10 before having the chance of looting an adequate amount of items.

A CR 10 creature (something you could easily run into at 8th) has a low to hit of +13, and a high to hit of +18 with average damage of 33(lo) to 45(hi).

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html

Wealth by level. At 8th, recommended wealth per character is 33,000, at 10th it is 62,000. I will hazard a guess and say you were behind at 8th. :)

If the Eidolon is such a hassle, I'm surprised the GM has not ambushed the party while resting or at an inn. Or used the Control Summoned Creature spell. Or thrown a summoner at the party. Or had a polite talk about the issues posed by the character...


_Char wrote:
I get why you're suggesting me a non-melee character but I don't think that would fit that well our playstyle because I'd have only spells at my disposal - that's how I died in the first place, because of a Mass Command gone awry, eating a Command which forced me to go prone and a failed Sanctuary after I had a mook in my face! I was also kinda spent and didn't have many spells left from our previous encounter, at least I didn't have any Hold Person ready nor I was sure it would've worked with that enemy.

And yet your game seems to have proven that a caster can survive just fine; the Summoner's Invisibility hasn't had any issues has it?

Frankly, in a game where you're wealth-screwed, a full caster is going to be your best choice. A high AC of 22 means that until your GM fixes what happened*, you should assume everything will hit you constantly. Invisibility. Mirror Images. Cowering behind summons. That's frankly the only way you're going to survive at this point. An Invulnerable Rager Barbarian could take to the front lines and live, but he's not going to fill your Forge model goal-- you just push the damage race harder and that skews things even more. The same is going to be true of a Paladin or Warpriest: you're going to wind up playing "meat" and fighting on the front lines, adding more damage, and that's just going to continue the loop.

Thing is, we know that your GM reacts to the party. And knowing that leads me to suggest "full caster". This is what we know your GM has done:

1. Allowed Invisibility to be a successful tactic
2. Increased the difficulty of monsters based on pure damage dealt, without a corresponding wealth boost

Knowing number two, we can pretty easily see that the last thing you want is more meat. Unless your GM realizes what he's doing and stops, more meat is going to get your group TPK'd as everything hits you on every swing and you no longer have a healer who can actually heal well (Warpriests kind of suck at healing, especially since you were apparently doing it in combat, and Paladins can keep themselves upright but aren't great at healing others).

You need to make the meat you have better and safer, not add more of it.

*By the book, even if he accelerated the CRs the increased loot should keep you basically where you should be in wealth. He boosted one and not the other, which if it wasn't intentional is his mistake and can be fixed in five minutes. If it was intentional, the game has other issues.


You could also just combine Anvil and Melee by playing an Eldritch Knight. Arcane Armor Mastery with Mithral Breastplate (or celestial armor if you can get one) grants decent AC. Add a mithral buckler if you need more. On top of that, you get defensive spells. Yes, being an EK will hamper your spells, but you'll still be way better at casting and thus more versatile than a Paladin.

Simple level 10 Sample Build in spoilers below.

Spoiler:
Human Fighter 1 / Transmuter 5 / EK 4
Str 18 (16 + Transmuter bonus), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 19 (15 + human + level increases), Wis 10, Cha 7
1 - Additional traits (magical Knack, reactionary), Power Attack, Weapon Focus
3 - Arcane Strike
5 - Arcane Armor trainig
6 - Wizard bonus feat (extend or CWI)
7 - Arcane Armor Mastery, + any one feat (furious focus is great if you use a 2handed weapon)
9 - weapon specialization

I played this character from 5 to 9. Next feats would have been Improved Crit (I was using a falchion) and greater weapon focus.

I basically used high Int to make my spells useful and feats and buffs to make my melee abilites useful. It was a fun build, to be honest. Turns out you don't need to make every spell count with spell focus and meta magic if you can just as well "poke them with the pointy end".

A more cheesy alternative would be a Paladin 2 / Sorc 3 / Dragon Desciple 4 / EK 10. Strength-Focus. Wear full plate and a shield for awesome defense. Use verbal only spells (blindness, blur, displacement) and still spell. Also uses arcane strike and power attack for high damage. In fact, you'r one-handed damage will match some characters two-handed damage. You can still be a decent god "wizard" as many battlefield control spells don't allow for saves or SR.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:
_Char wrote:
I get why you're suggesting me a non-melee character but I don't think that would fit that well our playstyle because I'd have only spells at my disposal - that's how I died in the first place, because of a Mass Command gone awry, eating a Command which forced me to go prone and a failed Sanctuary after I had a mook in my face! I was also kinda spent and didn't have many spells left from our previous encounter, at least I didn't have any Hold Person ready nor I was sure it would've worked with that enemy.

