So since the unchained rogue can get dex to damage to any finesse weapon I see this as my chance to finally make a character who is a beast with a small throwable blade type of weapon. However I'm having a hard time choosing between a simple dagger (slashing/piercing), or a kunai (piercing/blunt). I know that the dagger has a better range for criticals but that isn't my primary concern. Since the weapon type I choose will be the only type I get dex to damage with as well as having my feats focus on that weapon I obviously want it to be useful in as many situations as possible. So what combination of damage types would be better?
Not something I've researched, but my instinct is kunai for use against undead.
Bludgeoning seems fairly useful. It comes up rather often when facing the undead.
But knives have more support in the system. +1 damage from river rat trait, +2 damage from the deific obedience feat (pharasma). And you just generally find them more often as loot.
Overall, I would try to find out what you are fighting in your campaign. Carrion Crown? Go with the kunai.
Kunai opens up for the loong feat chain that is bludgeoner, sap adept, sap Master and pehaps enforcer.
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You mentioned throwable weapons, just want to make sure you realize that you can't get dex to damage when you throw the weapon, only when used in melee.
Personally, if I was going this route, It might be worth a feat to use a Dwarven Maulaxe. 1d6/x3 (B or S)
That's an important point CraziFuzzy. The Unchained Rogue would not get dex to damage while throwing the weapon....so maybe this whole plan needs to be rethought.
Pehaps flying blade or that monk Archtype May be the way to go.
Or VMC magus would allow a piercing weapon to get level to damage also on the throw up to 30 feet.
Edit: a farstrike monk with VMC magus and shurikins Might be a interesting thing to try.
Pehaps flying blade or that monk Archtype May be the way to go.
Or VMC magus would allow a piercing weapon to get level to damage also on the throw up to 30 feet.
Edit: a farstrike monk with VMC magus and shurikins Might be a interesting thing to try.
What would a VMC magus be offering here? :confused:
What would a VMC magus be offering here? :confused:Pehaps flying blade or that monk Archtype May be the way to go.
Or VMC magus would allow a piercing weapon to get level to damage also on the throw up to 30 feet.
Edit: a farstrike monk with VMC magus and shurikins Might be a interesting thing to try.
Arcane deed(precise strike), i have been led to belive, is a option. If that work like the swashbuckler deed it says it replicates(and we assume the swash. level issue is fixed) it will give level to dam with a piercing weapon out to 30 feet.
Pretty deep chain to get there though. You don't get Magus Arcana until 7th level, which you would presumably use for Flamboyant Arcana. You then need to take the Extra Arcana feat to grab Arcane Deed (Precise Strike) arcana, and, being a VMC, you don't HAVE a 7th level feat to use (and really don't have many feats at all).
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Pretty deep chain to get there though. You don't get Magus Arcana until 7th level, which you would presumably use for Flamboyant Arcana. You then need to take the Extra Arcana feat to grab Arcane Deed (Precise Strike) arcana, and, being a VMC, you don't HAVE a 7th level feat to use (and really don't have many feats at all).
The monk give almost all the throwing feats one need and to have +9 on all attacks within 30 feet could be worth feats by level 9.
I havent looked at the chainless book, so i really dont know what i am talking about, mind you.
Bludgeoning seems fairly useful. It comes up rather often when facing the undead.
But knives have more support in the system. +1 damage from river rat trait, +2 damage from the deific obedience feat (pharasma). And you just generally find them more often as loot.
Overall, I would try to find out what you are fighting in your campaign. Carrion Crown? Go with the kunai.
Pharasma grants +2 to hit, not to damage, with daggers.
Pharasma grants +2 to hit, not to damage, with daggers.Bludgeoning seems fairly useful. It comes up rather often when facing the undead.
But knives have more support in the system. +1 damage from river rat trait, +2 damage from the deific obedience feat (pharasma). And you just generally find them more often as loot.
Overall, I would try to find out what you are fighting in your campaign. Carrion Crown? Go with the kunai.
Whoops, that is correct.
