Swashbuckler Weapon Advice


Advice

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This question originated from my want to play a daring champion cavalier, yet, I still need some clarification. What are the pros and cons of using the following weapons for a swashbuckler?

Rapier, and everything else

Why would people use other weapons than a rapier?


Weapons other than the rapier tend to be one of the following:

-Whip: reach. Reach is very valuable
-Sawtooth Sabres: Most straightforward way to build Dex-based TWF
-Katana: +1 damage per swing
-Falcata: Best crit range in the game
-Unarmed Strike: Huge feat selection. Snake Style is particularly awesome and makes them piercing.

Rapier's edge over those is that it's easy. All of those are exotic weapons. Further, for the Swashbuckler in particular, Inspired Blade makes the rapier even more advantageous.


Okay, so, let's say one was to make a Daring Champion Cavalier. What weapons would be better fitted for the archetype?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

basically rapier is cheap and pretty good, all the other weapons require way more feats to use.


Thank you for the clarification guys. Much appreciated. :)


Nullyrian wrote:
Okay, so, let's say one was to make a Daring Champion Cavalier. What weapons would be better fitted for the archetype?

All of those?

I'm not a fan of Unarmed Strike, but one can build a Daring Champion to use any of the above. It depends on what you're intending to do.

TWF? Sawtooth Sabres
Support/Control build? Whip
Baseline panache-centric build? Rapier or katana
The above, but sacrificing a little panache for damage? Falcata
Niche build using one of the massive number of feat chains only unarmed strikes can do? Well... only got one choice.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:
Nullyrian wrote:
Okay, so, let's say one was to make a Daring Champion Cavalier. What weapons would be better fitted for the archetype?

All of those?

I'm not a fan of Unarmed Strike

unarmed strikes allows you to have a free hand and two-weapon fight.

precise strike wrote:
To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.

but GMs may go either way.


*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.

Grand Lodge

Are you looking for Dex to Damage?

The Rapier is nice, with Fencing Grace, but with Slashing Grace, any One-handed Slashing weapon could be your choice weapon.

Cutlass, Scimitar, Terbutje, and multiple others are fine.

Racial proficiencies change the dynamic too.


Estoc from Melee Toolkit, 2d4 Dmg (piercing) 18-20 x2 crit works with all the Swashbuckler abilities.


Play a Paladin, Barbarian or Ranger.

Call yourself a Swashbuckler :P


The Spine Flail is probably the best swashbuckler weapon out there.

One Handed Slashing weapon usable at reach and adjacent.

Takes Slashing Grace to make it work, but that's a pretty small price to pay really.


Gamerskum wrote:
Estoc from Melee Toolkit, 2d4 Dmg (piercing) 18-20 x2 crit works with all the Swashbuckler abilities.

Can you get dex to damage with that one?


Cap. Darling wrote:
Gamerskum wrote:
Estoc from Melee Toolkit, 2d4 Dmg (piercing) 18-20 x2 crit works with all the Swashbuckler abilities.
Can you get dex to damage with that one?

No; the estoc is a good Daring Champion weapon, but it is good for strength builds (which are a totally acceptable way to play the class).

The best Swashbuckler weapon, as sad as it is, is still the scimitar/cutlass. It has the same feat cost as the rapier and slashing is a better damage type than piercing.


You can put Agile on it to get Dex to damage.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.

why though? fists are already subpar and cost twice as much, and this only gives a bonus to damage not to-hit.


Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.
why though? fists are already subpar and cost twice as much, and this only gives a bonus to damage not to-hit.

Pehaps because it seems like the intention is clear. And it seems silly to make unarmed strike the best option for swashbucklers?


Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.
why though? fists are already subpar and cost twice as much, and this only gives a bonus to damage not to-hit.

Because the language of Precise Strike is to preclude attacking with your other hand. I can't understand a world in which punching somebody is not attacking with your other hand.

