Ok so I have a few questions about the synthesist.
1.) If you are an elf (or other creature that does not sleep) can you have your eidolon active always?
2.) Natural attack/manufactured attack. I am looking for a hard ALWAYS to this rule not a "generally" Natural attacks do not benefit from iterative attacks. Is this ALWAYS? Example is case is the synthesist. You do have class levels though you use the eidolons BAB, does that matter for possible iterative natural attacks? Lets assume bite, claw claw. For example when you hit level 7 you would be at +6 or +6/+1
A.(bite/claw/claw) or would it be
B.(bite/claw/claw+bite/claw/claw)?
From what I have seen its generally A. When is it not? Special monster ability that says so? (i.e. dragons bite always 1*5 str)
I am just trying to really nail this down and I haven't so far found a hard answer to what I am looking for. And I run across old (~5 years) threads that may or may not be relevant still as they were working with the first and second printing. Let me know if some of this did not make sense. I'm sure most of it doesnt haha
3.) Manufactured + Natural atk. Lets assume bab of +6 again. 2 arms (with hands, lets say both hands have short swords) +2 arms (claws) and bite. Looking at a 4 armed biped with a bite. With me? I am unsure of the penalties or if you require both multi attack and multi weapon feats to not get dumped on for penalties. I think at least multi weapon for the second "armed" attack End result: sword/sword + sword/sword/claw/claw/bite
Is this correct? Can I get some help with the penalties and feat(s) needed to minimize penalties. I have DM approval to take monster feats.
4.) As a synth and you are melded do you still have your limbs? As in if you chose aquatic base do you keep your legs and arms? Or do you "lose" your legs and arms and only have whatever appendages the base form (plus whatever evolutions) has? Another example is a biped. 2 arms and 2 legs. Would you end up with 4 arms and 4 legs or still 2 arms and 2 legs?
5.) Saves. Not sure if I missed it or not. Do you use only your saves? Only the eidolons? Or a mixture? Eidolon for fort and ref and yours for will? The third makes the most sense to me as physically, you are the eidolon but mentally you are the summoner. Which are good/bad? As in if the eidolon has good fort/ref and the summoner has good will are all 3 good?
6.) If you take weapon proficiency evolutions to martial are you considered proficient now? Im sure that burning a feat would be a better choice but I am curious if possible. I feel that you would be, as you can take skill buffs and I have read elsewhere that you get the skill buffs as long as you are melded
7.) Im sure I will have more. But for now this is all I have. Thanks!
1.) Elves do not have the ability to avoid sleep in this game. That was not an ability that was carried over. I am pretty sure the trance thing is intellectual property of Wizards of the Coast, since it was never part of the open game liscence material like the explicitly statted abilities.
I am pretty sure the only paizo thing referencing trance was made for 3.5
If you had a race that doesn't sleep- yes, you could stay melded all the time.
4.) Nope. You are only limited to the physical abilities of the eidolon. If you pick a form without arms, adn you do not spend evo points to get arms, then no arms for you. And thus no somatic spells for you.
That is what you trade for the ability to get up to 32 arms (assuming biped half elf with the favored class option and spending ALL your points into arms). Not that 32 arms would be a smart thing...at all.
3. You need Multiweapon Fighting to use weapons in three or more arms
This is incorrect. You can always use weapons in three or more arms but face huge penalties to hit. Multiweapon Fighting mitigates this penalty the same way Two-Weapon Fighting does it for two-armed combatants.
Most of the abilities that grant additional arms like the Vestigial one from the Alchemist have to explicitly state that that arm cannot wield weapons.
Awesome great answers guys thanks a lot. So here is a review
1.) I should read the book and not assume things about races (duh)
2.) So its just iterative attacks with manufactured weps then all your nat attacks (assuming you dont go over the limit)
3.)-
4.) The only limbs you have are what your eidelon has only, yours are not included at all
5.) Use your saves but the physical side is augmented with the eidelon stats
6.) Yes you can do that
7.) As for the synth I am all set. I have other questions that I will start a new thread for as they are unrelated
Thanks again!
3. You need Multiweapon Fighting to use weapons in three or more armsThis is incorrect. You can always use weapons in three or more arms but face huge penalties to hit. Multiweapon Fighting mitigates this penalty the same way Two-Weapon Fighting does it for two-armed combatants.
Most of the abilities that grant additional arms like the Vestigial one from the Alchemist have to explicitly state that that arm cannot wield weapons.
Fair, I should have said "you need Multiweapon Fighting to use weapons in three or more arms and not suck", but the point got across well enough. I mean, does anyone actually TWF without the feat?
So I have done some research and I will add more to this. I believe that multi attack and multi weapon can be used in conjunction.
Example) All things will be considered with both feats for this section. Total 2 hands (two longswords*) and 4 claws and 1 bite. I BELIEVE it should look like this, assuming full attack action: Longsword -4/-4, claw -2/-2/-2/-2, bite -2
Since all attacks are secondary when manufactured are involved multi attack should apply. I do not see why not. Alternatively you could also use just 1 manufactured weapon and skip the multiweapon feat and use it with no penalty, assuming proficiency.
* I used longswords because multi weapon feat didnt make any mention of light weapons. I dont know if that would be needed or not.
