Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Page 24 of the Guide to Organized Play answers this question, I believe:
If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of a 4th-level cleric
spell.
As well, in PFS, there is no distinction (in this regard) between arcane or divine spells:
For the sake of simplicity, there is no difference between an arcane and divine scroll or wand. Thus a bard and cleric may both use the same scroll of cure moderate wounds.
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You cannot buy an Alchemist spell on a scroll anyways, but as per the Guide to Organized Play:
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are available only at the minimum caster level unless found at a higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.As per the Alchemist's entry in APG:
An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist.
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An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages, and time requirements. A formulae book costs as much as a spellbook. An alchemist can study a wizard’s spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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You cannot buy an Alchemist spell on a scroll anywaysWhy not? You can buy wands of Alchemist spells.I'm sorry, but unfortunately you can't buy those either.
That just means the wand wasn't made by an alchemist, not that alchemists can't use wands with spells on them, made by a non-alchemist, that happen to also be on the alchemist list.
Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so).
Because that's what this section is referring to: wands are the spell-trigger items whose spells should ideally feature on the alchemist list.
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You cannot buy an Alchemist spell on a scroll anywaysWhy not? You can buy wands of Alchemist spells.I'm sorry, but unfortunately you can't buy those either.
That just means the wand wasn't made by an alchemist, not that alchemists can't use wands with spells on them, made by a non-alchemist, that happen to also be on the alchemist list.
Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so).Because that's what this section is referring to: wands are the spell-trigger items whose spells should ideally feature on the alchemist list.
I believe what he was saying was that a player can't buy a wand that is only on the alchemist spell list like Bomber's Eye, for example.
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I seem to recall an Investigator in my area using a wand of Alchemical Allocation, which is why I thought wands of Alchemist spells were a thing.
Apparently I'll have to track him down.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis
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Some abilities trigger versus just arcane spells, or just divine spells. How do I figure out that out when someone uses a scroll.
In that case, I would base it on whatever class list the spell comes from for that level. In other words, if it's a level 3 Cleric spell and a level 4 Wizard spell, the rule requires it be from the lowest level, and in this case, would be a cleric (divine) spell. But, for using the scroll itself, it doesn't matter as to who can use it (it can be used by arcane or divine casters.)
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While alchemists may not be able to craft wands, crafters from other classes can add spells from the alchemist list to their spell list. Samsarans with the Mystic Past Life alternate racial trait and Pathfinder Savants, for example, can choose to add alchemical allocation to their spell list and craft spell trigger items accordingly. I've actually played a character in a home game that did just that.
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While alchemists may not be able to craft wands, crafters from other classes can add spells from the alchemist list to their spell list. Samsarans with the Mystic Past Life alternate racial trait and Pathfinder Savants, for example, can choose to add alchemical allocation to their spell list and craft spell trigger items accordingly. I've actually played a character in a home game that did just that.
Home game, perfectly fine. PFS, it's really a non-starter IMO.
If it's not on ANY real caster's spell list, then it's not available. If it is on a caster's spell list, you go by the wiz,cleric,druid first and any other caster second house rule.
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While alchemists may not be able to craft wands, crafters from other classes can add spells from the alchemist list to their spell list. Samsarans with the Mystic Past Life alternate racial trait and Pathfinder Savants, for example, can choose to add alchemical allocation to their spell list and craft spell trigger items accordingly. I've actually played a character in a home game that did just that.Home game, perfectly fine. PFS, it's really a non-starter IMO.
If it's not on ANY real caster's spell list, then it's not available. If it is on a caster's spell list, you go by the wiz,cleric,druid first and any other caster second house rule.
Agreed. If PFS was going to allow every single corner case like that, then there wouldn't be rules. Just because it can appear on a single spell list for a single unique caster, doesn't mean it is on the spell list for every other caster.
