Is variant multiclassing sub-par?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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David knott 242 wrote:
Well -- let's take a wizard with slightly above average charisma. The bardic knowledge bonus is great for this character, and even the bardic performance feature is a decent feature. If I could stop there, the Bard VMC would be a no-brainer for this character. But then we get to Versatile Performance -- and that feature doesn't look so good.

I think it look amazing and find it to be one of the biggest features of the Bard VMC. At level 11 you get to be instant face. I imagine most wizards with those aspirations will take the skill focus (linguistics) and orator feats but this give you 3 full skills in one.

If your group dosent use social skills or generally mostly kill the guys you meet it is ofcause less amazing.


Bandw2 wrote:
I feel like someone should go around and redo them, and not necessarily make them 1 per class, druids or cavaliers and what not have enough different abilities to fill out a few VMCs on a theme. Also, getting something at every other feat level is pretty limiting, i think they should just swap 5 feats for a whole package.

I agree. There shouldve been several options:

Druid - basic
Druid - animalcompanion focus
Druid " wild.shape focus
Druid - domain/casting.focus

Remember paizo's unchained is just testing the waters - advanced VMC can easily be a future prospect in other books.


Kalindlara wrote:
Sort of like Eldritch Heritage, but for more classes? ^_^

Exactly.


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Cap. Darling wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
Well -- let's take a wizard with slightly above average charisma. The bardic knowledge bonus is great for this character, and even the bardic performance feature is a decent feature. If I could stop there, the Bard VMC would be a no-brainer for this character. But then we get to Versatile Performance -- and that feature doesn't look so good.

I think it look amazing and find it to be one of the biggest features of the Bard VMC. At level 11 you get to be instant face. I imagine most wizards with those aspirations will take the skill focus (linguistics) and orator feats but this give you 3 full skills in one.

If your group dosent use social skills or generally mostly kill the guys you meet it is ofcause less amazing.

That also showcases one of the problems of the VMCs though. At level 11 you get to be an instant face. What did the group do for the other 10 levels? It is such a delayed benefit that it serves very little use the majority of the time. The most noteworthy exception being starting off at higher level.


Godwyn wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
Well -- let's take a wizard with slightly above average charisma. The bardic knowledge bonus is great for this character, and even the bardic performance feature is a decent feature. If I could stop there, the Bard VMC would be a no-brainer for this character. But then we get to Versatile Performance -- and that feature doesn't look so good.

I think it look amazing and find it to be one of the biggest features of the Bard VMC. At level 11 you get to be instant face. I imagine most wizards with those aspirations will take the skill focus (linguistics) and orator feats but this give you 3 full skills in one.

If your group dosent use social skills or generally mostly kill the guys you meet it is ofcause less amazing.
That also showcases one of the problems of the VMCs though. At level 11 you get to be an instant face. What did the group do for the other 10 levels? It is such a delayed benefit that it serves very little use the majority of the time. The most noteworthy exception being starting off at higher level.

Good point, that is a problem. But that is generally a problem with having freely distributed skill points and feats as you level up. Just like all the other powers that show up out of the Blue in this game:)

Sovereign Court

Godwyn wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
Well -- let's take a wizard with slightly above average charisma. The bardic knowledge bonus is great for this character, and even the bardic performance feature is a decent feature. If I could stop there, the Bard VMC would be a no-brainer for this character. But then we get to Versatile Performance -- and that feature doesn't look so good.

I think it look amazing and find it to be one of the biggest features of the Bard VMC. At level 11 you get to be instant face. I imagine most wizards with those aspirations will take the skill focus (linguistics) and orator feats but this give you 3 full skills in one.

If your group dosent use social skills or generally mostly kill the guys you meet it is ofcause less amazing.
That also showcases one of the problems of the VMCs though. At level 11 you get to be an instant face. What did the group do for the other 10 levels? It is such a delayed benefit that it serves very little use the majority of the time. The most noteworthy exception being starting off at higher level.

Unless you use retraining. Just shift the skill points that were into Diplomacy into Perform: Whatever to get Diplomacy & something else.

Besides which - the same can be said of the Bard's Versitile Performance.

