Double Crossbow / Vital Strike abilities: Dump 'em on me!


Advice

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The Exchange

I want some ranged Vital Strike and Double Crossbow abilities and feats because my build could do with a boost. Dump 'em on me!
I am not very experienced with making crossbow-ers, but I've had my eye on the Double Crossbow for a while. Currently I've worked out that the best is an Eldritch Guardian Fighter 2 / Bolt Ace Gunslinger 11 / Crossbowman Fighter X.

I do this because I can use Bullseye Shot to negate the penalty of using a double crossbow while my familiar reloads it (really good vs casters for spell disruption).
At level 13, I can reload my own crossbow, then equip my familiar with a Light Crossbow and take the teamwork feat Target of Opportunity.

I can elaborate on the build if you want.

The Exchange

*bump*


I'm not dure what your mean with eldircth fighter 1/gubslinger 11/crossbowman fighter x again. Your can't be fighter twice with different archtypes. You could be a fighter with 2 archtypes if they are compatible, but that's different. A Fighter XY lvl 8 is not the same tgan a fightr X lvl 3/fighter Y lvl 5


I'm not sure what else you need besides Bolt Ace, really, and the ranged feats don't have a lot of variation:

Precise Shot is key--get this as soon as possible.
You'll probably want Deadly Aim and Point Blank Master (especially if you're using your move action to reload: enemies will close on you).

If you're doing a Vital Strike variation, you don't need Rapid Shot, but with a crossbow, you'll need Rapid Reload anyway.

If you have a decent Int, you can try Focused Shot to add your Int to damage.

If you can cast Gravity Bow, that should stack pretty well with Vital Strike.

You'll need to double check your familar's strength, though: some GMs might rule that your familiar is not strong enough to load a crossbow.


Possibly Weapon Specialization (+2 to static damage is never bad, though it works better if you can make lots of attacks with it, which won't always be the case with Vital Shot builds).

Certainly Improved Critical for the crossbow (19-20 crit range to 17-20 crit range).

Scarab Sages

Honestly, I'd dump the bolt ace from a double-crossbow vital strike build. Bolt Ace is for allowing you to capitalize on full attacks with a crossbow, which is counter to one big attack.

You also cannot go Eldritch Guardian 2 and Crossbowman x. They are both fighter archetypes, you can't multiclass fighter/fighter. However you can take both Eldritch Guardian and Crossbowman, as they don't have any overlapping replacements.

For this build, I'd go Fighter 7/Sniper Rogue x. Deadshot allows all readied shots to deny dex to AC, thus allowing Sneak Attack.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe Ranger with Crossbow style? Gravity bow and Vital Strike synergizes rather well. Improved Critical.


The extra damage dice from Vital Strike do not multiply on a critical hit, so Improved Critical becomes much less useful.

If you're investing in the Vital Strike tree, the best option I've seen is pick up a level of barbarian (Unchained barbarian actually works for a ranged fighter) so you can grab the Furious Finish feat: end your rage to maximize your damage dice.


Improved Critical still increases the chance of an extra damage die, plus doubling (in this case) all the static bonuses, which ought to be pretty significant.

The Exchange

Gustavo Igelsias / Imbicatus: Yeah it ends up as "[Eldritch Guardian, Crossbowman] Fighter." I wrote it like that because Crossbowman doesn't replace anything before level 2, and Eldritch Guardian doesn't replace anything after level 2.

Gwen: That familiar restriction I didn't think of because I was planning my char to have 5-7 STR. My familiar can't have less than 4, right? Anyway I just thought I needed to make sure it had hands.

Tonyz: Thanks for the improved crit suggestion. I didn't think of that. It's great because Bolt Ace increases the crit modifier by x2. Weapon Specialization is better than you think because a Double Crossbow is actually two bolts.

Imbicatus: If I run this build without Vital Strike (I tried it), it turns out as an inferior archer.

I'm also looking for Weapon Enchantments that will go particularly well on a Double Crossbow (such as elemental enchantments)

I was trying to get a Familiar because the Double Crossbow requires two move actions to reload (one with Crossbow Mastery) but I wanted it to take no move actions, so I dump those actions to my Familiar.