But that is even better. One feat and a few ranks in a knowledge, and you improve your attack bonus. Since one of the main complaints about rogues is their 3/4 BAB with a lack of attack boosters...well... there you go.
Pharasma grants +2 to hit, not to damage, with daggers.Bludgeoning seems fairly useful. It comes up rather often when facing the undead.
But knives have more support in the system. +1 damage from river rat trait, +2 damage from the deific obedience feat (pharasma). And you just generally find them more often as loot.
Overall, I would try to find out what you are fighting in your campaign. Carrion Crown? Go with the kunai.
Whoops, that is correct.
But that is even better. One feat and a few ranks in a knowledge, and you improve your attack bonus. Since one of the main complaints about rogues is their 3/4 BAB with a lack of attack boosters...well... there you go.
Plus, you can qualify for the Evangelist prestige class, which is pretty neat.
Aww dex to damage while throwing it was gonna be the best part too. :( well that's no fun may need to rethink this.
Honestly I've just been trying real hard to find a way to make my main weapon a super small blade worth it and I thought getting dex to damage while throwing it would be perfect but so much for that. :/
Honestly I've just been trying real hard to find a way to make my main weapon a super small blade worth it and I thought getting dex to damage while throwing it would be perfect but so much for that. :/
Don't forget Knife Master. That can go a long way towards making it work.
Weapon Versatility from Undead Slayer's Handbook is worth the look if you're THAT concerned with the damage type.
Otherwise, daggers have better support than kuni.
If you want stupid fun, I suggest a Warpriest with Daggers selected either via god's favored or Weapon Focus. Eventually you throw daggers like greatswords.
I think people put way too much stock in dex to damage. Unless your build is absolutely based on unarmored, it is often not worth it. In many ways, a rogue's ability to avoid damage is every bit as effective as a barbarian's ability to dish it out. Net damage is really what matters.
I think people put way too much stock in dex to damage. Unless your build is absolutely based on unarmored, it is often not worth it. In many ways, a rogue's ability to avoid damage is every bit as effective as a barbarian's ability to dish it out. Net damage is really what matters.
What ability to avoid damage? In my experience the rouges main problem is that he have no reliable way to avoid damage. I am not even sure i undestand what you say here. Care to explain for the sligthly dim:)
Honestly I've just been trying real hard to find a way to make my main weapon a super small blade worth it and I thought getting dex to damage while throwing it would be perfect but so much for that. :/
Butoh the farstrike monk and the flying blade swashbuckler can do some of this for you. The skill focus for the class will be more narrow but you can be a competative damage dealer.
Your main problem will be that you throw away your magic weapons all the time. Blinkback belt seem to be the solution here, but that cost the belt slot.
I think people put way too much stock in dex to damage. Unless your build is absolutely based on unarmored, it is often not worth it. In many ways, a rogue's ability to avoid damage is every bit as effective as a barbarian's ability to dish it out. Net damage is really what matters.What ability to avoid damage? In my experience the rouges main problem is that he have no reliable way to avoid damage. I am not even sure i undestand what you say here. Care to explain for the sligthly dim:)
stealth, acrobatics and evasion, are the first few that come to mind.
stealth, acrobatics and evasion, are the first few that come to mind.I think people put way too much stock in dex to damage. Unless your build is absolutely based on unarmored, it is often not worth it. In many ways, a rogue's ability to avoid damage is every bit as effective as a barbarian's ability to dish it out. Net damage is really what matters.What ability to avoid damage? In my experience the rouges main problem is that he have no reliable way to avoid damage. I am not even sure i undestand what you say here. Care to explain for the sligthly dim:)
We must play very different games if +3 on stealth and getting evasion is as good as rage powers and rage. Barbars also have acrobatics.