Silver Crusade Contributor

I believe the Bard VMC explicitly includes an automatic retrain with its Versatile Performance. ^_^


Yeah, a pool of options from each class would've been great, especially if there were leeway for which feat(s) to swap out. All it would require is abilities have tiers: 3rd or 5th, 7th or 9th, 11th or 13th, 15th or 17th, and then a capstone at 19 that isn't an actual capstone but something that ties it all together. And even if I take one at 3rd and 5th, I'm also losing out on feats and feat chains. Ideally the abilities are worth exactly one feat, not junk like the Gunslinger VMC that replaces your feats with... Feats.

That, and you want to feel like you're actually "multiclassing." Getting cantrips at 11 is not multiclassing. That's a trait, at level 1.


Puna'chong wrote:
Ideally the abilities are worth exactly one feat, not junk like the Gunslinger VMC that replaces your feats with... Feats.

??????

Aren't feats worth exactly one feat?

Care to explain?


Dekalinder wrote:
Puna'chong wrote:
Ideally the abilities are worth exactly one feat, not junk like the Gunslinger VMC that replaces your feats with... Feats.

??????

Aren't feats worth exactly one feat?

Care to explain?

Gunslinger VMC basically trades five feats for five feats.

But they're primarily the core feats that make shooting work. You want them by level three or so, you don't want to have to wait until level 11 to get the basic necessities of your build down. Druid has the same issue: you get a full powered animal companion, which is awesome. You get it at level 11... less awesome. You're three feats in at that point, and for the same three feats you can get a full power companion at level three. What advantage am I getting by waiting those eight levels? It's sure not the absolutely terrible Wild Empathy.

VMC was actually designed to be stronger than one feat apiece, under the theory that you're trading flexibility for power. Some (Wizard) balance strong abilities with weak ones, and that's fine. But under that design principle (which comes from Mark, not me), having gains that are consistently no better than feats makes a given VMC subpar.


Not much more to add to this, other than I don't know if anyone has commented yet that Sorcerer VMC is pretty much straight up superior to the Eldritch Heritage line, assuming you planned to take them all.

I'm going to see if I can get my Sohei Monk to add in VMC Sorcerer (orc). I had really wanted those abilities already, but it's so hard to justify the CHA on a Monk.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Gauthok wrote:

Not much more to add to this, other than I don't know if anyone has commented yet that Sorcerer VMC is pretty much straight up superior to the Eldritch Heritage line, assuming you planned to take them all.

I'm going to see if I can get my Sohei Monk to add in VMC Sorcerer (orc). I had really wanted those abilities already, but it's so hard to justify the CHA on a Monk.

There is one exception - Eldritch Heritage can let you skip to the 9th-level bloodline power, and do it at 11th level. ^_^


Ah, good call. Eldritch Heritage still lets you get them quite a bit sooner. So, if you're not crazy MAD, you can probably justify the CHA to get them.

I just like the possibility of getting free Str boost and a crazy good damage boost on a Sohei.

If you absolutely must go first, you could always take Diviner VMC on a Sohei. Too bad you can't take Sohei as a VMC. Pretty sure that'd be a popular one for every caster ever.


Gauthok wrote:

Not much more to add to this, other than I don't know if anyone has commented yet that Sorcerer VMC is pretty much straight up superior to the Eldritch Heritage line, assuming you planned to take them all.

I'm going to see if I can get my Sohei Monk to add in VMC Sorcerer (orc). I had really wanted those abilities already, but it's so hard to justify the CHA on a Monk.

That one actually has a fair few distinctions beyond what Kalindlara mentioned:

1. Eldritch Heritage can be tagged out of. If you only care about two powers you're burning three feats, not five.
2. For all but the third-level power, Eldritch Heritage is faster.
3. As sad as it is to say, Skill Focus might be more valuable than some bloodlines' feat lists.
4. Skill Focus doesn't really 'cost' a full feat unless your build requires it to. Human can get 2-3 Skill Focuses (depending on when your campaign ends) at the cost of their bonus feat. Half-Elves also get it free.

