Alignment advice....


Advice


I'm sure people hate these...but I'm having a hard time pinning down the alignment for a character, and could use some advice ;)

Character is for the Hell's Rebel's AP.

Character is Chelish, with the following trait...
Lost Nobility: Your family was prominent before the rise of Thrune, but that legacy is now forgotten by all but you. You hold every Chelish government official (including Hellknights) personally responsible for your lost glory.

and drawback....
Tainted Spirit: When you were a child, a parent or other person with authority over you made a minor pact
with a fiend on your behalf, stealing some of your vitality in exchange for a minor boon.

Character is a Pact Wizard, his pact is with a Cabal Devil (LE), that has been bound to his family for generations..so basically they are "stuck with each other" due to the pact his uncle put into play when he was a child.
He knows that she will try and influence him towards evil thus damning him...but is fully intent on using the teaching she gives him to gain revenge on House Thrune.

I am thinking LN....but I'm not sure I can rationalize being lawful...when I'm going against Thrune...

Thoughts ?


Why would going against Thrune make you non-Lawful? Lawful does not mean you follow all laws.


Rynjin wrote:
Why would going against Thrune make you non-Lawful? Lawful does not mean you follow all laws.

Even if your native Chelaxian ?


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nighttree wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Why would going against Thrune make you non-Lawful? Lawful does not mean you follow all laws.
Even if your native Chelaxian ?

...Yes.

Lawful literally has nothing to do with "following the current government" or "no participating in revolutions".

You're not trying to make an anarchy here, you're tearing down the corrupt government to make way for a new one.

Grand Lodge

You can also look at it as you are trying to end this silly rebellion (ok, it has been going on forever) and restore the rightful rulers (you).

In the end, I would suggest N or LN. Not that it really matters, you could go CG as a rebeliousness against this being you were bound to by your uncle.

Or embrace it, go LE (if allowed) and enjoy the devil bound to you.


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What are your characters goals? What is he willing to do to achieve these goals? Those are the questions you need to answer to figure out your alignment.

It sounds like you want to overthrow the hose of Thrune and replace it with your own. Are you doing this for the good of the people of Cheliax, or are you only interested in your own power? Also what do you intend to do once you have come into power. If you are trying to overthrow the house of Thrune so you can save the people from evil that has overtaken Cheliax then you would probably be neutral or maybe even good. If on the other hand you simply intend to replace the house of Thrune with your own house and still keep all the devil worship you are more than likely evil.

What methods will you employ to defeat the house Thrune? Are you using any means necessary to undermine the state regardless of who it affects? Or do you work through the system subtly undermining the enemy? Do you operate openly in opposition to the house of Thrune, or do you try to appear loyal while waiting for your chance to gain control. The last part of the puzzle is, are you working mostly by yourself or with a few chosen, or do you have lots of allies that are working together? If most of your actions follow the first examples then you are probably more chaotic, if you follow mostly the second examples you are more lawful. If you are evenly split you are neutral.

Keep in mind that lawful evil characters are usually fairly loyal to those in their own group. They have no problem betraying people outside their group if there are no consequences. Also lower members may be expected to sacrifice themselves for their superiors.

From what you have said I would say your character is probably Lawful Evil.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i would have to agree, you can be lawful and partake in a revolution, I still hold it generally chaotic(but only if your end goal is a revolution) but if your character is honor bound by something else or in general you would be lawful if not for the personal grudge you could be lawful. but if your character has no reason to be lawful then why make him lawful?


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I think you are a diabloist in nature with this character. You could easilly be LN, LE, or NE depending on the tone or choices you make. LN is resisting Hells influence, LE is following Hells ways, and NE is the revenge driven brat who does whatever it takes.


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Key points relating to your character...