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Peculiar qualifications for magic items are nothing new. In order to craft certain staves, for example, you need either a crafter who's multiclassed in a very peculiar way, several crafters cooperating for the weeks it takes to make the items, or one crafter who's altered his spell list. To make wands and scrolls of race-specific spells (like blend or blessings of luck and resolve), you need a crafter with a specific combination of race and class. Compared to those, requiring a crafter to be of a specific race or of a Pathfinder Society-specific prestige class really isn't that unusual.
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Peculiar qualifications for magic items are nothing new. In order to craft certain staves, for example, you need either a crafter who's multiclassed in a very peculiar way, several crafters cooperating for the weeks it takes to make the items, or one crafter who's altered his spell list. To make wands and scrolls of race-specific spells (like blend or blessings of luck and resolve), you need a crafter with a specific combination of race and class. Compared to those, requiring a crafter to be of a specific race or of a Pathfinder Society-specific prestige class really isn't that unusual.
It is actually quite easy for a dedicated crafter to ignore prerequisites when crafting (such as spells available). It only adds +5 to the Spellcraft or Craft DC for each prereq not met. With a starting DC of 5+CL it is not too hard to ignore some or even all of the crafting requirements other than the feat.
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There's another line after that bit about the only exception on not needing a requirement being the feat. It actually adds another requirement for certain items (such as wands and scrolls).
The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
You NEED someone able to cast the spell you're making a scroll, wand or potion of. You can't cast a formulae, as it's not a spell.
Alchemists can break this rule concerning potions, only because they have special rules in regards to making them in their class write up.
Brew Potion (Ex): At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
Without that, they could not take brew potion or create potions of their formulae.
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Or they could be a master crafter with craft woodworking.
That would change nothing in terms of the recent discussion...
Master Craftsman
Your superior crafting skills allow you to create simple magic items.
Prerequisites: 5 ranks in any Craft or Profession skill.
Benefit: Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. You receive a +2 bonus on your chosen Craft or Profession skill. Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirements (see the magic item creation rules in Magic Items). You cannot use this feat to create any spell-trigger or spell-activation item.
Normal: Only spellcasters can qualify for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats
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drat.
FAQ it. See if that's supposed to keep wands of alchemist spells from being illegal.
There IS a FAQ stating alchemists don't count as casters for creating things like wands/scrolls. It's linked 5th post in.
And bolded for clarification. For alchemists they're formulae, not spells. They're mixed in on spell lists to save space, but reading the Alchemist class tells you there is a distinct difference between the two. Spell users can not learn formulae from Alchemists, but Alchemists can create a formula from studying a magical spell. If an entry is only ever for a formula, then a spell caster can't learn it.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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A wand of alchemical allocation is so damn cheap, and can be abused with quite a number of high CL potions out there.
Removing the option to buy it as a wand, seems like a positive development - if it was ever legal.
Clarification would be appreciated, if only for PFS. Just like we don't account for wands crafted by rangers, we should not account for other unusual corner cases.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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drat.
FAQ it. See if that's supposed to keep wands of alchemist spells from being illegal.
There IS a FAQ stating alchemists don't count as casters for creating things like wands/scrolls. It's linked 5th post in.
And bolded for clarification. For alchemists they're formulae, not spells. They're mixed in on spell lists to save space, but reading the Alchemist class tells you there is a distinct difference between the two. Spell users can not learn formulae from Alchemists, but Alchemists can create a formula from studying a magical spell. If an entry is only ever for a formula, then a spell caster can't learn it.
The alchemical affinity arcane discovery from Magical Marketplace lets a wizard learn spells from an alchemist's formula book (if they are on the wizard and alchemist list).
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Well, we DO account for wands crafted by rangers if they're the only ones that can make it.
You know, that's something I thought about last night. We can buy wands of paladin-only or bard-only spells, so that complicates things. Granted, those classes are at least able to craft their own wands, but it's still enough to give me second thoughts.
Edit: From the guide: "All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list."
I don't know if that lets alchemist formula get turned into wands, my instinct would be no since formula are different than spells (albeit mostly just by name). But, it's murky enough that an answer by Mike or John might help clarify things for us.
