Divine Hunter weapons

[Bwang]

i am currently unable to access my books and got stumped on the Divine Hunter's weapons. The online resources I rely on do not mention any variance to the core Paladin, so I'm good with it. One of my players-to-be is insisting that she has seen something altering the core class. Personally, her arguments make sense, the plate and shield Pally just doesn't fit with the sneaking through the woods concept.

Is she right and my search skills stink or not. The thoughts of others will be helpful.

[Bob Bob Bob]

We're talking the paladin archetype from here, right? No, it doesn't change weapon proficiencies. Why would it? They already get all simple and martial, that covers all of the best ranged weapons. Also, the fluff is not "sneaking through the woods". The fluff is "rains arrows down on their enemies before they can reach their allies".

Did you perhaps mean the Hunter class and this Divine Hunter? Because that one doesn't alter weapon proficiencies either, as it's just the religious version of the base Hunter.

Now, if your player is trying to take the Hunter archetype on the Paladin... you may need to have a talk with them.

[Entryhazard]

Why not check it out yourself?

Anyway the Divine Hunter Paladin is limited to Medium armor. He can use any martial weapon but must select a ranged weapon as Divine Bond

Yet I still don't get what are you asking

[Bwang]

Hmmm...

Never post without proof reading.

First, she wants a CG elf version that can smite via her bow. She has played the toe to toe Pally before and wants the other benefits of the class.

Second, I hadn't noticed there was a second archetype of the same name! Ack!

Third, my search skills are fighting against several penalties: taxi ride, ticket line, lack of skill with a iPhone plus, just to name the most annoying. I was looking for any possible errata or correction before I pass this to the players for their comments. I told her to find it before the next game and it might wind up as a Campaign Rule anyway.

[Blackpowder Witch]

Bwang wrote:

Hmmm...

Never post without proof reading.

First, she wants a CG elf version that can smite via her bow. She has played the toe to toe Pally before and wants the other benefits of the class.

Second, I hadn't noticed there was a second archetype of the same name! Ack!

Third, my search skills are fighting against several penalties: taxi ride, ticket line, lack of skill with a iPhone plus, just to name the most annoying. I was looking for any possible errata or correction before I pass this to the players for their comments. I told her to find it before the next game and it might wind up as a Campaign Rule anyway.

Unlike other versions of DnD, there's nothing stopping a baseline Pathfinder Pally from Smiting with a ranged weapon. If you're okay with opening up Paladins to Alignments other than LG your player should be okay. Though the Divine Hunter Pally Archetype does come with a few perks that help out a backline paladin.

[Blackpowder Witch]

Ah, your player may be thinking about the old Gods and Magic book. There's a mention that Paladins of Erastil can Smite Evil with ranged weapon attacks. However, that book was intended for 3.5 DnD and predates the Core Pathfinder ruleset, so that line doesn't really matter any more.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Yeah, Smite already works with a bow. It's one of the better ways to do it. The divine hunter is generally worse than the vanilla paladin unless you're running an all ranged party (who for some reason did not take any ranged feats). You know what, divine hunter is just worse.

If the player wants a CG paladin show them the cavalier, specifically the luring cavalier (for ranged). Cavalier is basically the alignment-free paladin (for its own alignment and what it can "smite").

[Snowblind]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

Yeah, Smite already works with a bow. It's one of the better ways to do it. The divine hunter is generally worse than the vanilla paladin unless you're running an all ranged party (who for some reason did not take any ranged feats). You know what, divine hunter is just worse.

Eh, it trades out the aura of X abilities, a mercy, heavy armor proficiency and restricts divine bond to a bow in exchange for precise shot, ranged lay on hands and some miscellaneous junk.

For a feat starved character with really good saves who will probably end up using mithril breastplate it isn't an unreasonable trade.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So, first off, I was thinking of Holy Gun (the one that replaces smite with "spend a grit point to gain smite on a single attack") for the utterly worthless ranged paladin archetype.

That being said, let's see what Divine Hunter loses.
Trades Heavy Armor proficiency for Precise Shot. Good trade on someone who cranks Dex.
Trades Immunity to Fear (and bonus to allies) to give allies Precise Shot if you hit a target and your allies are within 10 feet of you. So as I said, good for a ranged party who clusters up... who for some reason don't have precise shot of their own. Might help a spellcaster? They usually can't afford the feats.
Divine Bond is a lateral change (no mount, but if you took weapon it was already going to be your bow).
Trades the mercy for ranged lay on hands, probably a wash (less self-healing, better other healing).
Trades immunity to Charm (situational) for not providing cover to ranged attacks... if you're within 10 feet of the paladin (even more situational). So melee archers only? I mean, this is really narrow and a weaker version of Improved Precise Shot (which comes in 3 levels).
Trades the ability to pass out Smite for the ability to grant all allies within 10 feet Deadly Aim, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot. So, again, only useful if your allies could do ranged but for some reason don't have the feats for it. On the other hand, Aura of Justice lets all of your allies Smite however they want. I cannot emphasize enough how @#$%^&* awesome the vanilla version is.
Changes the bonus to bypass DR from the target being within 10 feet of you to allies within 10 feet of you making ranged attacks. Also restricts it to ranged weapons (regular version works on all weapons). Probably a good change for the archetype but strictly worse for the paladin themself.

So, in summation, exactly what I remember. Trading for precise shot is good. Everything else seems to focus on buffing allies for ranged attacks... with feats that ranged characters should already have. And you have to cluster up on the paladin constantly (also known as "fireball formation"). So might be good in a dex-heavy party who is feat-starved, otherwise I'd rather have a proper Aura of Justice, even in a ranged party. +Cha (the paladin's) to attack and AC (deflection) against the target, +level (also the paladin's) to damage on 5 arrows a round, bypasses all DR. Seriously, it's really @#$%^&* sweet.

[Jarred Henninger]

I had a vanilla pally archer, it's just a wee bit awesome. Also giving smite to a shadow dancer and his friend and a few lantern archons is funny.

[Snowblind]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

...

Heavy Armor Proficiency for Precise shot - Most martials end up using mithril breastplate or celestial armor, so you are effectively getting a free feat here unless you planned on wearing fullplate on a character with a high dex. This is a free feat here. Bear that in mind when looking at the other trades.

Immunity to fear+bonus to allies for circumstantial ability - Yeah, this is fairly useless most of the time. That said, fear saves aren't that common, and you are a ranged combatant and a paladin so you will be making very few extra saves due to the loss of immunity and you will be failing even fewer of them. The bonus to allies is not as useful for you, since the PCs most at risk of both needing to make a save vs fear and failing said save are low will frontline martials, who you won't be near most of the time.

Divine Bond - Locks you out of a mount. Minor downside

Mercy for ranged lay on hands - Agreed on this, call it a wash.

Immunity to Charm for ghetto improved precise shot - Not great, but again the frontliners will be the ones making the saves, not you.

Aura of justise - Yep, it does suck losing this

Good aligned weapon change - As a paladin you don't have enough spare feats to be messing around with switchhitting. This really isn't a meaningful loss for you. The ranged attacks within 10ft is narrower than vanilla, but vanilla requires you to be within 15ft of a monster as a ranged combatant and is therefore not very good either.

Note that before aura of justice would come up the archetype looks somewhat attractive. You lose immunity to charm and fear in exchange for precise shot (plus some trades you don't really care about). At level 7 it means that you can have Deadly Aim, Many Shot and Precise Shot instead of having to skip one (you have only given up misc junk+immunity to fear by this stage). It's only at mid-high levels that the bonus feat becomes less attractive due to there being enough feats to get all the important archery ones regardless and due to losing aura of justice.