We must play very different games if +3 on stealth and getting evasion is as good as rage powers and rage. Barbars also have acrobatics.stealth, acrobatics and evasion, are the first few that come to mind.I think people put way too much stock in dex to damage. Unless your build is absolutely based on unarmored, it is often not worth it. In many ways, a rogue's ability to avoid damage is every bit as effective as a barbarian's ability to dish it out. Net damage is really what matters.What ability to avoid damage? In my experience the rouges main problem is that he have no reliable way to avoid damage. I am not even sure i undestand what you say here. Care to explain for the sligthly dim:)
Evasion can be grabbed with a ring, and it is just a simple trait to get stealth as a class skill (the fact that you can't stealth while raging is moot- you are usually not going to stealth very effectively again in a fight unless you have hide in plain sight....plus there is a trait to allow you to do it with rage anyway).
Those features mentioned can all be easily replaced with other options available to just about everyone.
And while evasion is nice, the other options are not entirely solving all your problems in a fight. Acrobatics is only for when you are moving, and evasion only handles certain spells. It is not DR, natural armor bonuses, or superstition.
Still, I will readily acknowledge that I have never been big on dex builds. Rouges have good reflex saves, and it is not like it is hard to get decent armor (armor expert trait makes mithral breast plates available to everyone).
My point was that in my games the defensive powers of the rogue is among the weakest in the game. I am hard pressed to find a PC class that dont have at least as good defensive features by level 5 as the rogue. So to say that the defense of the rogue is as worthy a thing as the offense of the barbarian, a class that is better both on offense and defense than the rogue, seem strange to me. And i hoped for a revalation and not stealth, and evasion.
You're more likely to find a magic dagger durring the course of your adventures, than a... whatever that other thing is.
You are reading WAY more into my use of classes in my statement that I meant. I was simply stating that if you are going to play a dexterous character, be dexterous. I was not talking specifically about the rogue, or the barbarian. I was talking about the false perception that a dexterous character needs to somehow be able to directly apply that dexterity to their damage to be effective. In the case of a rogue, Improved Feint can usually boost damage far more than dex to damage will.
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You are reading WAY more into my use of classes in my statement that I meant. I was simply stating that if you are going to play a dexterous character, be dexterous. I was not talking specifically about the rogue, or the barbarian. I was talking about the false perception that a dexterous character needs to somehow be able to directly apply that dexterity to their damage to be effective. In the case of a rogue, Improved Feint can usually boost damage far more than dex to damage will.
I doubt it, as you are wasting an attack to get that boost, and a lot of monsters either can't be feinted or have a massive penalty for being the wrong creature type and/or low intelligence.
If you are a dex primary character, Dex to damage will easily add +7 to +9 damage per hit, easily equal to three sneak attack dice.
You are reading WAY more into my use of classes in my statement that I meant. I was simply stating that if you are going to play a dexterous character, be dexterous. I was not talking specifically about the rogue, or the barbarian. I was talking about the false perception that a dexterous character needs to somehow be able to directly apply that dexterity to their damage to be effective. In the case of a rogue, Improved Feint can usually boost damage far more than dex to damage will.I doubt it, as you are wasting an attack to get that boost, and a lot of monsters either can't be feinted or have a massive penalty for being the wrong creature type and/or low intelligence.
If you are a dex primary character, Dex to damage will easily add +7 to +9 damage per hit, easily equal to three sneak attack dice.
At what level are you talking about though. You mention losing an attack to feint, which would only happen at 8th level or higher, at which point you have at least 4d6 on sneak. Assuming a 1d6 weapon (typical fora rogue), and no strength, that's an average damage per successful sneak attack of 17.5hp. That's at your full BAB against a potentially hindered opponent AC (due to the feint removing dex/dodge). Even assuming you had a 26 Dex (needed for that +8 Dex to damage you describe, and in my experience, quite high for 8th level), by taking the iterative instead of feinting, you're looking at 11.5hp per successful hit, the second of which will be at a -5, which equates to a drop of 25% average damage, resulting in a relative 20.125hp/ruond IF you are hitting against the same AC. However, if the target has only +3 to AC combined from dex and dodge bonuses, than the feint vs. iterative is a wash - any higher than that and the feint wins. That's at 8th level. Sneak Attack damage will scale further than dex to damage will.