*Shrug* I also read "other hand" as "off hand", which pretty much precludes that one entirely. You want to TWF, the Daring Champion is already one of the strongest classes in the game for it. Abusing linguistics to try to eke out more damage strikes me as the sort of queso even I don't like.


A little shout-out to the iron claw; for the price of EWP you get Improved Disarm without having to pay for Combat Expertise first, and when you don't want to disarm something it's your buckler. Also it's rad as hell.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.
why though? fists are already subpar and cost twice as much, and this only gives a bonus to damage not to-hit.

Because the language of Precise Strike is to preclude attacking with your other hand. I can't understand a world in which punching somebody is not attacking with your other hand.

*Shrug* I also read "other hand" as "off hand", which pretty much precludes that one entirely. You want to TWF, the Daring Champion is already one of the strongest classes in the game for it. Abusing linguistics to try to eke out more damage strikes me as the sort of queso even I don't like.

meh it still comes out worse than a barbarian or a ranger with a bow, so i'm fine with it. what's the worse thing that can happen, swashbuckler get's out of bottom tier?


Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.
why though? fists are already subpar and cost twice as much, and this only gives a bonus to damage not to-hit.

Because the language of Precise Strike is to preclude attacking with your other hand. I can't understand a world in which punching somebody is not attacking with your other hand.

*Shrug* I also read "other hand" as "off hand", which pretty much precludes that one entirely. You want to TWF, the Daring Champion is already one of the strongest classes in the game for it. Abusing linguistics to try to eke out more damage strikes me as the sort of queso even I don't like.

meh it still comes out worse than a barbarian or a ranger with a bow, so i'm fine with it. what's the worse thing that can happen, swashbuckler get's out of bottom tier?

If swashbuckler need a fix, in your home game. Better fix them with a bit of flavor, in stead of reading the rules to make unarmed strike the ideal swashbuckler weapon.


Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.
why though? fists are already subpar and cost twice as much, and this only gives a bonus to damage not to-hit.

Because the language of Precise Strike is to preclude attacking with your other hand. I can't understand a world in which punching somebody is not attacking with your other hand.

*Shrug* I also read "other hand" as "off hand", which pretty much precludes that one entirely. You want to TWF, the Daring Champion is already one of the strongest classes in the game for it. Abusing linguistics to try to eke out more damage strikes me as the sort of queso even I don't like.

meh it still comes out worse than a barbarian or a ranger with a bow, so i'm fine with it. what's the worse thing that can happen, swashbuckler get's out of bottom tier?

It might come out worse for the Swashbuckler-- I've never checked the numbers for them because I lost any desire to play the Swash when the ACG came out and I saw that the Daring Champion was a better Inigo Montoya.

But a TWF Daring Champion can already outdamage a Barbarian, once he hits the back half of the levels so all his pieces are in order.

Let's reiterate that: without access to Precise Strike, the Daring Champion Cavalier can do more damage than your standard Barbarian. Full-on AM BARBARIAN packing in Leadership to get his mount can probably still take him, but any sort of legal version? Nope.

So if they can do that without Precise Strike, what incentive do I have to give them access to Precise Strike + Challenge + TWF, exactly?

Sovereign Court

kestral287 wrote:

Weapons other than the rapier tend to be one of the following:

-Whip: reach. Reach is very valuable
-Sawtooth Sabres: Most straightforward way to build Dex-based TWF
-Katana: +1 damage per swing
-Falcata: Best crit range in the game
-Unarmed Strike: Huge feat selection. Snake Style is particularly awesome and makes them piercing.

Rapier's edge over those is that it's easy. All of those are exotic weapons. Further, for the Swashbuckler in particular, Inspired Blade makes the rapier even more advantageous.

As to Sawtoothed Sabre - if you're going Dex-TWF - you shouldn't go Daring Champ. You should dip into Swash and then into a different class entirely.