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That is definitely incorrect (unless there's been an FAQ or something), since the Investigator's writeup says they prepare spells "like an Alchemist".
The Alchemist's Alchemy (Su) ability contains this line:
An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so).
That line is not present in the Investigator's Alchemy (Su) ability.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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That is definitely incorrect (unless there's been an FAQ or something), since the Investigator's writeup says they prepare spells "like an Alchemist".The use of spell trigger items has nothing to do with how someone prepares spells.
Read what The Fox quoted above ^
As it stands now, Investigators cannot use wands like Alchemists can, due to the missing language in the Alchemy class ability description.
I have gone into this in detal here.
My conclusion is that investigators can use wands in exactly the same way as alchemists. The difference in text is because the alchemists' class abilities were reorganized when that text was recycled for the investigator. However, the alchemist and investigator "cast" spells in the same way (through extracts) and the ability to use wands is a side effect of that.
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For what it's worth, I actually believe that Ascalaphus and Nefreet are correct. My post above was in deference to the position taken by others who disagree.
Locally, we have one group of GMs who are very RAWr, and I'm sure they would not let Investigators use wands. (They don't allow arcanists to cast spells from sources other than the Core Rulebook and those that post-date the ACG, for example.)
I guess I'm trying to say, YMMV.
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That is definitely incorrect (unless there's been an FAQ or something), since the Investigator's writeup says they prepare spells "like an Alchemist".The use of spell trigger items has nothing to do with how someone prepares spells.
Read what The Fox quoted above ^
As it stands now, Investigators cannot use wands like Alchemists can, due to the missing language in the Alchemy class ability description.
I have gone into this in detal here.
My conclusion is that investigators can use wands in exactly the same way as alchemists. The difference in text is because the alchemists' class abilities were reorganized when that text was recycled for the investigator. However, the alchemist and investigator "cast" spells in the same way (through extracts) and the ability to use wands is a side effect of that.
Thank you for that.
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(They don't allow arcanists to cast spells from sources other than the Core Rulebook and those that post-date the ACG, for example.)Why in the world not?
Spells: An arcanist casts arcane spells drawn from the
sorcerer/wizard spell list, presented in Chapter 10 of the Core
Rulebook.
I am NOT advocating that position. I think there's a circle of hell reserved for that level of rules lawyering chicanery.
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(They don't allow arcanists to cast spells from sources other than the Core Rulebook and those that post-date the ACG, for example.)Why in the world not?
Spells: An arcanist casts arcane spells drawn from the
sorcerer/wizard spell list, presented in Chapter 10 of the Core
Rulebook.I am NOT advocating that position. I think there's a circle of hell reserved for that level of rules lawyering chicanery.
I don't want to bash them too hard. I like these guys. We just have this one disagreement that is really frustrating me. It means that I am playing my arcanist in Emerald Spire in a home game instead. She's still fun, but it would be nice to get her out of the dungeon crawl and into the more diverse encounters where she belongs.
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(They don't allow arcanists to cast spells from sources other than the Core Rulebook and those that post-date the ACG, for example.)Why in the world not?
Oh, I'm sure I won't need---
Spells: An arcanist casts arcane spells drawn from the
sorcerer/wizard spell list, presented in Chapter 10 of the Core
Rulebook.
OWWW!!!
You know, what's weird is that that's not what it says in the PRD. I had to look in my pdf to see what you were talking about.
Spells: An arcanist casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
But I'm sure that same level of rules lawyering would insist that the prd wasn't a legal rules source.
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But I'm sure that same level of rules lawyering would insist that the prd wasn't a legal rules source.
Well its accurate but it doesn't count as ownership, since you have to own the arcanist to play it only the advanced class guide is legal proof of ownership and THAT limits you to the core rule book for arcanist spells...
*pours shots*
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Well, we DO account for wands crafted by rangers if they're the only ones that can make it.
Yeah, but only if the spell isn't on the druid list, and please don't remind me - I am perfectly aware of the legality of the potion of strong jaw, and suspect that this ruling was only made to annoy people like me. ^^