You are reading WAY more into my use of classes in my statement that I meant. I was simply stating that if you are going to play a dexterous character, be dexterous. I was not talking specifically about the rogue, or the barbarian. I was talking about the false perception that a dexterous character needs to somehow be able to directly apply that dexterity to their damage to be effective. In the case of a rogue, Improved Feint can usually boost damage far more than dex to damage will.
I responded to what you wrote not to what you intendet to write.
I dont like Dex to damage as a mechanic but it is the PF solution to not having dex based melee types suck, and until my better solution is really better i will go for that if i want to play dex based. It is important to remember that there is nothing that make a dex based character better at pulling of sneek attacks than a strength based. So to set up sneek attack as a alternative to dex to damage is false.
Finesse Training only works on melee attacks. Sorry, no Dexterity to damage with ranged weapons, or even melee weapons that are used at range.
To clear up why I'm trying to work with dex to damage is because one I just get it and don't want to waste it and two the character is being made to run in pfs with two friends and we are all making three kitsune who run together so I not only have a plus to dex but a minus to str. While I will be forking out some points to get a 12 after racial modifiers that's not terribly exciting. So I'm simply trying to work with what I got.
Also since it is pfs the fact that you don't usually find kunai in your loot is irrelevant.
To clear up why I'm trying to work with dex to damage is because one I just get it and don't want to waste it and two the character is being made to run in pfs with two friends and we are all making three kitsune who run together so I not only have a plus to dex but a minus to str. While I will be forking out some points to get a 12 after racial modifiers that's not terribly exciting. So I'm simply trying to work with what I got.
Also since it is pfs the fact that you don't usually find kunai in your loot is irrelevant.
Eh, I could make a strength based kitsune. It is not terribly hard on a 20 point buy- you save on a bit of dex and dump cha hard since you stay near normal anyway with the bonus. That gives you enough extra point buy to play around with. With that you can get....barely acceptable str with a 16 post racial.
I never said it was the best move, but it is a fairly viable one.
No I get that you can but I'm definitely being an unchained rogue because I just got the unchained book and I have a lot of love for the rogue since it was my fav class when I played 3.5 as a kid so I'm really excited to try the unchained version and since I get dex to damage free and considering Kitsune's modifiers I'm looking to cash in on it. Also UMD is gonna be a big part of my higher level play so I can't dump charisma. I'm unsure if the unchained rogue gets the whole "first tip, don't be a rogue" thing but I'm actually WANTING to be a skill monkey. However that doesn't mean I don't want to contribute in combat. Here is the stat block I'm looking at.
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con:12
Int: 11
Wis:10
Cha: 14
Int is 11 so that I can use the major magic talent and it will be raised at level 4 for more ranks. The rest will go into dex.
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I'd lower STR to 10 or even 8 and raise con and wis. You need all the help you can get with Fort and Wis saves, and the HP will be good as well.
Since you are going Kitsune, you might be better off going with your bite. Fox Form will give you a huge boost to Dex, which with finesse training will let you Dex to damage. You can take Feral Combat Training and a level of unchained monk to really make it take off.
Honestly I've already loosely got an idea going for a three level dip into unchained rogue then unchained monk with feral combat training and fox shape. However it's not the aesthetic I was hoping for and it wouldn't really work till level 4 and I don't wanna trudge through the first few levels.
I would go with stats like str 10, con 14, dex 17, int and wis 12 and cha 14 after racial and put all stat increases in dex. Get the river rat trait and use a dagger. Alexd1976 suggestet a religion that would give you +2 to hit with daggers that is amazing for a rogue. If your two buddies have a bit of support you can be a fine addition to any team.
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Honestly I've already loosely got an idea going for a three level dip into unchained rogue then unchained monk with feral combat training and fox shape. However it's not the aesthetic I was hoping for and it wouldn't really work till level 4 and I don't wanna trudge through the first few levels.