For the Falcata - while normally an excellent choice - it's not very good for the Daring Champ. Much of their damage comes from Precise Strike, and that doesn't multiply on a crit, so much of the x3 goes to waste. Therefore, you'd be better off sticking to a 18-20x2 weapon to recharge your panache faster.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Cap. Darling wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.
why though? fists are already subpar and cost twice as much, and this only gives a bonus to damage not to-hit.

Because the language of Precise Strike is to preclude attacking with your other hand. I can't understand a world in which punching somebody is not attacking with your other hand.

*Shrug* I also read "other hand" as "off hand", which pretty much precludes that one entirely. You want to TWF, the Daring Champion is already one of the strongest classes in the game for it. Abusing linguistics to try to eke out more damage strikes me as the sort of queso even I don't like.

meh it still comes out worse than a barbarian or a ranger with a bow, so i'm fine with it. what's the worse thing that can happen, swashbuckler get's out of bottom tier?
If swashbuckler need a fix, in your home game. Better fix them with a bit of flavor, in stead of reading the rules to make unarmed strike the ideal swashbuckler weapon.

they don't need a fix, i'm just saying when people complain certain melee feels like it's doing something weird and broken or gamey that ultimately it's still less than standard things, like a bard that can haste the party.


Cap. Darling wrote:
Gamerskum wrote:
Estoc from Melee Toolkit, 2d4 Dmg (piercing) 18-20 x2 crit works with all the Swashbuckler abilities.
Can you get dex to damage with that one?

Besides using an agile weapon, only way I can think of with current rules is the Whirling Dervish swashbuckler archetype.


A Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid will grant you an exotic weapon proficiency for 1500 gp.

That opens up an awful lot of builds.

Effortless Lace is also particularly for Swashbucklers.

The combination of those two things can let a swashbuckler use an Oversized Flying Claw. That can be pretty fun.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

I like estocs, I might look it up if i even get to play a swashbuckler.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Doomed Hero wrote:


Effortless Lace is also particularly for Swashbucklers.

The combination of those two things can let a swashbuckler use an Oversized Flying Claw. That can be pretty fun.

i'm sorry but doesn't the weapon need to be properly sized for you? lace only reduces the penalty.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

Weapons other than the rapier tend to be one of the following:

-Whip: reach. Reach is very valuable
-Sawtooth Sabres: Most straightforward way to build Dex-based TWF
-Katana: +1 damage per swing
-Falcata: Best crit range in the game
-Unarmed Strike: Huge feat selection. Snake Style is particularly awesome and makes them piercing.

Rapier's edge over those is that it's easy. All of those are exotic weapons. Further, for the Swashbuckler in particular, Inspired Blade makes the rapier even more advantageous.

As to Sawtoothed Sabre - if you're going Dex-TWF - you shouldn't go Daring Champ. You should dip into Swash and then into a different class entirely.

For the Falcata - while normally an excellent choice - it's not very good for the Daring Champ. Much of their damage comes from Precise Strike, and that doesn't multiply on a crit, so much of the x3 goes to waste. Therefore, you'd be better off sticking to a 18-20x2 weapon to recharge your panache faster.

What different class should you be going into than Daring Champion, who has one of the highest static damage bonuses in the game? Slayer's an option, but that's about it and the difference in their static bonuses is low enough (assuming Order of the Dragon, +1 to hit for the Champion with a bonus +6 to-hit for the entire party versus +6 average damage for the Slayer) that it ultimately comes down to player choice in which one they feel is easier to trigger.

And Challenge is multiplied on a crit, so the falcata can still do nice damage. I agree it's not as nice for them as it is for some classes, but it does add a solid chunk of damage.

Bandw2 wrote:
they don't need a fix, i'm just saying when people complain certain melee feels like it's doing something weird and broken or gamey that ultimately it's still less than standard things, like a bard that can haste the party.

What level would you like me to run the numbers at for this? 7? 11? 20?

How much of WBL can I devote to weapons? 25%? 33%? 50%?

Do you have a Barbarian build for me to test against?

