So I have two players who have had a falling out

[Dave Justus]

It seems pretty clear to me that, right or wrong, the OP doesn't like what A is doing and totally sympathizes with T.

Based on that, I would suggest that he realize he probably can't deal objectively with the situation in game, and that most likely the simplest solution that will make the most people happy is to remove A from the game.

Whether or not A is 'right' or 'deserves it' doesn't really matter. At least 2 in the group seem to have a severe problem with A, and that probably won't change any time soon, so if the game wants to go on, A needs to leave.

The only other useful alternative is simply end the game altogether, which depending on the nature of the group might be preferable.

[thejeff]

Dave Justus wrote:

It seems pretty clear to me that, right or wrong, the OP doesn't like what A is doing and totally sympathizes with T.

Based on that, I would suggest that he realize he probably can't deal objectively with the situation in game, and that most likely the simplest solution that will make the most people happy is to remove A from the game.

I'm not as sure of that. The first post seems to lean in that direction, but later ones seem more critical of T and sympathetic to A.

Quote:

I think he is heavily emphasizing the idea that someone can be as weird as they want, but that they don't have to scream it from the banisters of their social and professional hubs.

Quote:

When I talked to Person A he made it clear that he isn't annoyed with transpeople, but instead he is annoyed with people (in general) who make excuses for why things are not going well for them. From what I gathered, he is just tired of listening to people who don't have their acts together complain about and invent reasons why they can't get their acts together.

Quote:

Person T emphasizes her Transgenderism all the time, uses the group, most notably and formerly Person A, as her outlet for her frustrations.

[MechE_]

It is on occasion necessary for a GM to mediate such issues - this is an unfortunate requirement of us. In your specific case, I can see both parties concerns here and without personally experiencing it, I can't say to what extent each player is in the right and in the wrong. (Though generally in these situations, each player is wrong to some extent.)

My advice
Sit them down outside of a game session, just you and the two of them and have an honest conversation, starting it off by telling each of them to explain how they "feel" about the recent tension in their friendship. If necessary, begin by sharing how the tensions during the gaming session have made you "feel". Continue asking them "feel" questions and try to open a dialogue. (This sounds ultra cheesy, but neither person can argue how the other "feels", so using that word reduces the experience from argument to sharing of emotions... It's a standard move in relationship counseling.) If your group is the kind that doesn't mind a few libations, I suggest starting the conversation off with a single cool drink in each person's hand to relax the mood just a bit.

After some (hopefully positive) conversation between the three of you, simply explain to them that the tension between the two of them is unsustainable and if it continues, you will be forced to remove one of them. Stress that this is NOT the desired outcome and that you enjoy playing with each of them and would like to continue doing so. But also raise the point that the current situation is sapping the fun from the game and that is unfair to the group as a whole. Conclude this brief warning by pointing out that you're sorry to see their friendship deteriorate, but that being friends is not necessary for both of them to continue playing, they just need to dial the tension way down and take it easy on each other.

[alexd1976]

Using others as an outlet for their frustrations is fine, but not wanting to participate in a given conversation is an acceptable reaction to that...

If person T is pushing, and person A is expressing a desire to not participate, person T is in the wrong.

The reasons behind it, in this case, don't seem relevant in any way.

No one is obligated to continue being friends with someone, especially if that someone is trying to force you to do something you don't want to do.

Ultimately though, you didn't really give enough detail to 'take sides' in this...

I feel that person T is in the wrong, as they sound like they are impinging on someone elses personal freedoms, while person A is just trying to not get involved...

If someone started screaming at me that I wasn't sensitive enough about their life choices, I would point out that they were the one screaming.

If they kept screaming, I would stop talking to them.

[thejeff]

alexd1976 wrote:

Using others as an outlet for their frustrations is fine, but not wanting to participate in a given conversation is an acceptable reaction to that...

If person T is pushing, and person A is expressing a desire to not participate, person T is in the wrong.

The reasons behind it, in this case, don't seem relevant in any way.