Maybe a GM could let you take the Squire feat instead (like Leadership but not broken)


Seeking would go very well with a weapon where you're trying to do one big shot -- don't want to miss your Vital Strike thanks to blur or displacement or other miss chances.

Sonic is the best elemental damage to have because almost nobody resists it.

Bane or holy would both be very good if you are regularly fighting evil foes, or foes of one type (or both!)

Other than that, stack on the +1, +2, +3... etc. Better chance to hit, extra static damage. They always work.


Also... "Minotaur double crossbow" if your GM allows it. if you survive to permanent touch attacks at lvl 11.... yeah, go with that one

The Exchange

Zodiac107 wrote:
Also... "Minotaur double crossbow" if your GM allows it. if you survive to permanent touch attacks at lvl 11.... yeah, go with that one

Minotaur Double Crossbow is actually (almost or exactly) the same wording as the Double Crossbow in the Adventurers' Armoury. Text was updated in the Advanced Players' Guide to include its interaction with Crossbow Mastery.

Anyway, I had a closer look at the gunslinger deeds (thanks for that advice Imbicatus) and found that few of them work with Vital Strike after level 5, so I'm changing it to Fighter 2 / Gunslinger 5 / Fighter X.
Is there an other class archetypes that would be good? My favourite would be something that applies to each shot.
I was hoping to go Arcane Archer, but alas it only works for bows.

I did a DPA (one attack per round) calc at level 12, and it came out as +21, 2*(3d8+12.5) = 34.86 vs AC 27 with a +2 crossbow. Pretty low damage, but this guy can ready actions to do it.

The Exchange

I'm thinking Inquisitor would be a good class to take instead of the later Fighter levels

Scarab Sages

Actually Alchemist is pretty good. Explosive Missile, Alchemical Ammunition, and so on.

The Exchange

Unfortunately Explosive Missile can't be used with Vital Strike.
I don't know what Alchemical Ammunition is, perhaps you meant Alchemical Firearm Cartridges?

Scarab Sages

No, I meant the various alchemical arrows from the alchemy manual. You can see a list here.

The Exchange

Are you allowed to nock alchemical arrows in to a crossbow?
I don't think so, but I don't own the alchemy manual so it might says something about that.

This is for PFS, by the way

Scarab Sages

Yes, the alchemy manual allows you to create alchemical version of any ammunition. You can have alchemical bolts, shuriken, and so on.

Also, while the explosive missile is out, the Grenadier archetype allows you to add an alchemical weapon to ammunition that can be combined with vital strike.

The Exchange

Thanks for the advice, but none of those seem useful enough for a loss of BAB (which means no IVS), unless there's a way to reduce the move action application to a swift or less?


I think Ranger has a lot to offer here. The natural weapon combat style gives out Weapon Focus at 2nd, Vital Strike at 6th and Improved Vital Strike at 10th. Grasping Strike and Winter's Strike add free action riders on your Vital Strikes. I think Faerie's Strike is supposed to work the same way but the language seems to have been cut for word count.

A one level dip in Barbarian (Unchained, Urban, or Savage Technologist) can get you Furious Finish.

Devastating Strike can add more damage that multiplies on a critical.

There are actually more Vital Strike options than you can fit in on most builds.


Covert Operator wrote:
Gwen: That familiar restriction I didn't think of because I was planning my char to have 5-7 STR. My familiar can't have less than 4, right? Anyway I just thought I needed to make sure it had hands.

A medium-sized double crossbow weighs 18 pounds. You have to be able to hold it/manipulate it, along with whatever else you're carrying (and 10 crossbow bolts weigh 1 pound). I'd probably say you could easily manipulate items in your medium carrying capacity range, but I'd at least apply penalties for trying to manipulate something you can barely carry. (The encumbrance rules don't cover this area specifically, so you'll need to ask your GM.)

The standard monkey familiar is tiny (1/2 normal carrying capacity) with a 3 strength, so its maximum carrying capacity is 15 lbs. (That's the only familiar I see on the main list that has opposable thumbs, so you might need to get an improved familiar.)

