I Hate Drawing Maps!


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But my players want them. I can't afford to have one drawn for me or to buy map making software. I've tried using some blank map images I found online and altering them with Picasa or Paint but I can't seem to figure out how to do that either.

I'm just griping. No need to comment.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I hate alligning pre-drawn maps to the grid in Roll-20 online Pathfinder games.


Never tried that. But I imagine it'd be a pain.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

It certainly takes some practice.

My maps never look as good as the ones in the book. :(


What kind of maps do you need?

How do you play?

I might be able to make some suggestions.

A good place to start would be HERE.


Google Dyson Logos


DM Cal: I hear you buddy! I suck at maps, free hand drawing and using mapping software. However I don't have the roll20 problem; I play live or by email.

My current area is a town called Valyg's Crossing. I hand drew the map for the town and immediate hinterlands. It basically looks like some pen-drawn straight lines and blocks plopped in the middle of some green blobs (the Nettlewood), some greenish-brown waves (the Bleakmoss Moors), a giant blob of blue (Loch Soth) and some ridges of grey-brown-green (the Soddenscars, lakeside swamps).

I was actually pretty proud of it when I first finished it. When I brought it to the first game though the players were like "Huh... that happened..." which kind of took the wind out of my sails. Bottom line: maps are REALLY freaking hard. Everyone who jumps into this thread and goes "maps are easy" you are all natural artists and I loathe your God-given talents...

Sovereign Court

I love drawing maps. If you need something specific, feel free to PM me, and I'll draw and scan it and e mail it for you.


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Cool..thanks, Hama!

Grand Lodge

Thanael wrote:
Google Dyson Logos

Wow!

I can only dream of having that kind of talent (or patience for that matter)...


Actually, the crosshatching is easy and fun. Just draw three lines at roughly a 60 degree angle to the last three lines you drew. Sometimes let the lines splay out into a fan or draw them straight as needed. Add a few random circles to look like stones and crosshatch around them.

It looks great when it's done. It takes time rather than skill, I think.


If your players want maps so they can carefully place their characters tactically in a fight, dungeonographer might work for you. It has for me. I can put the minimum of useful information on a map and export it to a PNG file (or whatever) without too much trouble. The free version works well enough for the above purposes, and it's web-based (or Java if you want to download it), so it should work on most anything.

If your players want maps so that they can look at something pretty, then I can't help you. (Dungeonographer maps probably can be made to look pretty, but that's more effort than I can handle regardless of the tools involved.)


Mythic Evil Lincoln, I'd say that it is more accurate to say that that it is very easy to achieve reasonable effects. While achieving the same level of quality Dyson has risen to, takes a lot of practice.


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Benjamin Wenham wrote:

What kind of maps do you need?

How do you play?

I might be able to make some suggestions.

A good place to start would be HERE.

Thanks for the link. I need world maps, specifically certain regions. I have what I want in my head, but it's hard for me to actually draw them out. Dungeon maps are fairly easy, those we do mostly in theater of the mind. But for some gall darned reason they want world maps.


Well, I happen to love world mapping. That is something might be able to do for you.

IF you wan't PM me, and I can see what I can do for you.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I'd also be happy to help out, I love mapping and any excuse to practice.

Here is a convenient example. (Handdrawn and digitally colored). I can also do maps in Campaign Cartographer like so, although that is not my best work. Neither of these are world maps but that's what I can conveniently link to; I like to do world maps as well.


Cal, I'm in the same boat. I'm pretty terrible at drawing geographic maps.

When I need an outdoor map, I try to find a real-world map of a region that's geographically similar and of the same scale that I want to use. If I can, I try to get an unmarked version, then I draw my own towns, roads, borders, etc.

In that regard, Google Maps can be your friend.

There have been many times the PCs have been adventuring in the real world, but never knew it! (In my current campaign, a map of the White Mountains National Forest in New Hampshire is currently standing in for a section of the Mindspin Mountains on the Varisia/Belkzen border in Golarion.)

Of course, that's another reason I tend to run published adventures.