And yet your game seems to have proven that a caster can survive just fine; the Summoner's Invisibility hasn't had any issues has it?

Frankly, in a game where you're wealth-screwed, a full caster is going to be your best choice. A high AC of 22 means that until your GM fixes what happened*, you should assume everything will hit you constantly. Invisibility. Mirror Images. Cowering behind summons. That's frankly the only way you're going to survive at this point...

This. I agree with Kestral on this. Full caster and stay out of the line of fire.


It was not intentional and "The Talks" with the Summoner brought his Eidolon back to Earth. Our Eidolon was far better at melee combat than our Ranger, actually.

It is being fixed, but it's taking more than 5 minutes as finding stashes of magic items, whose type and enchantments are incidentally exactly what we need, would be quite silly given we were marching through swamps.

The Alchemist has been talked through and will have Infusion asap.

I still stand by my point - I'd rather have the option of going melee than not, but we -need- the options of a full caster. So it's going to be a Cleric, an Oracle or an Eldritched Wizard: the setting strongly disfavours a Witch or a Shaman (which I was looking into as well). I'd gladly trade out some of the Wizard versatility to have another way to contribute to combat and buffering damage before firing spells.


I've played a Wand Magus (Magus with the wand arcana) that uses the greater trip feat.

Use Wand of True Strike (spell combat feature) with a Trip (using greater trip feat) attack. That's +24 on your trip attack, +more if using a trip weapon. Will trip almost everything.

Have your wizard spells (limited compared to a true spell casting class but you have them) for buffing, damage, & control.

Plus if you want to get a bit more crazy, get yourself a familiar (Improved) that can use UMD. Hand that familiar a bunch of wands and let him buff with some spells.

This build does require getting access to wands and burns through those wands fast.


_Char wrote:


I still stand by my point - I'd rather have the option of going melee than not, but we -need- the options of a full caster.

Well, more options are always nice, but don't let an option prevent you from doing your primary job. If I need a starting pitcher, drafting a shortstop who can also play third base won't help. If I need a drummer, I shouldn't be looking at guitarists, even if they can also play clarinet.

In particular, remember that every round you're attacking in melee, you're acting as a Hammer (and therefore, you're not doing your job as either Anvil or Arm). If you swing your mace and do 1d8 +10, that really doesn't help anyone else out -- not nearly as much as it would help for the barbarian to swing his phallic symbol and do 1d12+45. Tripping the guy the barbarian's fighting will give him at least one more swing (via AoO) and possibly even more benefit from the prone debuff.

I think, for that reason, Blave's suggestion is a trap. "A more cheesy alternative would be a Paladin 2 / Sorc 3 / Dragon Desciple 4 / EK 10. Strength-Focus. Wear full plate and a shield for awesome defense. Use verbal only spells (blindness, blur, displacement) and still spell. Also uses arcane strike and power attack for high damage. In fact, [your] one-handed damage will match some characters two-handed damage. You can still be a decent god "wizard" as many battlefield control spells don't allow for saves or SR."

He's entirely missing the point. He built a hammer and that's exactly what you don't need. The party can contribute lots of damage already (and has also learned that damage alone doesn't win fights) -- you're essentially doubling down on what you already know to be a losing strategy. What that sorceror gives up in exchange is the ability to cast things like grease out of first level slots (sure, you can use Still Spell, but only out of a second-level slot), the ability to cast and move (using metamagic turns it into a full-round action), and a high enough casting DC to be able to be confident the baddie will fail his save.

In other words, you've traded the ability to be an effective Anvil, which you need, for the ability to be an ineffective (because you're never be as good as the barb) Hammer (which you didn't need anyway, since you have an abundance of them).

Kestrel had it right. "You need to make the meat you have better and safer, not add more of it."


Came back home a hour ago, I started toying with PCGen.
It's too hard to balance Wizard versatility with passive layers of defense. The Eldritch Knight has very few options.