And if your own strength is 7* as a medium creature, you'll have a light load of 23 lbs, and 19 of that is just your weapon and 10 bolts. If you get into medium load, you can only add +3 from your Dex bonus to AC; if you are heavily encumbered, you only get +1 AC from your Dex, no matter how high it is.

*If you're going for a 5 strength, you'll need to start with a race that has a strength penalty, like a halfling (small) or a kitsune (medium). The halfling would probably be better from an encumbrance perspective, but the damage dice from you weapon would be lower, and Gravity Bow wouldn't work anywhere near as well.

The Exchange

Gwen Smith wrote:
Covert Operator wrote:
Gwen: That familiar restriction I didn't think of because I was planning my char to have 5-7 STR. My familiar can't have less than 4, right? Anyway I just thought I needed to make sure it had hands.

A medium-sized double crossbow weighs 18 pounds. You have to be able to hold it/manipulate it, along with whatever else you're carrying (and 10 crossbow bolts weigh 1 pound). I'd probably say you could easily manipulate items in your medium carrying capacity range, but I'd at least apply penalties for trying to manipulate something you can barely carry. (The encumbrance rules don't cover this area specifically, so you'll need to ask your GM.)

The standard monkey familiar is tiny (1/2 normal carrying capacity) with a 3 strength, so its maximum carrying capacity is 15 lbs. (That's the only familiar I see on the main list that has opposable thumbs, so you might need to get an improved familiar.)

And if your own strength is 7* as a medium creature, you'll have a light load of 23 lbs, and 19 of that is just your weapon and 10 bolts. If you get into medium load, you can only add +3 from your Dex bonus to AC; if you are heavily encumbered, you only get +1 AC from your Dex, no matter how high it is.

*If you're going for a 5 strength, you'll need to start with a race that has a strength penalty, like a halfling (small) or a kitsune (medium). The halfling would probably be better from an encumbrance perspective, but the damage dice from you weapon would be lower, and Gravity Bow wouldn't work anywhere near as well.

Yeah, I think I'll be a half-elf for Ancestral Arms. I will have to buy mule back cords or something, and have Mithral/Darkwood everything. I was hoping Kitsune could get proficiency, but alas the Double Crossbow is neither a sword-like weapon nor an eastern weapon.


tonyz wrote:
Improved Critical still increases the chance of an extra damage die, plus doubling (in this case) all the static bonuses, which ought to be pretty significant.

I did a quick 10th level build (22 Dex), that came out to +11 attack (+15 with Bullseye Shot)/1d8+14 damage (with Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim and a +1 crossbow), plus 1d8 Vital strike. I used the Gunslinger's x3 critical multiplier, too.

The base average damage per round came out to 32.0 per round. Adding one feat adjusts the DPR as follows:
- With Improved Critical: 36.5 DPR
- With Weapon Focus: 34.7 DPR
- With Reckless Aim: 37.4 DPR

With Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, you get 37.8 DPR.

So if DPR is what you're after...
If you only have one open feat, take Reckless Aim.
If you have two open feats, take Weapon Focus and then Weapon Specialization (once you get your 4th fighter level).

In the long run, though, you're probably going to want to grab Extra Grit multiple times because you'll be burning through grit to target touch AC and/or to ignore cover/concealment. (Once you get to 11th level, you can take Improved Precise Shot, but you'll have to be useful while you get there.)

The Exchange

It's not DPR I'm after, it's mostly disrupting spellcasting, and not having to full attack, while doing decent damage. I also just wanted to see if I could make it viable.

The Exchange

Gwen Smith wrote:
tonyz wrote:
Improved Critical still increases the chance of an extra damage die, plus doubling (in this case) all the static bonuses, which ought to be pretty significant.

I did a quick 10th level build (22 Dex), that came out to +11 attack (+15 with Bullseye Shot)/1d8+14 damage (with Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim and a +1 crossbow), plus 1d8 Vital strike. I used the Gunslinger's x3 critical multiplier, too.

The base average damage per round came out to 32.0 per round. Adding one feat adjusts the DPR as follows:
- With Improved Critical: 36.5 DPR
- With Weapon Focus: 34.7 DPR
- With Reckless Aim: 37.4 DPR

With Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, you get 37.8 DPR.