If you really want a throwing weapon stealthy build - a ninja is far superior to an unchained rogue. Too much rogue stuff is melee only, and they rely more upon flanking in melee for SA. Though frankly - all thrown weapon builds are a bit slow to get going since you need all the same feats as archery plus some.
Of note - while Finesse Training doesn't work at range - by RAW an Agile enchantment does. Said Agile weapon and a blinkback belt are pretty much required to make the build work once you get past mundane weaponry.
So that you don't need to purchase two Agile weapons - you may consider dipping either a single level into Sohei monk or two into Snakebite Strike Brawler for flurry. The Sohei gives you better saves and only takes a single level, but the Snakebite gives you d6 SA and lets you flurry with daggers. *shrug*
Basically - the only 3 advantages of a thrown weapon build vs an archery build are
1. You get one more attack since rapid-shot stacks with TWF/flurry. Though of course - the accuracy is hurt.
2. You aren't weak in melee. At least not so long as you burn an additional feat on Weapon Finesse. Also - if they can grab Point Blank Master - archers aren't either. (I hate that feat - removes the Achilles Heel from the most powerful combat style. But... for a different thread.)
3. The Agile enchantment. It allows you to focus entirely on dex - while an archer needs decent Str for damage.
So - going this method - the build will be weak until you can afford 10,800 gp worth of gear and 4-5 feats (TWF or flurry/Point Blank/Precise/Rapid Shot) - but... that's a throwing build for you.
You might be better off going melee. The only way I'd attempt a stealth throwing build in PFS is if I got AP and/or GM credit up to level 5ish.
True Star throwing ninja is an option and good benefit from cha there.
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True Star throwing ninja is an option and good benefit from cha there.
The problem with shuriken is that they get used up when thrown. In the long term it's simply too expensive to enchant ammo as your primary weapon.
If it wasn't for PFS - and the GM was using the inherent big 6 rules from unchained - I'd totally be with you.
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True Star throwing ninja is an option and good benefit from cha there.The problem with shuriken is that they get used up when thrown. In the long term it's simply too expensive to enchant ammo as your primary weapon.
If it wasn't for PFS - and the GM was using the inherent big 6 rules from unchained - I'd totally be with you.
As a way around this, you could use an Allying weapon in one hand and transfer the bonus to your Shuriken.
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And the way that MIGHT not work is if the GM says you transfer it to 1 shuriken for the round (not a batch of 50).True Star throwing ninja is an option and good benefit from cha there.The problem with shuriken is that they get used up when thrown. In the long term it's simply too expensive to enchant ammo as your primary weapon.
If it wasn't for PFS - and the GM was using the inherent big 6 rules from unchained - I'd totally be with you.
As a way around this, you could use an Allying weapon in one hand and transfer the bonus to your Shuriken.
Also - some interpret Allying as only working when said weapon is attacked with in the turn it's used to count as being 'wielded'. They base it on the Defending FAQ - though there are several other similar abilities which would argue against such an interpretation. *shrug* Expect table variation. (There was a similar argument over a monk using an Allying weapon for enhancement and the AoMF for abilities.)
True Star throwing ninja is an option and good benefit from cha there.The problem with shuriken is that they get used up when thrown. In the long term it's simply too expensive to enchant ammo as your primary weapon.
If it wasn't for PFS - and the GM was using the inherent big 6 rules from unchained - I'd totally be with you.
can't you get them made like arrows that dosent breake? Or use clustered shot and just cry when you miss? Mainly the first question is a Real one:)
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can't you get them made like arrows that dosent breake? Or use clustered shot and just cry when you miss? Mainly the first question is a Real one:)True Star throwing ninja is an option and good benefit from cha there.The problem with shuriken is that they get used up when thrown. In the long term it's simply too expensive to enchant ammo as your primary weapon.
If it wasn't for PFS - and the GM was using the inherent big 6 rules from unchained - I'd totally be with you.
If you mean durable arrows - their magic is used up with use as well.
If you mean something else - what is it? I don't know of anything that keeps magic ammo magical after use. (Other than the normal 50% chance on a miss.)