No one is obligated to continue being friends with someone, especially if that someone is trying to force you to do something you don't want to do.

Ultimately though, you didn't really give enough detail to 'take sides' in this...

I feel that person T is in the wrong, as they sound like they are impinging on someone elses personal freedoms, while person A is just trying to not get involved...

If someone started screaming at me that I wasn't sensitive enough about their life choices, I would point out that they were the one screaming.

If they kept screaming, I would stop talking to them.

OTOH, if I was trans and a close friend and (former?) ally starting telling me I was a freak and all the problems trans people had were their own fault and we just needed to "improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in", I'd be pretty damn upset with them too.

[alexd1976]

thejeff wrote:

alexd1976 wrote:

Using others as an outlet for their frustrations is fine, but not wanting to participate in a given conversation is an acceptable reaction to that...

If person T is pushing, and person A is expressing a desire to not participate, person T is in the wrong.

The reasons behind it, in this case, don't seem relevant in any way.

No one is obligated to continue being friends with someone, especially if that someone is trying to force you to do something you don't want to do.

Ultimately though, you didn't really give enough detail to 'take sides' in this...

I feel that person T is in the wrong, as they sound like they are impinging on someone elses personal freedoms, while person A is just trying to not get involved...

If someone started screaming at me that I wasn't sensitive enough about their life choices, I would point out that they were the one screaming.

If they kept screaming, I would stop talking to them.

OTOH, if I was trans and a close friend and (former?) ally starting telling me I was a freak and all the problems trans people had were their own fault and we just needed to "improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in", I'd be pretty damn upset with them too.

Agreed. That does seem a bit dickish, however... everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Person A said something super rude and bigoted, but that doesn't give person T the right to 'go off' or be rude forever and ever.

They can work past it, or not, but neither has any right to be mean to the other.

In the context of a game, I'm having trouble understanding how it would be relevant, maybe this post belongs somewhere else?

Not trying to be rude, it just seems odd...

[SunshineGrrrl]

Just a point I'd like to bring up in this discussion. The fact my game group largely stayed with me and were there as friends to listen when some troubling things happened, probably saved my life. Transition isn't easy and it involves an awareness of things you never really paid attention to. And I've known at least one person personally who committed suicide because she felt she didn't have anyone to talk to. Had I known, at the time, I could have been there for her and maybe things would have been different. Just my two cents.

[thejeff]

alexd1976 wrote:

In the context of a game, I'm having trouble understanding how it would be relevant, maybe this post belongs somewhere else?

Not trying to be rude, it just seems odd...

Unlike how some seem to have interpreted it, to me this seems only incidentally "in the context of a game". This is a group social problem that happens to involve a group that's playing an RPG.

[Kalindlara]

SunshineGrrrl wrote:

Just a point I'd like to bring up in this discussion. The fact my game group largely stayed with me and were there as friends to listen when some troubling things happened, probably saved my life. Transition isn't easy and it involves an awareness of things you never really paid attention to. And I've known at least one person personally who committed suicide because she felt she didn't have anyone to talk to. Had I known, at the time, I could have been there for her and maybe things would have been different. Just my two cents.

They only let me favorite this post once. :)

[Lamontius]

T&A thread

[Chris Lambertz]

Temporarily locking. May be actually locking, but need to sift through posts.

EDIT: Unlocking. The thread title has been changed and some baiting/derailing/malicious posts and the responses to them have been removed. Be cognizant that everyone's gaming experience is different (sometimes it's an intimate group of friends, sometimes it's just a meeting for gaming only, or whatever) and finger pointing/pointed comments about people whom you don't actually know probably isn't going to result in anything productive. Also, please take a moment to revisit the Community Guidelines before posting.

[Muad'Dib]

I'm curious what's going on with A because I can certainly relate to the worst of his behavior.