So if DPR is what you're after...
If you only have one open feat, take Reckless Aim.
If you have two open feats, take Weapon Focus and then Weapon Specialization (once you get your 4th fighter level).

In the long run, though, you're probably going to want to grab Extra Grit multiple times because you'll be burning through grit to target touch AC and/or to ignore cover/concealment. (Once you get to 11th level, you can take Improved Precise Shot, but you'll have to be useful while you get there.)

I don't know how your attack bonus is so low; I've got more in the range or +15-20 depending on feat choices.

Attack: 10 BAB +6 DEX +1 Fighter WT +1 enhancement
Damage: 2*(1d8 base +1d8 IVS +9 [DEX*1.5] +1 Fighter WF +2 Devastating Strike)

With +1 Crossbow, Devastating Strike, 22 DEX

I was thinking I'd need extra grit a few times but then I realized crits give you more Grit so I just took Improved Critical.

I don't think I even need Improved Precise Shot, what with the Gunslinger ability that is the same thing but costs grit.

The Exchange

I've roughly finalized the build. My goals (after the obvious ones) were to get as many damage bonuses as I could so I could multiply them by two with the Double Crossbow's two bolts. I'm thinking of replacing my level 9/11 (lol) bonus feats with Weapon Focus/Specialization or Reckless Aim.

Half-Elf Fighter 2 (Eldritch Guardian, Crossbowman) / Gunslinger 5 (Bolt Ace) / Fighter
1R-Ancestral Arms: Double Crossbow
1—Rapid Reload: Double Crossbow
3—Point-Blank Shot
5—Precise Shot
6B-Vital Strike
7—Bullseye Shot
7C-Dex to damage and x2 crit mod
8C-1/2 DEX to damage on readied actions
9—Improved Critical
9B-Deadly Aim
11-Improved Vital Strike
11B Disruptive Shot (not the best feat. Devastating Strike instead?)

Armor: [Mithral] Kikko (3030 gp, +5 AC, max dex +6, 12.5 lbs.
[Darkwood] Heavy Shield
Weapon: +X Seeking > Thundering [Darkwood] Double Crossbow
Magic needed: Carrying Capacity
Wanted: Gravity Bow [oil?]


I didn't calculate the DPR so it could probably be better, but I had the thought to try and go the other way. Perhaps it might be better to shoot the crossbow 6 times/round. So I quick built for that.

Half-Elf Monk (Sohei) 6/Gunslinger (Bolt Ace) 5
1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Double Crossbow, Rapid Reload: Double Crossbow, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge
2 Combat Reflexes
3 Point Blank Shot
4 -
5 Rapid Shot
6 Improved Disarm
7 Crossbow Mastery
8 -
9 Improved Critical: Double Crossbow
10 Critical Focus
11 Bleeding Critical

Key Equipment: Gloves of Dueling, Boots of Speed, Double Crossbow

The Exchange

Gregory Connolly wrote:
6 attack/round build

No precise shot in there.

You can't take Guns as your weapon training.
How are you reloading as a free action? Crossbow Mastery only reduces it to a move action.
I tried to make multiple attacks work, but it just doesn't without another body to reload for you.


It does lack Precise Shot

9 Precise Shot
10 Improved Critical: Double Crossbow
11 Improved Precise Shot

That would fix the aiming problems mostly. Crossbow Mastery lets you reload any type of crossbow as a free action. You take crossbows as your weapon training, which lets you flurry with them. You can also benefit from Rapid Shot and Haste which gets you to 6 attacks at 11th.

The Exchange



Make one attack roll. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.
Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not.
Loading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a single move action.

That's why I was doing Vital Strike. The unmentioned upside of using the Double Crossbow instead of other crossbows is because this one has no penalty for wielding it one-handed (probably an oversight).


Why Vital Strike? Bolt Ace gives you the Dead Shot Deed which is like having all the Vital Strike Feats Plus rolling one crit can make all of your Dead Shot dice crit. Which combines greatly with the Bracers of Falcon Aim and the Crit multiplier increase from Bolt Ace. Only downside i can see is the Full Attack action, which shouldn't be too much trouble.

