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So, in Pathfinder Unchained, Rogues get Finesse Training which lets them use Dexterity instead of Strength for a few select weapons of their choice. Let's say the weapon that the Rogue chooses is an Elven Curved Blade, which is a 2-handed weapon which can be used with Weapon Finesse.
Would the Rogue add 1.5x Dexterity on the damage, as is the case with normal 2-handed weapons that use Strength?
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No.
I don't see why not, honestly. It just straight up replaces Strength, unlike other sources of Dex to damage that specifically deny 1.5x multiplying.
It certainly works in my game. A fun Elven Branched Spear build I have relies on it.
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(sigh)... I wonder if this system is circling the drain.
1.5 Dex makes no sense on any level really. That being said, do what you want in your home brew.
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(sigh)... I wonder if this system is circling the drain.
1.5 Dex makes no sense on any level really. That being said, do what you want in your home brew.
Change! New things! THE HOOOOORRRRROOOORR!
:)Magic Missile makes no sense.
It is a fool's errand to overtly apply "logic" to a fantasy game, and press it even further, for non-casters.
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It is a fool's errand to overtly apply "logic" to a fantasy game, and press it even further, for non-casters.
No it isn't. The existence of one totally fantasy element doesn't require every other element to be as totally fantasy.
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It replaces strength, no proviso's, no conditions, no limitations. Until there is an FAQ/errata to the contrary it is a direct 1:1 replacement. If you would get 1.5 strength you get 1.5 dex.
As I only see "she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll" and NOT "This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons" as Agile enchantment does, I see no problem with adding 1.5 Dex to damage with an elven curve blade or 2-handing a rapier.
Rapiers can't be two-handed to get 1.5 STR, so if DEX is replacing STR they can't get 1.5 DEX either.
Well, to quote the relevant chunk of text (rest is simply about when you select weapons, blah):
Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Since unlike agile, where 2H weapons are called out as not working, it isn't here, one can only assume yes it works. Which isn't that bad. No worse than Dex-to-Damage in general. It takes some levels of not-bad Rogue but that's really a wash.
(sigh)... I wonder if this system is circling the drain.
Maybe? Define metrics for "circling the drain" and a discussion exists.
Well, to quote the relevant chunk of text (rest is simply about when you select weapons, blah):
Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier.Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.Since unlike agile, where 2H weapons are called out as not working, it isn't here, one can only assume yes it works. Which isn't that bad. No worse than Dex-to-Damage in general. It takes some levels of not-bad Rogue but that's really a wash.
(sigh)... I wonder if this system is circling the drain.Maybe? Define metrics for "circling the drain" and a discussion exists.
I would not say one can "only" assume that. You are inferring based on another ability which can lead to a correct answer, but it an also just mean the author of one ability has a different way of writing than the author of another ability.
The rogue ability does not say it replaces strength in every way with regard to damage. It only says it gives dex to damage, which I think is good enough since it removes the need for double slice.
No it isn't. The existence of one totally fantasy element doesn't require every other element to be as totally fantasy.
It is a fool's errand to overtly apply "logic" to a fantasy game, and press it even further, for non-casters.
It is game balance troll and not "logic" that is the problem. Dex to damage already skews the balance of the attributes and this would just make it worse.
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For goodness sake I'm tired of hearing about dexterity to damage what I want to know is where my freaking strength to hit with thrown is?
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It is game balance troll and not "logic" that is the problem. Dex to damage already skews the balance of the attributes and this would just make it worse.No it isn't. The existence of one totally fantasy element doesn't require every other element to be as totally fantasy.
It is a fool's errand to overtly apply "logic" to a fantasy game, and press it even further, for non-casters.
Since a post got deleted:
Dex to Damage skews the balance for some classes. SOME. And it leaves most classes intact.
Dex to Damage has existed now for a long time, and even back in 3.5 (where Dex to Damage was more available), Strength was still the go-to-stat for most Melee characters.
Making 1.5x Dex to Damage for EVERYTHING would be crazy, yes, and could cause some issues, but there are three reasons why it's okay for a single Class to have this unique quality:
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This requires a 3-level dive into Rogue in order to get, and the weapon in question needs to be Finesse-able anyway.
By default, that means that only the Elven Curve Blade and Sawtoothed Sabre are the only two weapons for which this applies.
To most players, a 3-level dive simply to get 1.5x Dex to Damage on a two-handed weapon is more they're willing to take - a good QUARTER of their career, and for simply one of two weapons, BOTH of which also require Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Effortless Lace notwithstanding).
If you don't want to play a Tengu or Elf, you either have to burn EWP as your Racial Bonus Feat or 1st level Character Feat to gain the ECB or STS, or you have to play a Wanderer Monk.
You're either stuck with 2 non-Human races, a Human Race that's effectively losing a Feat Slot, or you're diving into FOUR Class Levels just to get 1.5x Dex to Damage on a two-handed weapon... which, in the end, IS really nice, because the ECB is very solid, but ultimately takes very long to get online if you're playing from lv1; it's much faster to go Swashbuckler 1 for Dex to Damage on one-handed Slashing Weapons and call it a day.