When stressed or having life changes of my own, I just can't deal with other peoples drama. During these times I tend to not be open with my own struggles with friends & family and quietly just try and get through it. I also tend to be short with people because I just don't want to hear their problems. "Short" is a nice way of saying blunt or rude. There is something about it personal stress that seemingly opens a portal sucking all my empathy into the aether.

-MD

[KenderKin]

Hey what happened to my post suggesting counseling/therapy?

I was only pointing out that telling the same stories over and over doesn't promote growth, sure it makes you feel cared for...supported, (meeting to meeting) but it does nothing to actually deal with the issues and/or really help with the problem(s); that your friends may be ill equipped to handle?

Social supports are great, but they are no substitute for actual professional help. One way to tell your over-whelmed is if your stuff also overwhelms others around you and is destructive to your relationships.

[thejeff]

KenderKin wrote:

Hey what happened to my post suggesting counseling/therapy?

I was only pointing out that telling the same stories over and over doesn't promote growth, sure it makes you feel cared for...supported, (meeting to meeting) but it does nothing to actually deal with the issues and/or really help with the problem(s); that your friends may be ill equipped to handle?

Social supports are great, but they are no substitute for actual professional help. One way to tell your over-whelmed is if your stuff also overwhelms others around you and is destructive to your relationships.

I'm just going to say one more time that it's not at all clear from the OP's posts that that is what was happening. The change in A's attitude doesn't seem to have been "I can't deal with this anymore" triggered by T's complaining, but some event in his own life, apparently triggered by an enlightening conversation with some lawyers, doctors and former military people at a fur con (the mind boggles).

[KenderKin]

Not to insult the OP or anyone else, but what each persons experiences are subjective, and the internal processes may not match everything that they are saying.

The Op has a subjective view of the situation and has described it based upon that view. We can either assume the OP is right and has given a full picture that might lead us to some (sage) advice or conclusions.

Someone pointed out that it is very important for a person to feel supported by his/her peers and that was not happening anymore.

I suggested that support be provided elsewhere (replaced) and the game must go on!

[thejeff]

KenderKin wrote:

Not to insult the OP or anyone else, but what each persons experiences are subjective, and the internal processes may not match everything that they are saying.

The Op has a subjective view of the situation and has described it based upon that view. We can either assume the OP is right and has given a full picture that might lead us to some (sage) advice or conclusions.

Someone pointed out that it is very important for a person to feel supported by his/her peers and that was not happening anymore.

I suggested that support be provided elsewhere (replaced) and the game must go on!

That I certainly agree with, just pointing out that it wasn't necessarily T's stuff that was proving destructive. '

It may also be that A is not merely no longer supportive, but actually toxic and the game shouldn't go on - at least not with both of them in it.
But that depends on the actual situation, which as you say, might not be as described by the OP.

I'd also say that therapists can't replace actual friends and social support groups. Both are good, but not replacements for each other.

[Rub-Eta]

From what I've gathered, the problem is that player T is using your game sessions as venting time about her life and player A is the most vocal about his frustration over it.
What you can do as a by stander to secure your game is to talk to both players.
Tell player T that it can get frustrating to be the vent operator at every game session (if that's the case). Make sure to tell player T that you (and player A, if it's true) do empathize with her but that you are not the right people to help her, with whatever she's venting about, because you can't.
Tell player A that he needs to be supportive and understanding and not get angry with a depressed person (I do not know if that's the state of player T at all, but if that's the case, know that it's hard to express one self when in such a state).
The one that do not understand that keeping the conflict going is not an option, or think that not solving it is one, is the one to step out of the game voluntarily, whether aware of it or not.

[Doomed Hero]

Hopefully Person A will realize that it is entirely possible to advocate personal responsibility and also be sympathetic to the hardships of others.

These things are not mutually exclusive. Marginalizing people who are having a harder time getting their lives together isn't a very good way to foster changes. For the most part, tough love isn't very loving.

[thejeff]

Doomed Hero wrote:

Hopefully Person A will realize that it is entirely possible to advocate personal responsibility and also be sympathetic to the hardships of others.