Another note is that the Deadshot feature from Crossbow fighter won't stack with Crossbow Mastery (Unless there's something i missed).

Huge fan of the Double Crossbow, I'd suggest some Named Bullet Shenanigans with Dead Shot.

The Exchange

jwtelesio wrote:
Why Vital Strike? Bolt Ace gives you the Dead Shot Deed which is like having all the Vital Strike Feats Plus rolling one crit can make all of your Dead Shot dice crit. Which combines greatly with the Bracers of Falcon Aim and the Crit multiplier increase from Bolt Ace. Only downside i can see is the Full Attack action, which shouldn't be too much trouble.

Well, Dead Shot isn't at all like Vital Strike. It's exactly the same as Pummeling Style, but ranged and therefore worse. The reason it's worse is because you have to be able to reload as a free action to actually use it.

jwtelesio wrote:
Another note is that the Deadshot feature from Crossbow fighter won't stack with Crossbow Mastery (Unless there's something i missed).

If you're talking about using a full-attack action precluding a readied action, then yes you are right in that respect.

What you missed is that I'm not taking Crossbow Mastery because it has a Rapid Shot prerequisite (which I didn't specifically say, but it's not in my build above)
jwtelesio wrote:
Huge fan of the Double Crossbow, I'd suggest some Named Bullet Shenanigans with Dead Shot.

Named Bullet actually does seem useful at first glance (if you can make bolts instead), but I would need to load two Named Bolts, which kills that route.

I think you've misunderstood my build. I use Vital Strike as a readied action with a Double Crossbow, and my Familiar reloads it. It's for disrupting spellcasting.


Guess I got too excited about Double Crossbows.

For Crossbow Mastery I meant the Bolt Ace Feature that adds Dex to damage which most likely wouldn't work with the Crossbowman .5 dex to damage.

If you're just talking about trying to interrupt spell-casting then I suppose there isn't really anything to add then.

The Exchange

I think I'll pick a Compsognathus familiar, which grants a +4 to Initiative and has 8 STR, so no-one can argue that he can't load a crossbow.

I need to know its weight because I'll be carrying it.


Covert Operator wrote:

I think I'll pick a Compsognathus familiar, which grants a +4 to Initiative and has 8 STR, so no-one can argue that he can't load a crossbow.

I need to know its weight because I'll be carrying it.

Well I guess if movie magic can make raptors open doors, I suppose it could let their little cousins with no opposable thumbs somehow manipulate crossbow bolts.

The Exchange

EmberKin wrote:
Covert Operator wrote:

I think I'll pick a Compsognathus familiar, which grants a +4 to Initiative and has 8 STR, so no-one can argue that he can't load a crossbow.

I need to know its weight because I'll be carrying it.

Well I guess if movie magic can make raptors open doors, I suppose it could let their little cousins with no opposable thumbs somehow manipulate crossbow bolts.

wat, they don't have opposable thumbs? B-b-but Jurassic Park! Intelligent Raptors!

I'll have to pick something else then...

The Exchange

jwtelesio wrote:

Guess I got too excited about Double Crossbows.

For Crossbow Mastery I meant the Bolt Ace Feature that adds Dex to damage which most likely wouldn't work with the Crossbowman .5 dex to damage.

If you're just talking about trying to interrupt spell-casting then I suppose there isn't really anything to add then.

Well I don't know. It's always been controversy on whether you can add an ability mod more than once.

AFAIK, everyone agreed it was legal, but then JJ said you can't use Fury's Fall + Weapon Finesse because you can't add Dex twice.
However, the Bolt Ace feature does, in fact, say "a bonus equal to your Dex mod" so I'm inclined to say yes. I agree, it's definitely a controversial point.


Not sure how the math works out for damage off the top of my head, but a few levels of investigator and the ranged study feat could be worthwhile.


The -4 to hit even if proficient does seem to make it a poor weapon choice for a multiple attack build. So either you use a heavy crossbow with crossbow mastery and make a dead shot/flurry/rapid shot type build or end up dealing with a weapon you can't get to a free action reload.