Yeah, I know I shouldn't make unfavourable trades; sadly my old Cleric had zero options for situations where I felt like casting anything wouldn't be beneficial. My shortbow was hitting at +8 for 1d6-1 damage, what a shame for my Elven lineage, and my frail body made too dangerous aiding others :(

Oh well. The Oracle might be the right choice. Legalistic and/or Foretold, Lore as a mystery (Sidestep is bonkers! It allows me to forgo Dexterity!) and the Seer archetype. I should be able to wear armor, a shield, and do stuff.

Onwards to the Oracle guides!


For an Oracle, I'd suggest going Dual-Cursed with Deaf+Wolf-Scarred.

That gives you some awesome support revelations and Wolf-Scarred has absolutely no penalty when taken alongside Deaf.


_Char wrote:

Came back home a hour ago, I started toying with PCGen.

It's too hard to balance Wizard versatility with passive layers of defense. The Eldritch Knight has very few options.

Yeah, I know I shouldn't make unfavourable trades; sadly my old Cleric had zero options for situations where I felt like casting anything wouldn't be beneficial.

Shrug. My wizards normally carry a pack of Lucky Strikes for just such instances.

If you don't have anything to cast, delay and see if someone needs healing or status removal later. Arms make great reactive characters --- sometimes you can cure a status effect before it has any actual effect at all. ("HAH! I've blinded you!" "No, he's fixed now. And he's in your face." "Slice-stab-maul-bite-chop-mince-purée-squeeze-stir-pour_into_martini_glass !")


I'm confused. Lore has a great revelation in Sidestep Secret, but aside from being an extra SAD caster, what do you get out of it? The arm support is obvious, but what spells do you plan to take that will make you a primary anvil?

And why Seer? Nothing it grants helps you achieve your stated goals.

I agree with Kestral. Dual-Cursed is amazing, regardless of whatever curses you take.


Because I should be a revived Cleric of the forgotten God of Divination :D
No reason other than fluff. I'm currently taking a look into the tradeoffs I'd be making...

edit: EEK, no, either Seer or Lore. Not both!


Your cleric's problem was never that he was a cleric. Your problem was that you rolled stats.

A passable level 10 human heroic array battle cleric is

17 strength (15 base +2 from having between 7 and 12 hit dice)
16 dex (14 base +2 racial)
12 con
10 int
13 wis
8 cha

with at least another +2 wisdom on a headband and preferably an all physical stats belt.

Feats are spell focus conjuration, improved initiative, power attack, augment summoning, combat reflexes, and superior summons.

This doesn't go for standard action summoning, but since you've already decided your deity for story reasons it probably isn't viable. You want divine interference at level 11.

Plug higher rolls in instead of the array used for NPCs with player class levels and you're sitting pretty. Especially since if you have a rolled 15 or 16 to put in dex that isn't your high roll you can put your racial and one or both of your HD based stat boosts in strength.

Staying a cleric and just using a reach build and possibly the evangelist archetype with your new stat rolls will fit the character better than changing class. Oracle could be thematically viable, but cleric is just a better class than oracle.


I've been checking the Oracle guide, I'm stumped. Even with the limited choices my Cleric had, I still feel it was an incredibly strong character. I'm this close to starting a discussion with my DM on how to revive my poor old Elven Cleric.

Well, being the protégé of the Dead God of Divination must have its perks! I hope he foresaw my death and planned accordingly :)

In the end, it's really jarring: I get why it's such a "dangerous" class, it's one of the lynchpins of the game! Now that I think about it, the whole group has been dependant on my CLW wands, my utility scrolls and my 15 minute prayers to slot the condition removal spell we needed.

Back to a Cleric.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

I think, for that reason, Blave's suggestion is a trap. "A more cheesy alternative would be a Paladin 2 / Sorc 3 / Dragon Desciple 4 / EK 10. Strength-Focus. Wear full plate and a shield for awesome defense. Use verbal only spells (blindness, blur, displacement) and still spell. Also uses arcane strike and power attack for high damage. In fact, [your] one-handed damage will match some characters two-handed damage. You can still be a decent god "wizard" as many battlefield control spells don't allow for saves or SR."