Alternately: have you actually run numbers to verify that a Daring Champion adding double-level-to-damage is outclassed by a Barbarian? 'Cause I ran those numbers without Precise Strike once upon a time and the Champion came out ahead.

'Cause you're wrong, but your response to me saying "No, I have run the numbers and you're wrong" was to repeat your statement in a more condescending fashion, so now I'm going to ask you to either provide the numbers or do your part so that when I do it we're all on the same page about exactly what numbers were run.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

@kestral, the unchained barbarian i hear is a good option for TWFing

(static bonuses to melee instead of strength makes it better the more attacks you throw out, and it ignores your handing, so light weapons still get +2)

edit: just realized you challenged me, I specifically said a bard would be a better option than a swashbuckler(and earlier a barbarian is better than a swashbuckler), I still haven't had a chance to look at a daring champion in detail.

but if you want to do it for fun (it'll let me look at daring champion) 10th level, 50%, the barbarian is hasted (because of the aforementioned bard), for funzies just make it 1 level of swash and 9 unchained barbarian levels versus daring champion. see if they both do TWFing well.


Ah. You misunderstand my point.

I'm not talking about TWF Daring Champion vs. TWF Barbarian.

TWF Champion vs. the best Barbarian you have that isn't AM BARBARIAN's "I'm mounted on a Synthesist" shenanigans (though I mean, I could apply a cohort to the Champion... but it's gonna do a lot more than the Synthesist)


Bandw2 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:


Effortless Lace is also particularly for Swashbucklers.

The combination of those two things can let a swashbuckler use an Oversized Flying Claw. That can be pretty fun.

i'm sorry but doesn't the weapon need to be properly sized for you? lace only reduces the penalty.

I don't remember seeing that, but you could be right.


It does need to be properly sized. Effortless Lace is awesome for Daring Champions/Swashbucklers, but not for using oversized weapons-- it's turning weapons Light (and thus TWFable) that's a big deal for them.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Doomed Hero wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:


Effortless Lace is also particularly for Swashbucklers.

The combination of those two things can let a swashbuckler use an Oversized Flying Claw. That can be pretty fun.

i'm sorry but doesn't the weapon need to be properly sized for you? lace only reduces the penalty.

I don't remember seeing that, but you could be right.

I actually looekd around a bit, I can't find anything relating to size, just wielding in one-hand, so a light weapon could become a one-handed easily enough, not sure on the benefits though.

Scarab Sages

kestral287 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
*Shrug* Good luck finding a GM to allow that one. I would never advise trying it, personally, because I know I wouldn't allow it.
why though? fists are already subpar and cost twice as much, and this only gives a bonus to damage not to-hit.

Because the language of Precise Strike is to preclude attacking with your other hand. I can't understand a world in which punching somebody is not attacking with your other hand.

*Shrug* I also read "other hand" as "off hand", which pretty much precludes that one entirely. You want to TWF, the Daring Champion is already one of the strongest classes in the game for it. Abusing linguistics to try to eke out more damage strikes me as the sort of queso even I don't like.

Unarmed strikes are not punches. They can be punches, kicks, or head-butts. You can TWF with two unarmed strikes and never throw a punch or have anything in your off hand.

They also have as good of a crit rate as the rapier if using pummeling style. You can use both pummeling style and do piercing damage via weapon versatility without taking the MoMS dip as well.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

only a monk's unarmed strike(and brawler i think) mention being able to do headbutts and the like. :P


As I said: I read "other hand" as "off-hand", so that's a moot point-- in point of fact, if you're that dedicated to the concept that you want to do the whole 'different weapons on different iterative attacks' thing, I'll totally let you punch with that hand and keep Precise Strike. Or you can use a claw and keep Precise Strike even (though why you would want to is beyond me, but hey). But I'm not going to let you TWF with it, because the moment you do that you're attacking with a weapon in your off hand. Even if that weapon is a kick, you are using your off hand.

And really... once I say "I'm not okay with this because this is a very strong martial class and I'm not going to let a player cheese its damage harder by beating up on the linguistics of the word in", what makes you think I'd suddenly be okay with it because the player says "no no, it's a kick, not a punch"?