I'm not sure a familiar is the best way to reload the thing. Have you considered getting quick draw and carrying multiple crossbows? It would be fairly ridiculous, but I can't see anything in the rules to prevent it. I have run into a lot of table variation with things like handing someone a wand, you might run into the same kind of variations having someone else load your weapon.

The Exchange

Well I would need a pretty good STR or an expensive Handy Haversack in order to carry all them 18 lb, 300 gp crossbows.

I came up with that idea with a hand-crossbow rogue, but as a joke.
I just can't take that idea seriously. sorry.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

pRetty much the consensus is you can't add the same type of bonus from a stat twice.

So, you can't add Cha to saves twice, but you could add Cha to saves and a Sacred bonus to saves = to Cha bonus.

Thus, your untyped Dex bonus to damage does not stack, above. You'd get the better of the two.

Remember that familiars get intelligent as you go up in level.

Monkeys have opposable thumbs.

==Aelryinth

The Exchange

so an untyped bonus = Dex doesn't stack with a Dex bonus, but a typed bonus = Dex does?

I was thinking of going Inquisitor instead anyway...


Completely off topic: I want to know how you managed to bump your thread before it was posted? o.O

The Exchange

First post was on Thursday, bump was on Friday.


If you're keen on vital striking with a crossbow, I'd take at least 7 levels of Crossbowman followed with (or just mixed with as you level) something with full sneak attack progression. Unchained Rogue would be a good option here, but there's also Vivisectionist to consider.

Then I'd get wands of gravity bow to really up the vital strike damage.

The 7th level ability denies a target their dex bonus on any readied shot, so every turn you can just ready a vital strike and roll sneak attack pretty reliably. Make sure to get Sniper Goggles so you can bypass the 30ft rule.

With all those fighter levels, I doubt you'd need a familiar to reload your crossbow either. I never really went the crossbow route but I'm pretty sure you can knock reloading to a free action with some feats.


Just a thought not pertaining to damage.

Instead of going for a familiar, how about going for an animal companion? You could dip into ranger 4 and grab a baboon. It's small, never gets bigger, and starts out with a 12 Str. Teach it a trick and off you go. Instant reloader.

The Exchange

Thanks for those suggestions. I wanted to avoid going ranger if I don't have to, and yes I see its the 3rd-4th best class available.

The awesome thing about Eldritch Guardian is that I transfer my combat feats to my familiar. So instead of my baboon or whatever reloading as standard and me reloading as move, my familiar reloads as two move actions with me free to spend my move action on moving or Bullseye Shot.

I also wanted to avoid Sneak Attacks because precision damage isn't multiplied by the crossbow or vital strike. I thought that applying Dex to damage 1.5x would be more effective because its doubled.

That Fighter/Rogue build is a cool one, but it fits better with Slavers' Crossbows or plain ol' Light Crossbows. You can't get Double Crossbow reloading down to a free action, but you can do it with swift+move with tons of investment, but I just chose what's effectively a free action by having someone else (i.e. familiar) do the reloading.


Covert Operator wrote:
It's not DPR I'm after, it's mostly disrupting spellcasting, and not having to full attack, while doing decent damage. I also just wanted to see if I could make it viable.

Ah, if you want to disrupt spellcasters, see if you can pick Disrupting Shot and/or get Distracting on your crossbow.

A Distracting crossbow with bleed arrows will force any caster to make a concentration check every round (16+spell level) for 1 minute or until they get healed (that's in addition to any other concentration checks they have to make).

And the beauty of that trick is it's easy to do with whatever build you have.

(I have a Zen Archer who carries more trick arrows than Hawkeye and Green Arrow combined.)

The Exchange

I thought Disrupting Shot was good for a while, then I realized all it does is increase effective damage by 4. There are multiple feats that increase actual damage by 4.

The Distracting property and Bleed arrows are exactly what I was looking for, though. Thanks!

I don't think it's possible to have more arrows than G.A. He's got an aqua lung arrow, helicopter-mirror arrow, fake duck sound arrow, and bubblegum arrow! I think he has a satellite dish arrow too.

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