He's entirely missing the point. He built a hammer and that's exactly what you don't need. The party can contribute lots of damage already (and has also learned that damage alone doesn't win fights) -- you're essentially doubling down on what you already know to be a losing strategy. What that sorceror gives up in exchange is the ability to cast things like grease out of first level slots (sure, you can use Still Spell, but only out of a second-level slot), the ability to cast and move (using metamagic turns it into a...

I am NOT missing the point. Check out my first post. I suggested a half-dozen characters that fit the arm/anvil-needs of the party perfectly. However, _Char had since made clear that he wanted a character that can also hold his own in melee. So I posted two EK builds that can do exaclty that. What's the point in suggesting more pure casters if he already made clear that he wants to melee as well?

The Paladin/DD one is a pretty good hammer with high defenses and half-decent arm/anvil capabilities. It's far from perfect for the role but it's still WAY better than the pure Paladin that _Char was already considering. Also, it's a more melee-heavy version of the EK. From the informations we got so far, I'd go with the caster-focused EK-build but that doesn't mean I can't show him a more frontline-version to use should he feel the need to. I don't know his group and his GM so I'm making different suggestions and let him decide which one fits best.


I still think the reach cleric(evangalist) is the Best plan. You said you have good stats so somthing like str>wis>con>dex>v ha>int, Combat reflexes at level 1, i would prefre versatile human or halforc with tattosand shamans apprentice(for sleeping in armor), get the seeker and Fates favored traits a longspear and a breastplate(pehaps Mithral), if you stay elf also get a long bow with str.
Growth subdomain Will put barkskinn on your domain list, and with extendspell you get Two of them pr day. This Will put you in a ok place when it comes to AC.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Evangelist Clerics are awesome, whether you go with a reach cleric fighter or daze channeler hangover build like my character Nefertiti above.

They bring in excellent buffs at the price of a domain, so they can be great damage multipliers.


Blave wrote:


I am NOT missing the point. [...]

Agreed: you all showed me various builds and it helped putting into perspective what I could be trading.

In the end, a "caster" Cleric is still the best solution for this party, I'll just have to be more on the ball with useful spellcasting.

FYI: he was an Elven Cleric of Savras, domains Arcane (Magic) and Fate (Luck), with a rolled stat block of 8/11/13/13/15/16. I begged the DM to allow me to be a Moon Elf from Forgotten Realms (we're playing there, afterall) to justify a +2 WIS instead of the Elven +2 INT.
Among all of our looted stuff, I took property of a mithral chainshirt and a buckler (and various wands and scrolls). So, my armor was a robust 16AC!

Now the question becomes: how do I make more survivable a STR 8 DEX 13 CON 11 Cleric which is using his Favored Class to get more skill points... I guess it's time to start pumping up those spell DCs :)

I'm starting to understand that the character that I wanted to make would've fit better as a wizard. Oh well!


i thougth you were going to remake him with the new stats.


_Char wrote:
Blave wrote:


I am NOT missing the point. [...]

Agreed: you all showed me various builds and it helped putting into perspective what I could be trading.

In the end, a "caster" Cleric is still the best solution for this party, I'll just have to be more on the ball with useful spellcasting.

FYI: he was an Elven Cleric of Savras, domains Arcane (Magic) and Fate (Luck), with a rolled stat block of 8/11/13/13/15/16. I begged the DM to allow me to be a Moon Elf from Forgotten Realms (we're playing there, afterall) to justify a +2 WIS instead of the Elven +2 INT.
Among all of our looted stuff, I took property of a mithral chainshirt and a buckler (and various wands and scrolls). So, my armor was a robust 16AC!

Now the question becomes: how do I make more survivable a STR 8 DEX 13 CON 11 Cleric which is using his Favored Class to get more skill points... I guess it's time to start pumping up those spell DCs :)

I'm starting to understand that the character that I wanted to make would've fit better as a wizard. Oh well!

I assume that you put that 15 into Charisma? It might be worth investing in Quick Channel and Reactive Healing if you haven't already. Combine that with Selective Channeling and you could burst heal the party back up when you go down. And it'd let you heal + cast in the same round to keep your summoner/eidolon and alchemist up longer without losing actions.