EDIT I did the penalties wrong for the 2 long sword attacks wrong initially. They are correct now and it looks like you would be able to benefit from using light weapons as per twf
Different note, a great monster was found for me that provides how manufactured weapons and natural attacks should work, The Mythic Marilith
With that I realize it has multiweapon mastery (which I will not have access to...rightfully so) But it breaks down attacks which is great
5. You use your own saves, but your Fort and Ref saves will be modified to use the Eidolon's Con and Dex stats
I was thinking, do you have any source material for this? It seems like it should be the Eidolons physical base saves augmented by the ability modifier. Why would yours be used? By fusing the eidolon shouldnt get a weaker fort save by losing its base saves. Since your are physically the eidolon and mentally the caster.
Actually, ignore all that. I am purposefully keeping it there so that others can see my thought process and find this conclusion. The next sentence of that would have been doesnt a dominated monster get its saves? Then I thought that doesnt seem applicable...how about magic jar?
Magic jar specifically states that you use your base saves and its KIND OF the same situation so this spell is not the be all end all for this. For example magic jar says that you use YOUR base saves and the synthesist part states you use the eidolons base. So I can see it going either way. Unless someone has a better point?
PS I feel proud of myself using links and quotes the proper way. Never done that before. Makes it much prettier.
Also, are there any feats that remove the .5 STR on secondary attacks? Similar to what you can do with two weapon fighting?
The synth mentions nothing about gaining saves, it only says you get to use the BAB. That leaves using your own saves. The ability tells you what you get to do, what abilities outside the norm you have access to. If it doesn't say use the saves, you don't get to use the saves of the eidolon.
If you want to use the saves you need to provide a quote to indicate you have access to use them. Not ask others to provide rules quotes saying you can't.
Check magic jar. The effects are almost identical (except all the soul stuff). Thats my reference material.
Hello. I am the DM in this immersion campaign. I own all the source material and allow it all, even 3rd party publishing. Having this much freedom in choices for players results in unusual combinations or playing with things that, "no DM in their right mind would allow this".
These questions were not born of disagreement between player and DM. I often look through the message boards to help me narrow down, in which of the 100+ books I own and have read (+ all hero lab capabilities) where an obscure rule may lie or the writer's possible RAI instead of the RAW I see in front of me. This is for my personal growth as a DM and to keep my mind open instead of just immediately house ruling something into the ground. In fact, the description of the thread is "This forum is for questions and answers about the rules of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. House rules, variants and conversions should be posted in the appropriate Community Content forum." not "Come here and post quotes that already answer the question you have."
One of the things I liked about the forum here is that some of the posters do so well in explaining the 'why' something is a certain way rather than stating house rules or stating, "because it just is". So I directed my player to ask the questions here to see if, through the knowledge of the community, I may have been missing a key sentence or paragraph in some far off supplement that makes the norm different.
For the Synthesist, I have only found information in the following sources: (Please let me know if I am missing any valuable sources)
-Advanced Player's Guide: Summoner
-Ultimate Magic: Summoner - Synthesist (Archetype)
-Pathfinder Unchained: Summoner (Different Rulings)
Fused Eidolon:
"A synthesist summons the essence of a powerful outsider to meld with his own being. The synthesist wears the eidolon like translucent, living armor. The eidolon mimics all of the synthesist's movements, and the synthesist perceives through the eidolon's senses and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature. The synthesist directs all of the eidolon's actions while fused, perceives through its sense, and speaks through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, but retains his own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma. The synthesist gains the eidolon's hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is killed and sent back to its home lane. The synthesist uses the eidolon's base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon's armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills of feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist. The eidolon must have limbs for the synthesist to cast spells with somatic components. The eidolon's temporary hit points can be restored with the rejuvenate eidolon spell.
While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor. He counts both as his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one creature. The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear, except for his armor. In all other cases, this ability functions as the summoner's normal eidolon ability (for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monter ability while the eidolon is present). The ability replaces the class's eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond."
So we are to understand that RAW (Italics): Because saves are not listed, that the eidolon's saves for physical saves are not used?
But because no where in the sources I have read listed above, does it explicitly state that saves are NOT used that MAYBE RAI (Bold): The saves were not thought of and it makes sense that since the two are the same creature that you would meld the mental (summoner) with the physical (eidolon).
Also, The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon's special abilities and the eidolon's evolutions.
Yes, the Synthesist would get weapon proficiency evolutions while wearing his eidolon. RAW.
Yes, the RAW is very clear there: you don't use the Eidolon's saves.
You can argue the RAI until you're blue in the face. Frankly, I highly doubt that it's RAI to use the Eidolon's saves. Pazio considers three good saves to be on a pretty high pedestal, and the Summoner already has a good Will. While the Eidolon's saves, even at good, aren't quite as good as a PC's... they're still a straight upgrade. Quadruped is typically considered the best Eidolon form already; it really doesn't need the further boost of giving the already-powerful Synth a +3 to two of its only weak points.
But you're the DM. Run it how you wish. I can tell you the RAW, and I can explain why running it the other way is a mistake, but you're free to ignore the RAW if you like.
Excellent answer. Thank you for your knowledge on possibly why saves were left out. I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any sources for RAW and possible reasoning behind RAI before I made any definitive decisions.
You need to remember that PFRPG is an exception based rule set. That means they state the general rules on what you can do, then other abilities state other things you can do that may go against the general rules.
Any time you find yourself going "maybe they forgot to say xyz" you are basically opening up a huge can of worms, because that isn't how the rules work. Very rarely to they say "you can't do this" as if that were the norm, the rules books would be like encyclopedias and require degrees to decipher. It is usually due to flavor text that leads to these discussions, but again, that is flavor not meant to be taken as mechanics, but a description of what the mechanics are doing concept wise. If you find yourself asking "maybe they forgot" do yourself the favor of reminding yourself "exception based rule set" and save the effort and go with what it does tell you you can do.