Haladir wrote:

Cal, I'm in the same boat. I'm pretty terrible at drawing geographic maps.

When I need an outdoor map, I try to find a real-world map of a region that's geographically similar and of the same scale that I want to use. If I can, I try to get an unmarked version, then I draw my own towns, roads, borders, etc.

In that regard, Google Maps can be your friend.

There have been many times the PCs have been adventuring in the real world, but never knew it! (In my current campaign, a map of the White Mountains National Forest in New Hampshire is currently standing in for a section of the Mindspin Mountains on the Varisia/Belkzen border in Golarion.)

Of course, that's another reason I tend to run published adventures.

This is largely what I do. My campaign is currently set in a city very much like 10th Century Constantinople and in the same geographic region of "real Earth". The map I chose, however, is from the Oligocene Epoch of the Paleogene Period in Earth's prehistory. The continents look very similar to modern day, though coastlines are often drastically different and North and South America aren't connected via the isthmus as it is now.

What I'm trying for is a fairly closeup map of the immediate region, with the area reaching into Western Asia and Northern Africa without showing the whole world. I just stink at drawing! Everyone has been very kind in their suggestions and offers of help, but I think that since it's my world I should probably go ahead and give it a go, no matter how aggravating it is. Thank you all for the good vibes!


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http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/

this is a random world generator I've used in the past.

just splat out a map and fill it in as you need stuff

edit: here's another one
http://www.bottlenose.demon.co.uk/share/fracplanet/index.htm

Community Manager

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CHeck out RPGMapShare.com and the Cartographer's Guild for maps.
Also, the macaroni method (NSFW, language) and a map-centric worldbuilding list of references.


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Yeah, I refuse to draw maps. I grab online ones and make my campaign fit them :P


Liz Courts wrote:

CHeck out RPGMapShare.com and the Cartographer's Guild for maps.

Also, the macaroni method (NSFW, language) and a map-centric worldbuilding list of references.

Ok, the macaroni method just about cracked me up... lol

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Liz has posted good links, I use the first two regularly.

Dark Archive

Petty Alchemy wrote:
Liz has posted good links, I use the first two regularly.

And not the macaroni method?

How dare you.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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I play entirely on VTTs, and don't have a scanner. Or macaroni.

I'm not going to derail this thread with a discussion of which pasta is better than which, everyone has their own preferences and there's no wrongbadpasta.

Community Manager

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I really want to try the macaroni method, because I have a couple of personal projects that require it. Also because I'm hungry.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Haladir wrote:

Cal, I'm in the same boat. I'm pretty terrible at drawing geographic maps.

When I need an outdoor map, I try to find a real-world map of a region that's geographically similar and of the same scale that I want to use. If I can, I try to get an unmarked version, then I draw my own towns, roads, borders, etc.

In that regard, Google Maps can be your friend.

There have been many times the PCs have been adventuring in the real world, but never knew it! (In my current campaign, a map of the White Mountains National Forest in New Hampshire is currently standing in for a section of the Mindspin Mountains on the Varisia/Belkzen border in Golarion.)

Of course, that's another reason I tend to run published adventures.

This is largely what I do. My campaign is currently set in a city very much like 10th Century Constantinople and in the same geographic region of "real Earth". The map I chose, however, is from the Oligocene Epoch of the Paleogene Period in Earth's prehistory. The continents look very similar to modern day, though coastlines are often drastically different and North and South America aren't connected via the isthmus as it is now.

What I'm trying for is a fairly closeup map of the immediate region, with the area reaching into Western Asia and Northern Africa without showing the whole world. I just stink at drawing! Everyone has been very kind in their suggestions and offers of help, but I think that since it's my world I should probably go ahead and give it a go, no matter how aggravating it is. Thank you all for the good vibes!

Well at least with that you've got something to start with. You could probably find or trace a map of the appropriate region (http://www.carnivorousplants.org/cp/images/Oligocene%20Tethys.jpglike so[/url] (though I realize that one's a bit too big) and add in the towns and such that you need.

What a cool idea, btw! Great way to make an "Earth-like" world without it being exactly identical.