Additionally, since you're playing your character like wizard anyways, it's probably worth picking up a few of their tricks. See if your DM will let you swap one of your domains(probably Magic/Arcane) to Rune (or some subdomain of that). The domain powers aren't great, but you'd get Scribe Scroll for free that way. Scrolls you scribe can go a long way to boosting your longevity and help you be a little more liberal about using defensive spells proactively.

A rod of extend metamagic should be something you invest in soon - it's only 3000 gold and with Magic Vestment you could have an additional +2 AC pretty much all day for a single level 3 spell. Even without the rod, you should have 10 hours of it. You could also use it on Ant Haul to boost your carrying capacity to handle heavier armor (though it does make you a sitting duck for targeted dispels if you're wearing anything too heavy).


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Cap. Darling wrote:
i thougth you were going to remake him with the new stats.

If I'm not going to replace anything, mechanically-wise, I feel it's a bit "gamey" / "cry to the DM", I got a 18/17/16/16/11/10 this time.

Yeah, the Extend Rod is mandatory now; I already had Scribe Scroll, I was using that for useful spells I'd need once in a while, stuff like Blood Biography or Locate Object.

edit: ayup, 15 CHA. Through plot means I got a +2 INT, too! I pretty much became a wannabe Wizard as soon as I got to level 5.


I'm a little confused, so this might be off the mark.

I don't know why you think a cleric is the only thing that will do this, or even the best. I think a cleric can do the job of arm/anvil very well, but your specific party composition really cries out for a bard to me. A case could be made for a heavens oracle using Awesome Display as well, being a better anvil but worse arm.

Good Hope as a standard, Inspire Courage as a move, and Battle Cry as a swift is a nice round of win for your companions. +4 to hit and damage, +2 to all saves and a free save reroll once in the next 10 rounds is really good action economy. Between spells known and UMD you should be able to remove any conditions you need to, though you may have to plan ahead better and invest more than a cleric would. Things like Charm Monster, Confusion, Fear, Hold Person, Blindness/Deafness, Glitterdust and so on will disable foes if you build it like a caster rather than a generalist.


_Char wrote:
My shortbow was hitting at +8 for 1d6-1 damage, what a shame for my Elven lineage, and my frail body made too dangerous aiding others :(

Make that bow count!

1) Get a Whetstone and add 1 damage to those non-magical arrows. [Costs 2 cp and time.]

2) Get some Tangleshot arrows. Touch attack, and they get entangled even when they save. [Costs 20gp each.]

/cevah


Gregory Connolly wrote:

I'm a little confused, so this might be off the mark.

I don't know why you think a cleric is the only thing that will do this, or even the best.

Remove blindness/deafness. Remove Curse. Remove Disease. Lesser Restoration. Restoration. Neutralize Poison. If you're not awash in scrolls someone needs to be able to cast them. There is only one non-cleric that can cast them all in a timely manner and only with a specific build option and it's not bard.


Atarlost wrote:
Gregory Connolly wrote:

I'm a little confused, so this might be off the mark.

I don't know why you think a cleric is the only thing that will do this, or even the best.

Remove blindness/deafness. Remove Curse. Remove Disease. Lesser Restoration. Restoration. Neutralize Poison. If you're not awash in scrolls someone needs to be able to cast them. There is only one non-cleric that can cast them all in a timely manner and only with a specific build option and it's not bard.

That would be an Alchemist, or a Witch with the Healing Patron.

A standard Witch would loose the [lesser] restoration only.

/cevah


_Char wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
i thougth you were going to remake him with the new stats.

If I'm not going to replace anything, mechanically-wise, I feel it's a bit "gamey" / "cry to the DM", I got a 18/17/16/16/11/10 this time.

Yeah, the Extend Rod is mandatory now; I already had Scribe Scroll, I was using that for useful spells I'd need once in a while, stuff like Blood Biography or Locate Object.

edit: ayup, 15 CHA. Through plot means I got a +2 INT, too! I pretty much became a wannabe Wizard as soon as I got to level 5.

I dont really undestand what you are saying here. But i think you should talk with the GM about what you would like the character to be able to do, (have melee precence pehaps?) and use the trip to the halls of the dead as a excuse for a rebuilt with the evangalist archtype. He will come back remade in body and mind with a clear purpose just like if he have had meet his dead god in the after life, he May not remember but it feels like it happend.

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