On the flip side, if you do want the full bloodline VMC is more powerful, and no annoying Cha requirements.

Silver Crusade Contributor

All of that, too. ^_^


Instead of taking the whole Eldritch Heritage line, look at what happens when you take Mythic Eldritch Heritage after Eldritch Heritage.


Lathiira wrote:
Instead of taking the whole Eldritch Heritage line, look at what happens when you take Mythic Eldritch Heritage after Eldritch Heritage.

And then add in Mythic Bloodline.

But that's Mythic rules. If they're not going above and beyond there's a problem.


I did say "if you want to take them all".

And I was wrong, because I failed to take into account the level delay. That is just too harsh for most games.

Mostly, I see VMC Sorcerer bloodlines as great for classes that need to dump CHA but would love to pick up those extra powers, and have the feats to burn.

So, some Fighter and Monk builds.

I guess here's what it comes down to in my opinion. These are a grab bag of tricks, not really giving you the feel of a multiclassed character. Whether or not you want a specific bag of tricks will depend entirely on your build.


Hard to justify Cha at a Monk? Why that, it means that he seems impressive in some way. It may not be the usual way to optimize your character - but I think characters don't have to be optimized to be fun. (Once seen the quote under a picture of a ranger riding a giant sloth)

Let me give my two cents to the discussion

It certainly is (in many cases) not easy to use the vmc to maximize the efficiency of your character, but it certainly is a fun way to create characters that do impress.

Examples I have used:
On one point I used a fighter / Vmc druid as bodyguard for a villian
Was is it a good choice? Not sure. Was it a lasting impression? Cerainly! I mean...who wouldn't remember a fighter riding a white tiger?

At another point I used a fighter with alchemist levels. My players were really surprised as they suddenly threw bombs at them

I admit I used mostly fighters up to now, simply because they can pull it off the easiest but the possibilities are vast enough.

Monks using sneak attacks to make even more devastating strikes, high level enemies with the impossible bloodline that suddenly start to charge along the wall or ceiling, elemental bloodlines characters with more movement options and at least a basic elemental attack, rakshasa bloodline characters who can lie to even the characters whose sense motive is nearly enough to read surface thoughts.

Other combos are pretty close at hand and give considerable boosts.
A magus belonging to a paladin or chevaliers order? Works just fine
as well as a chevalier having a paladin code or the other way around.
Or imagine a combat oriented bard (dancing dervish, arcane duelist) considering the membership in those orders. (A bard following a shelyn paladin code of conduct sounds pretty fitting to me)
While a vmc druid of pretty much every class has the option for a pretty sweet mount.

While on the other hand I pretty much agree that the gunslinger sucks and the system could be expanded on a lot of points
splitting druid in wild shape and animal companion vmcs? sounds pretty sweet
varying the monk that he can become usefull for more classes then the elemental ascetic and internal alchemist? sounds good - how about a vmc unchained monk that uses ki tricks?
How about making a sneaky vmc rogue who uses rogue tricks or skill unlocks and/or unchained rogues finsesse and sneak attack and on the other hand a rogue who gives a basic dungeoneering degree? (trapfinding/dangersense, evasion) ans why not focus the clerik on the domain OR the channel ability?

I think this might call for a new thread...


A vmc that let you have a few lvl 1 or 2 spell slots would be pretty top notch too especially for a martial.


A VMC granting up to the fourth spell level (like paladins and ranger...) but not much different abilities might just work out


I'm considering a Brawler + VMC Sorcerer to get the Ghoul bloodline powers. It would give him claws that can paralyze enemies, though I suppose that changes his attack from Improved Unarmed to Natural, correct?

I should probably just go Bloodrager instead...


fel_horfrost wrote:
A vmc that let you have a few lvl 1 or 2 spell slots would be pretty top notch too especially for a martial.

I was surprised they didn't introduce that with VMC. But it's probably because it was already covered with regular multiclassing.

Anyway, Psychic Disciple from Occult Adventures allows cherry picking of level 1 spells. After paying the cost, namely Int 13 and two feats before it. But heck, VMC costs 5 feats also and is less flexible...


Poor monk can't even get a good VMC version of itself...

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