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Even with the 1.5x bonus for Two-Handing a Dex weapon, there are so few things that pump Dex to make it change how most warriors operate, whereas there are TONS of things that pump Strength: Abyssal Bloodline, Size, Rage, Mutagen... it's possible for a character to hit 50! Strength or more in PFS; Dex tops out in the mid-30s
Reduce Person and the like do pump Dex via Size, yes, but also at the cost of the weapon's damage dice being reduced; conversely, a Strength-based warrior gets a boost from Enlarge Person both to the weapon they're wielding AND to their personal Str, adding even more damage altogether than Reduce does to a Dex warrior.
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The Rogue has suffered from a Catch-22 of "Rogue is bad, I don't want to play it, put Rogue stuff on other classes! (Devs put Rogue stuff on other classes so parties have those options) Rogue stuff is on other classes, why would I want to play a Rogue?" for years.
Being the ONLY thing in the entire game to allow 1.5x Dex gives it something unique.
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What I'm saying is, that while I agree that it doesn't make an ENORMOUS amount of logical sense, it's a trick of ONE class, isn't replicated by any other option in the game, and it is hardly going to warp the game so that EVERYONE takes 3 Rogue levels for Dex to Damage 1.5x.
If your dexterity [the swiftness and precision of form in your strikes] is adding to the damage your weapon would normally do, and using two hands multiplies the power of a normal strike by 1.5, then naturally it's going to do so for dexterity as well. That's a given.
Well one can easily see that using both hands allows you to apply greater force. It is harder to see that using two hands would make you faster and more precise.
~15 people replied with dissenting opinions, 2 hit the FAQ button. Come on guys.
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Next up, Dex for Encumbrance.
-Skeld
I think that's when you sleight of hand your gear in and out of the barbarian's backpack while raging so the barbarian will carry your gear without noticing. And with that dex now fully replaces strength.
More on topic will say that I wouldn't allow x1.5 dex to damage unless it was explicitly given in the text. I'm not against dex to damage but I do think that there should be some meaningful ways where investing in strength gives you an advantage even if it is a marginal one.
If your dexterity [the swiftness and precision of form in your strikes] is adding to the damage your weapon would normally do, and using two hands multiplies the power of a normal strike by 1.5, then naturally it's going to do so for dexterity as well. That's a given.Well one can easily see that using both hands allows you to apply greater force. It is harder to see that using two hands would make you faster and more precise.
More precise, maybe.
Actually, more precise very much so.
The problem is that while manipulating something with two hands often leads to increased stability and precision, it significantly reduces total maneuverability.
The argument of Dex to Damage vs Str to Damage can be demonstrated by two popular sword sparring styles: Kendo and Fencing.
Kendo is about speed and force of the strike, and both come entirely from strength; a shinai wielded in both hands is more accurate (which is important, as the only places you can strike are Men, or Head, Te, or Hands/Lower Arms, and Do, or Belly), hits much harder than a shinai wielded in one hand, and is much harder to stop without similar force.
Fencing is also about speed, but much more about precision and deftness. In order to strike your opponent, lunges are needed, but also the ability to dodge your opponent while twisting your foil around their defenses in order to score a hit anywhere on a legal zone. In this, it's much more focused on manual dexterity, and wielding an foil two-handed would only reduce its maneuverability, even IF wielding the sword with both hands would allow you to hit a very specific point more accurately.
Obviously there are different styles to both Fencing and Kendo: Foil, Epee, and Sabre for fencing; Kendo (Shinai), Kenjutsu (Bokuto), and Aikido (Bokuto, Tanto, Jo, and Unarmed). But the default versions (Kendo vs Foil Fencing) illustrate Str Melee vs Dex Melee and how two-handing vs one-handing works, based on their focus.
We're also talking about exotic weapons here: the aldori dueling sword, the elven branched spear, the elven curved blade, the spiked chain, and possibly the estoc (haven't read up on that one yet). So there will be a feat cost or racial ability investment (since rogues don't get all martial weapons).
Every other finessable weapon is either light (which can't be two handed) or specifically says it can't be used in two hands (rapier, scimitar in Dervish Dance feat, etc.).
Also, technically the aldori dueling sword is the only one of the five that specifically says you still get 1.5 times strength when you two hand it. Now, one would assume the others would also get 1.5 times strength, because they are specifically two-handed weapons that don't say that they don't...
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I think its pretty obvious that you would get 1.5x Dex to damage with a two-handed weapon and finesse training.
In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. If any effect would prevent the rogue from adding her Strength modifier to the damage roll, she does not add her Dexterity modifier.
First of all, it's a replacement effect. It says INSTEAD. For those quoting Agile Weapon Property, you can't compare the two. One is a class ability, the other is a weapon property. They have two different rules texts and neither makes mention of the other. Its Apples and Oranges. No connection. Also, just to appease those comparing the two, Agile says you may choose. Its not a replacement. You can't choose with Finesse Training.
Also, for anyone who still have doubts, how would you explain damage on an off-hand attack when two-weapon fighting with your finesse weapon?
When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus.