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

also while double your class level to damage (i'm guessing that's what you're doing) seems pretty nice, you're not getting many to-hit modifiers and still have a horrid will save.

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:
only a monk's unarmed strike(and brawler i think) mention being able to do headbutts and the like. :P

The combat chapter defines unarmed strikes as a punch, kick, or headbutt. The monk class just has a reminder of that, not an exception.

CRB Pg. 182 wrote:
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

aw yes i'm thinking of elbows and knees


Bandw2 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:


Effortless Lace is also particularly for Swashbucklers.

The combination of those two things can let a swashbuckler use an Oversized Flying Claw. That can be pretty fun.

i'm sorry but doesn't the weapon need to be properly sized for you? lace only reduces the penalty.

I don't remember seeing that, but you could be right.

I actually looekd around a bit, I can't find anything relating to size, just wielding in one-hand, so a light weapon could become a one-handed easily enough, not sure on the benefits though.

Basically it means you can up the damage dice for Light weapons. That's not super great, but still pretty good for the cost.


The Daring Champion

Fastine Dangerous, Human Daring Champion 10 (Order of the Dragon)
20 point buy:
Str: 10
Dex: 24 (16+ 2race+ 2levels+4belt)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Feats:
1: Two-Weapon Fighting
1: Improved Unarmed Strike
3: Snake Style
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7: Chain Challenge
9: Pummeling Style

Tactician feats: Paired Opportunists, Outflank

Weapon & other gear: Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (16,000/31,000 gold spent)
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4*

While under Challenge&Haste: IUS+21/IUS+21/IUS+21/IUS+16/IUS+16. Each hit deals 1D3+19+10 precision. Due to Pummeling Style his crits are odd, but his chance of landing at least one critical threat is 22.6%. Because Pummeling Style crit confirmation math is a royal pain, I'm going to assume crits are auto-confirmed-- the same benefit will be extended to the Barbarian, of course.

Fastine has four challenges per day and Chain Challenge, so he can be assumed to have it active in every fight.

A CR8 creature has an AC of 21, a CR10 24, and a CR12 27.
Thus, against a CR8, Fastine has a 95%/80% hit rate, dropping to 90%/65% for the CR10 and 75%/50% for the CR12.

Average full attack/single attack:
CR8: 161.703/30/5
CR10: 147.753/28.95
CR12: 124.503/24.3

With Outflank in play, which he can deliver to allies, this jumps significantly:
CR8: 171.003/30.5
CR10: 164.803/30.5
CR12: 149.303/30.5

AoOs/counters come really easy to Fastine, so it's probably safe to assume he's landing a single hit each round, unless he feels his opponent is going to die anyway (since his counters use up immediate actions, which he'd like to save to keep Chain Challenge rolling).

This is somewhat incomplete, in that ideally we'd have the numbers of his flanking partner for Outflank, and really for his entire party to determine how much of a damage buff Order of the Dragon is. But it'll do for now.

Note that this is not particularly optimized: this was the work of thirty minutes and built largely out of my head, barring the WBL chart and of course the actual math. Plenty of options abound, like dropping Pummeling Style for Improved Critical and making wealth room (not hard) for a Helm of the Mammoth Lord, and even slotting in Adopted (Razortusk) becomes a real option. Going forward with this setup, though, Improved Critical is the next obvious feat to push him up to a 41% crit rate.

*The +4 item is normally something I'd call a bit of a stretch at 10th without a crafter once we've decided to spend 50% of money on weaponry, but Fastine is nowhere near capping out his designated weapon budget (the next AoMF is 32,000; he had a 31,000 budget so he can't afford that) so he can afford to spend here. For the Barbarian I'm going to assume a +2 belt, with the ability to increase it with money left over from his weapon.

Bandw2 wrote:
also while double your class level to damage (i'm guessing that's what you're doing) seems pretty nice, you're not getting many to-hit modifiers and still have a horrid will save.