  • Family (uncle) follows diabolical ways, even at your expense (evil, selfish, follows the rules to achieve his goal)
  • Forced into the pact by family - not own choice (rule of law imposed)
  • Society system would expect you to continue with this pact (Societal/Thrune law)
  • You are afraid/concerned you will be influenced towards evil (tendency to reject evil ways - alignment shift away from evil)
  • You are afraid you may be damned (does not welcome this - shift away from evil)
  • Seeks revenge on House Thrune for 'lost glory' (you haven't go what you wanted and seek to punish those you blame - selfish/desire to hurt = evil tendency)
  • You appear to want to punish them rather than leave it to the rule of law (take the law into your own hands = chaotic/independent tendencies)
  • Happy to use the 'diabolical teachings' to achieve these aims (reliance on the lawful/evil systems already in place)

Assessment
Your character is brought up in, and still tends to abide by the LE tendencies and approach to the world. Nevertheless, there is a stirring within his being, rising up within him to reject the choices of his elders and betters. To be independent. To be judge and executioner in his own right.

He is currently borderline LE. His own thinking may be pulling him towards a more Chaotic/Independent approach rather than following the ways and methods available to him in the society around him. He's likely becoming out of step and acting 'beyond his station' in the scheme of things. He may be challenging/questioning his own position as a Pact Wizard. His choice is to either keep his status and powers, or to rebel and create his own rules about how things should be done.

Liberty's Edge

My rules for choosing alignment :

Lawful vs Chaotic : What is the character's usual first reaction to outside legitimate authority ? (legitimate according to the rules he grew up with)

Follows = Lawful
Rejects = Chaotic
Considers what benefits him the most = Neutral

Good vs Evil : What is the character's first reaction to innocent creatures being hurt ?

Acts to protect = Good
Wishes he could protect but does nothing = Neutral
Does not care, or even does harm to them = Evil

So, your character could be Lawful in my game if he was raised by his family to see House Thrune as usurpers withholding power from its rightful owners (i.e., the old noble houses). AND if he usually behaves as proper/ordered to by a traditional / legitimate authority (i.e., definitely not Thrune in this worldview).

Note that he would very likely try to uphold the letter of the current law, as open disregard for any legal structure (even if he does not agree with it) is uncomfortable to any Lawful character IMO.


Lawful does not necessitate following The Law. It means following a personal code! This code might be identical, or have a great overlap with The Law.

Or might lead to direct conflict with The Law when they are diametrically opposed, like if someone "dishonored you" by calling you a coward, and the only way to expunge this is by personally spilling his blood (think of a Viking/Barbarian code). Its just that you reside in a civilised peaceful trading post on the Inner Sea.

"Axe to the head" to behave lawful alignmentwise, yet doing an unlawful act penal-code-wise.


He's remaining loyal to his family and its traditions. Without anything much contradicting this (no, conflict with another organisation isn't enough) that says Lawful to me.

His goals and means sound Evil to me.

Either of these could be negated or changed by more character detail I know nothing of, but just going by what's above, LE.


One non game way of looking at it is the classic "monster mirror" scenario. When your character looks into a mirror what does he see? This answer will easilly guide you to your answer. If he sees a monster with a purpose and a code LE fits well. If he is just an @$$ then NE and so on.


Some VERY helpful points made above, thank you all very much for that.

At the beginning of play, I think he will definitely fall into the LN alignment....but as many of you pointed out, he's more or less already at the tipping point towards LE.

He more or less identifies "evil" as House Thrune...but more because of what's been done to his family, and how he's been raised to see them...not out of any real moral/ethical distinction between their actions and his own. His family did (when they where still influential)take the tact that they where "controlling" devils for their own....implied different... ends...but much of his attitude towards Thrune is based more on getting revenge, and regaining the power and authority he feels was his birthright....that was stolen from him as House Thrune rose to power.

He of course want's to see himself as "better than" house Thrune, both in his motives, and his actions...especially as he has lived a life of both poverty due to Thrune more or less demolishing his family holdings, and general abuse (he has Proteus syndrome, so many people are at least uncomfortable around him)in the culture.

But I don't think he really knows just what he's willing to do in the long run to achieve his goals.

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