These things are not mutually exclusive. Marginalizing people who are having a harder time getting their lives together isn't a very good way to foster changes. For the most part, tough love isn't very loving.

Especially when a large part of the reason they don't have their lives together isn't really under their control.

A trans person can't decide not to be trans or decide that people aren't going to be prejudiced against them anymore. There are reasons trans people have a very high suicide rate and it isn't that "refuse to take responsibility for their problems". It's that they face problems the rest of us don't. On top of the problems the rest of us do.

[Talonhawke]

thejeff wrote:

OTOH, if I was trans and a close friend and (former?) ally starting telling me I was a freak and all the problems trans people had were their own fault and we just needed to "improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in", I'd be pretty damn upset with them too.

We don't know for sure if the freak comment was made to T, about T, or even the actual wording used by A. Also the second comment about image may not have been directed at the Transgenderism. I have a good high school friend who laments not being able to get a job teaching elementary school (what his masters is in) but he refuses to cut his waist length hair, trim his scraggly beard or remove his 6 facial piercings. I'm not saying its right but I have told him those things are holding him back. For all we know T could have that kind of alternate look that holds them back from getting a job.

[thejeff]

Talonhawke wrote:

thejeff wrote:

OTOH, if I was trans and a close friend and (former?) ally starting telling me I was a freak and all the problems trans people had were their own fault and we just needed to "improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in", I'd be pretty damn upset with them too.

We don't know for sure if the freak comment was made to T, about T, or even the actual wording used by A. Also the second comment about image may not have been directed at the Transgenderism. I have a good high school friend who laments not being able to get a job teaching elementary school (what his masters is in) but he refuses to cut his waist length hair, trim his scraggly beard or remove his 6 facial piercings. I'm not saying its right but I have told him those things are holding him back. For all we know T could have that kind of alternate look that holds them back from getting a job.

The full quote for that second comment

Quote:

Player A has determined that the plight of trans people is their problem, and that he simply does not care in any way shape for form about them. From his perspective if they improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in.

"They" in that second sentence pretty much has to refer to "trans people".

I agree that "freaks" could theoretically refer to something else and it is of course possible that the OP isn't accurately relating A's opinions. In fact, for all we know, the OP is trolling and made the whole thing up out of thin air.

People really do seem to be bending over backwards to make excuses for A though.

[Jaelithe]

Player A's new perspective doesn't give him the need to declare an entire group of people in need of getting their act together simply because he's had an "epiphany" of sorts. Guess what, A? Your enlightenment applies to you. Stop inflicting it on everyone else. There is no zealot like a convert.

Player T needs to stop using a social gathering as a support group, at least during play. (And if you've allowed this thus far, apologize and nip it in the bud, now.) Calling someone "scum" is a good way to get you thrown out of the group and/or your ass kicked.

Seems to me that if either shows any additional lack of self-control, they need a big fat timeout.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, the gamestyle attacks, are gone. The terrible title is gone.

This seems like the thread is headed back toward actually helping the OP.

Thanks Chris!

[DevinTowerwood]

And this continues! ... sadly, and yet nicely.

However, it's been a while since we've heard from the OP. Most of us seem to have varying feelings about Player A and Player T, but, unfortunately, a lot of that is going to be projection about how we feel about people /like/ them, so I don't think it's really helpful to the OP.

As a DM/friend, I think the most they can really do is get them to talk to each other, create a resolution for how they're going to act, and kick either/both of them out if they can't keep it up. For the actual issues of Player A's new behavior and Player T's persistent behavior, that boils down to a more personal level that we can't really make qualifications for.

I don't know how personally involved your players other than A and T are so I can't really tell if T's behavior would be considered appropriate to the rest of the group. I've had groups who specifically wanted campaigns for escapism and personal frustration and they were wonderful. I've also seen plenty of games and gaming groups that cannot effectively cope with outside conflicts coming into them.