DeathQuaker wrote:
What a cool idea, btw!...

Thank you. It was born of equal parts inspiration and laziness... lol


First off: the Macaroni method is the shiz-nit.

Secondly @ my pal Cal: thanks for starting this thread. I've always felt this way but never articulated it online. I get the feeling a lot of my fellow gamers do too. We all are blessed with great imaginations but not all of us have the gift of putting what we see in our heads on paper, whether in words or in art. I wonder then if there's some gamers out there with amazing voices who sing their games?

Anyway to everyone: I'm in the same boat with DMC. I can do dungeons. Heck, I have whole reams of paper devoted just to those and I've flat out stolen cross hatching from Vacuum Logos. However all of my overland maps are either hex-maps with a tree, a hill or whatever in each hex and no definition at all, or they look like a bunch of blobs in different colors. I figured after doing this off and on for 35 years my drawing style would get BETTER from when I was 6, but it's basically the same.

DQuake and others willing to work on commission: how much does that cost?


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I use minecraft.

Free mode has what you need. Works in 3D for flying, towers, etc.

You can add people that can work the map with you on a Lan server.

Works well over all else I've tried.


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If I want to do a world or continent map, I reinstall one of my Civilization games and draw (badly) the results of one of the randomised maps from there.


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I like maps so much, not only do I draw them, I've incorporated toilet rolls to represent towers and stairways. Lol.

They had to get to the toilet roll to escape from the vampire and golem.


For me the hardest thing is figuring out how far I want things to be apart. Thankfully I managed to get a foundation but figuring out distance has always been an issue for me.


HyperMissingno wrote:
For me the hardest thing is figuring out how far I want things to be apart. Thankfully I managed to get a foundation but figuring out distance has always been an issue for me.

I've always had trouble with this, too.


How far ARE things supposed to be? I have that problem as well.

Community Manager

What "things" are you talking about? :)


I think what is meant here is how far apart are cities and towns. What distances make them too far apart for easy overland travel or trade. In ancient societies you could live 15 miles from another village and never have even heard of it.

Shadow Lodge

Subparhiggins wrote:
I hate aligning pre-drawn maps to the grid in Roll-20 online Pathfinder games.

I thought I was alone in this. When I was using Combat Assistant, aligning maps was really easy.

Instead of aligning the map to the grid, you realign the grid to the map.

Not sure why Roll20 doesn't support this!


DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I think what is meant here is how far apart are cities and towns. What distances make them too far apart for easy overland travel or trade.

Cites, towns, mountain ranges, and forestland specifically in my case.

Community Manager

Well, the best answer to that is... Do some research. It's not a one-size-fits-all answer, but get out some maps (particularly of Europe or pre-colonial US) and start working from there.
Cities don't just happen. Cities need a water supply (count how many are near a river or a lake or other body of water). Cities need to be a hub that connects to other towns and villages. Why does a city exist? Why do people go there? What supports the infrastructure? Trade? Military?
Follow the path of least resistance. A straight line through a dense forest generally doesn't happen unless someone is trying to prove a point—making a road that follows the terrain is more often the case. (See: old city street plans vs. say, Phoenix, Arizona or Salt Lake City, Utah.)
Watch your rivers. Again, path of least resistance. Water goes down in elevation, not up (barring any fantastical sites in your game), collects in depressions, has to have an origin somewhere. (This is also ripe adventure fuel.)
Mountains work along continental plates. Older mountains are not as jagged as newer ones (example: Rocky Mountains or Himalayas).
Asking yourself the why of your maps will make that much more believable when it comes to putting pencil on paper. Start with a list of features you want, then work to the why they are there.
Example: I want a coastal desert that erupts in firestorms. Salt flats work well for this purpose, so I would look at the Western US basin for some terrain and layout ideas. Any paths across this hellscape would not meander—it would be straight lines and go from oasis to oasis (if any existed).
And when all else fails, crib liberally. Take an existing map of the Earth (or Mars, or TItan, or whatevs), invert it, rotate it, make some tweaks, and use that as your map.