Will is a problem, but Fastine here has a lot of room to bring it up (no dumped stat even though he has basically no need for Str, for the immediate example). To-hit, hilariously, isn't: Fastine is frequently in 'only miss on a 1' territory for his primary, especially with Outflank. Does Order of the Dragon rock? Yes it does. At the end-game, a TWFing Order of the Dragon is actually equal in accuracy to a Barbarian, assuming equal base stats and before Power Attack. With Power Attack factored in, we're looking at the Barbarian swinging at BAB+base Str -1 for +11 damage, where our Cavalier swings at BAB+Dex+1 for +20 damage-- and swings almost twice as often. The weapon will twist that a bit, but going +2 Furious (I'm not seeing an offensive use for Courageous until the weapon is already +2 Furious unless we're dropping 30k ioun stones or are consistently under Heroism) means that we start to look like this:

Barbarian: Base+3, +15
Cavalier: Base+3, +22

Weapon die differences will probably close that gap by 3.5 points with a nodachi, and feats to add another +4 to +6 aren't unreasonable (by all means, throw some feat picks at me). But that still leaves the Barbarian fighting up a weaker crit range and getting one less primary and one less secondary attack each round.

The Barbarian has his advantages, mind: Pounce, Flight if he wants it, saves, etc. But let's not pretend that TWF with double-level-to-damage is somehow weak enough that we should allow massive rules cheesing to make it work.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Doomed Hero wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:


Effortless Lace is also particularly for Swashbucklers.

The combination of those two things can let a swashbuckler use an Oversized Flying Claw. That can be pretty fun.

i'm sorry but doesn't the weapon need to be properly sized for you? lace only reduces the penalty.

I don't remember seeing that, but you could be right.

I actually looekd around a bit, I can't find anything relating to size, just wielding in one-hand, so a light weapon could become a one-handed easily enough, not sure on the benefits though.
Basically it means you can up the damage dice for Light weapons. That's not super great, but still pretty good for the cost.

yep but it's only still finesse-able if it is piercing, or you can take any one-handed weapon and make it finesse-able.

Scarab Sages

Weapon Versatility is great for changing the damage type of a weapon when needed.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

does an order of the dragon grant the attack bonus to himself? I know in general you are your own ally, but it does seem RAI is for only your allies and not you.

Also, pummeling style and snake style at the same time?

also, i said an unchained TWFing barbarian, with pounce probably as soon as he can get it, which is 10. which nets him 2 claw attacks (which are at -5 and half dex mod of course) that he's using since he's unarmed.

i'll come back later when i'm not at work and run the numbers on the unchained barbarian.

but he'd have about the same stats but swap charisma to wisdom.

but if you could it would have an amulet with +1 and agile.
better do it this way
1:weapon finesse
1:unarmed strike
3: two-weapon fighting
5: piranha strike
7: improved TWF
9: Pummeling Style(just for the crazy crit goodness)
if your crazy like me, I'd go for dragon style instead of pummeling and 11th level would be monk so you don't have off-hands, yes I allow dexterity to do crazy things with feat investment. but this isn't rules legal so i'll leave it out XD

actually might go dragon style just to ignore difficult terrain on charge...

rage powers: beasties totems(3 in total), accurate stance, and supersticious.

this gives him pounce with TWFing and 2 claw attacks, accurate stance gives him +3 competance to melee attack rolls.

meaning something like +21 to hit and +16 to-damage while raging
TWF moves it to +19 to-hit, and off-hands get +9 to damage. if hasted add +1 to-hit obviously.

I think anyway

Scarab Sages

Bandw2 wrote:


Also, pummeling style and snake style at the same time?