You don't get full Dex damage on your off-hand weapon, you get 1/2 times. That's because Dex replaces Strength. I think it is clearly written. Unless an FAQ or specific text states otherwise, you apply 1.5x Dex to damage with Finesse Training and 2-handed weapons that apply.
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And I respectfully disagree, thatcheriliff. Saying a character adds their dex modifier to the damage roll instead of strength is not the same as saying they add their dex modifier in the same way that they add strength.
I have no problem with dex to damage and in a lot of ways it's necessary to make a dex based build that doesn't have access to magic viable. At the same time I see no reason that dex to damage should be as good as strength to damage and unless I see a faq to the contrary as a GM I will continue to treat it as inferior. And really there's a good chance that if a faq comes out saying that 1.5 dex to damage exists there's a good chance I'll ignore the faq outside of PFS because it's unnecessary.
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And I respectfully disagree, thatcheriliff. Saying a character adds their dex modifier to the damage roll instead of strength is not the same as saying they add their dex modifier in the same way that they add strength.
I have no problem with dex to damage and in a lot of ways it's necessary to make a dex based build that doesn't have access to magic viable. At the same time I see no reason that dex to damage should be as good as strength to damage and unless I see a faq to the contrary as a GM I will continue to treat it as inferior. And really there's a good chance that if a faq comes out saying that 1.5 dex to damage exists there's a good chance I'll ignore the faq outside of PFS because it's unnecessary.
How would you explain dex to damage on an off-hand weapon when two weapon fighting with your finesse weapon? Full dex on off-hand attack? (see quoted rules in previous post)
I wouldn't, I have to admit this is one of the few cases where I choose to interpret the rules as I think they should be and the only reason I at all care all about what Paizo says on the matter is because I play a fair bit of PFS.
The rogue ability does not say it replaces strength in every way with regard to damage. It only says it gives dex to damage, which I think is good enough since it removes the need for double slice.
It says that it gives Dexterity instead of Strength. To me, "instead" is a pretty important word, which causes me to believe you replace Dex with Str in the normal calculation. So, 1/2 Str becomes 1/2 Dex. 1.5x Str becomes 1.5x Dex. 2x Strength is 2x Dex. It just replaces the stat, not the math.
However, I will agree that either reading gives the rogue nice things (i.e. 1.5x damage with the Elven Curve Blade or Elven Branched Spear or no need for Double Slice when dual wielding), I just dislike dual wielding aesthetically and I happen to be a fan of both of those Elven weapons, so, I hope the FAQ, if it comes, favors my reading.
Of course, my biggest fear is someone at Paizo panicking: "OH NO! Dex can't be this good! The FAQ is that you don't get 1.5x Dex when using a weapon in two hands, but you still deal .5x Dex with your offhand." Or worse, "...and double slice doesn't increase the Dex damage you deal with the offhand because it specifies strength."
1.5 Dex makes no sense on any level really.
Any amount of Dex to damage makes no kind of sense on any level, so, the idea of 1.5x is no more alienating to me than the base idea is.
It's called heavy armor./shrug
Can we have strength to AC yet?
Con to AC makes more sense - an ability that adds your Con to Natural AC would be fitting, honestly.
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I'll chime in and say that I think it's 1xDex damage on 2-handers and 1/2 Dex damage on your offhand. the way I read it is you add your dexterity modifier instead of strength. That means you get dexterity, but there's no indicator you get any more than that. 1/2 on offhand is because you get your dexterity, but something prevents you from getting half of your strength, so it prevents you from getting half of your dexterity, as well.
Actually a strict reading with my interpretation could say you get 1xDex+1/2xStr on two-handed weapons. I'll have to think about that...
The new Brutal Stalker archetype for Path of War's Stalker gets Str to AC and Reflex saves (1/2 at level 2, full at level 6). It's pretty cool./shrug
Can we have strength to AC yet?
Of course, you can't withstand the full might of bulging oiled muscles. Strength to everything, strength overcomes all.
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One way uses Power (STR) and the other uses Finesse (DEX). It won't work in PFS without a FAQ ruling or updated printing, in regards to the Unchained Rogue's Finesse training allowing 1.5 DEX mod on Two-handing a weapon, Power Attacking Two-handed or Horn of the Criosphinx.
Flavor text wise it doesn't fit, but whatever your GM wants to do, go with it. But for PFS play its going to be a No, until Paizo clarifies definitively.
Who says? Reference to a ruling? I didn't know you made the rules for PFS.
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Who says? Reference to a ruling? I didn't know you made the rules for PFS.One way uses Power (STR) and the other uses Finesse (DEX). It won't work in PFS without a FAQ ruling or updated printing, in regards to the Unchained Rogue's Finesse training allowing 1.5 DEX mod on Two-handing a weapon, Power Attacking Two-handed or Horn of the Criosphinx.
Flavor text wise it doesn't fit, but whatever your GM wants to do, go with it. But for PFS play its going to be a No, until Paizo clarifies definitively.
I detect some hostility there.
Anyway, PFS requires Rules as Written, no deviations.
No hostility. So by your logic then I guess I get full DEX to damage on off hand attacks until there is an errata or FAQ. Since it mentions nowhere that I add half dex damage and the rules as written say I get DEX to damage on my melee attacks