Liz Courts wrote:
And when all else fails, crib liberally. Take an existing map of the Earth (or Mars, or TItan, or whatevs), invert it, rotate it, make some tweaks, and use that as your map.

Thanks, Liz. Great advice! I do crib a lot. I don't know how far up the thread you've read, but I base the general look of my world on actual Earth from the Oligocene Epoch of Earth's prehistory. The continents look similar, though the coastlines are often different and the continents don't necessarily connect to each other (ie North and South America don't have the Isthmus to connect them).

But that's about as far as I've gotten. It's drawing the smaller area maps with cities, landmarks, deserts, oases, etc that really just bogs me down.


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I have never created the map of a city, even when I used to homebrew. There are probably some 3rd party options for cheap(less than $5) maps that are premade.

You can probably also find maps of fantasy settings and just tweak them, but if the actual drawing is what takes time, then you might be able to have the maps blown up if you can find good resolution online, and then laminated, or just laminated if you think they are big enough already.

Community Manager

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
And when all else fails, crib liberally. Take an existing map of the Earth (or Mars, or TItan, or whatevs), invert it, rotate it, make some tweaks, and use that as your map.

Thanks, Liz. Great advice! I do crib a lot. I don't know how far up the thread you've read, but I base the general look of my world on actual Earth from the Oligocene Epoch of Earth's prehistory. The continents look similar, though the coastlines are often different and the continents don't necessarily connect to each other (ie North and South America don't have the Isthmus to connect them).

But that's about as far as I've gotten. It's drawing the smaller area maps with cities, landmarks, deserts, oases, etc that really just bogs me down.

My brother and I did something similar when we first started gaming (although it was Pangaea for our map).

Cities grow where there are resources to support it, deserts where there's a lack of water (though this is a gross simplification), oases where there is a manufactured well or an underground source of water.
Landmarks are generally unusual or notable geographical features, or have other historic or cultural importance.
It's pretty easy to get bogged down in the details, so just focus on the area that you're currently running an adventure in. Pick five things, add one type of settlement for each size category (thorp, village, town, etc.), and just build as you go. (Don't forget to take notes as you worldbuild along the way.)


I sometimes get bogged down not by where to put villages and oases (for example) but by how would the ocean currents flow? How would they affect weather and climate? Sometimes too many details flood my mind and that causes a shut down, too.

Silver Crusade

I hate small-scale maps. Bigger ones aren't that much of a problem for me-- I use a program on my tablet to lay out continents and the like. Just don't ask me to produce realistic geography.

Community Manager

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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I sometimes get bogged down not by where to put villages and oases (for example) but by how would the ocean currents flow? How would they affect weather and climate? Sometimes too many details flood my mind and that causes a shut down, too.

Again, look to real-life examples, like the Gulf Stream. For the most part, it's not something you'll have to worry about in your games, so don't sweat it. It *would* be a concern if you have to head out on the ocean, but until you reach that point, don't sweat it. Do what you need for your current adventure arc—everything else can wait. :)


Liz Courts wrote:
Do what you need for your current adventure arc—everything else can wait. :)

I try. I try so hard. Then SCIENCE! rears its ugly head... lol


DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Liz Courts wrote:
Do what you need for your current adventure arc—everything else can wait. :)
I try. I try so hard. Then SCIENCE! rears its ugly head... lol

Science can wait. Our world functioned for thousands [many would say millions] of years before we figured any of this s@@* out.

I just take it one piece at a time, developing the part of the world the PCs are involved in. As they travel around more gets developed.

Go with climates and landscapes that interest you and let the science sort itself out.


Thing is, I know all this stuff. It's just the actual drawing of the map that I just. don't. like. I'm not a good, even mediocre, sketch artist, and it rarely turns out the way I envision it. But, everyone has been pretty encouraging so I'm going to give it a go soon. At least the parts necessary.


There's a good article in Kobold Press's Kobold Guide to Worldbuilding by Jonathan Roberts about worldbuilding through map design. He also has a shorter blog post on the topic. He generally advises skirting the science (especially in fantasy) but offers guidelines about rivers, mountains, and climate to maintain consistency.

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