While this is an issue, you can easily change Snake Style to Weapon Versatility or Hamatulatsu, which both change US damage type to piercing and both are not style feats, so can be used with pummeling style.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:


Also, pummeling style and snake style at the same time?
While this is an issue, you can easily change Snake Style to Weapon Versatility or Hamatulatsu, which both change US damage type to piercing and both are not style feats, so can be used with pummeling style.

then he requires weapon focus. and he's down a feat(probably combat reflexes, but then he can't parry for days).

also i don;t thin kestral's calculations have off-hand unarmed strikes doing half-damage, unless he got a level of monk somewhere, that should be happening.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i want to play my barbarian now...


Bandw2 wrote:

does an order of the dragon grant the attack bonus to himself? I know in general you are your own ally, but it does seem RAI is for only your allies and not you.

Also, pummeling style and snake style at the same time?

also, i said an unchained TWFing barbarian, with pounce probably as soon as he can get it, which is 10. which nets him 2 claw attacks (which are at -5 and half dex mod of course) that he's using since he's unarmed.

i'll come back later when i'm not at work and run the numbers on the unchained barbarian.

but he'd have about the same stats but swap charisma to wisdom.

but if you could it would have an amulet with +1 and agile.
better do it this way
1:weapon finesse
1:unarmed strike
3: two-weapon fighting
5: piranha strike
7: improved TWF
9: Pummeling Style(just for the crazy crit goodness)

rage powers: beasties totems(3 in total), accurate stance, and supersticious.

this gives him pounce with TWFing and 2 claw attacks, accurate stance gives him +3 competance to melee attack rolls.

... See, I knew I'd make a stupid mistake building in my head. Hamatulatsu Strike or Weapon Versatility over Snake Style, basically the same result-- needs room for Weapon Focus but that's doable-- Combat Reflexes is far from necessary. That actually frees up enough Panache and Swift/Immediate Actions that burning some on the damage-boost becomes viable too. Alternately dip Monk to make room, but that's cheating even if it would be obnoxiously effective for this.

"You are your own ally" seems rather applicable to Order of the Dragon. If not, there are other Orders that grant accuracy, but I've never seen anyone question that for Dragon before.

I did forget Agile though, so knock one off the hit/damage there. Minimal damage change though, since the hit will be counterbalanced by Weapon Focus.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
kestral287 wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:

does an order of the dragon grant the attack bonus to himself? I know in general you are your own ally, but it does seem RAI is for only your allies and not you.

Also, pummeling style and snake style at the same time?

also, i said an unchained TWFing barbarian, with pounce probably as soon as he can get it, which is 10. which nets him 2 claw attacks (which are at -5 and half dex mod of course) that he's using since he's unarmed.

i'll come back later when i'm not at work and run the numbers on the unchained barbarian.

but he'd have about the same stats but swap charisma to wisdom.

but if you could it would have an amulet with +1 and agile.
better do it this way
1:weapon finesse
1:unarmed strike
3: two-weapon fighting
5: piranha strike
7: improved TWF
9: Pummeling Style(just for the crazy crit goodness)

rage powers: beasties totems(3 in total), accurate stance, and supersticious.

this gives him pounce with TWFing and 2 claw attacks, accurate stance gives him +3 competance to melee attack rolls.

... See, I knew I'd make a stupid mistake building in my head. Hamatulatsu Strike or Weapon Versatility over Snake Style, basically the same result-- needs room for Weapon Focus but that's doable-- Combat Reflexes is far from necessary. That actually frees up enough Panache and Swift/Immediate Actions that burning some on the damage-boost becomes viable too. Alternately dip Monk to make room, but that's cheating even if it would be obnoxiously effective for this.

"You are your own ally" seems rather applicable to Order of the Dragon. If not, there are other Orders that grant accuracy, but I've never seen anyone question that for Dragon before.

I did forget Agile though, so knock one off the hit/damage there. Minimal damage change though, since the hit will be counterbalanced by Weapon Focus.

I'd have actually played a cavalier by this point if i knew dragon style worked on yourself. I always disliked their lack of accuracy buffs on cool fluff orders. liked the fluff of dragon order but felt it was meh if you only have like 1 other melee in the group.

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