So, OP: Are any of these tidbits from us helpful to you? Or can you give us any more information/background on your group so we can be more specific and therefore less likely to project our feelings onto them? Like, personally, it's really easy for me to sympathize with T and be angry at A, but with a step back I can realize the reason for A's behavior and even his harshness, and I can see how inappropriate some of T's actions are, especially generalizing a former friend in the way of 'Cis scum' because that can be . . . easy to do when you're hurt.

It might ultimately be the best decision to end the game, and try to involve your friends differently, or in different groups.

[Lemartes]

So furcon is what exactly? I am frightened.

Anyways, based on limited info it's a simple solution.

"Hey you two gaming time is for gaming nothing else so T...besides the weather no topics not related to gaming...and A...stop being a dick. Everyone understand? I have no time for crap I'm the DM I have places to describe and people to pretend to be! Now lets play some Fu^#&#& DnD!"

Well something like that......or TPK.

[Zova Lex]

Lemartes wrote:

So furcon is what exactly? I am frightened.

Anyways, based on limited info it's a simple solution.

"Hey you two gaming time is for gaming nothing else so T...besides the weather no topics not related to gaming...and A...stop being a dick. Everyone understand? I have no time for crap I'm the DM I have places to describe and people to pretend to be! Now lets play some Fu^#&#& Pathfinder!"

Well something like that......or TPK.

Fixed that for you.

[TarkXT]

Lemartes wrote:

So furcon is what exactly? I am frightened.

Are you sure you want this questioned answered?

The gentlest way to put it is that it's a hobby. One that seems tame but gets....incredibly weird, and often sexual.

[thejeff]

Lemartes wrote:

Anyways, based on limited info it's a simple solution.

"Hey you two gaming time is for gaming nothing else so T...besides the weather no topics not related to gaming...and A...stop being a dick. Everyone understand? I have no time for crap I'm the DM I have places to describe and people to pretend to be! Now lets play some Fu^#&#& DnD!"

Well something like that......or TPK.

If the problem is just they are interrupting the game, that would be a solution. Trying to ban all non-game talk throughout the entire social evening would be a big problem in most home games I've been in. There's always some chat and gossip and sometimes a bit of venting, before and after the game. Most of us don't have the chance to get together too often outside of the game and it's all that other stuff that keeps the friendships going.

Trying to get T to tone the angst level down a notch and maybe try to arrange other times when it is okay to vent, like you do for a friend going through rough times, might help. And getting A to back off on the "get your act together" riff at the same time would help as well.

It'll be hard though, since the two were apparently close and A's apparently completely changed his tune.

[Krensky]

Lemartes wrote:

So furcon is what exactly? I am frightened.

It's the largest (I think) furry convention in the US.

The furry hobby/subculture is sort of a mix of role playing (not typically the gaming sort, but not usually the bedroom sort either), acting, and cosplay. It starts at the weird (as in strange and different) end of the geek spectrum but can get really, really, really weird (heading into creepy and abnormal) very, very fast. Most are lovely people who enjoy dressing up in elaborate, mascot like costumes and pretending to be anthropomorphic animals of some sort or another though.

The flippant and dismissive comment here would be that if A is attending furcon he's on shaky ground calling other people weird or freaky.

[thejeff]

Krensky wrote:

Lemartes wrote:

So furcon is what exactly? I am frightened.

It's the largest (I think) furry convention in the US.

The furry hobby/subculture is sort of a mix of role playing (not typically the gaming sort, but not usually the bedroom sort either), acting, and cosplay. It starts at the weird (as in strange and different) end of the geek spectrum but can get really, really, really weird (heading into creepy and abnormal) very, very fast. Most are lovely people who enjoy dressing up in elaborate, mascot like costumes and pretending to be anthropomorphic animals of some sort or another though.

The flippant and dismissive comment here would be that if A is attending furcon he's on shaky ground calling other people weird or freaky.

Thus my earlier comment: " with some lawyers, doctors and former military people at a fur con (the mind boggles)."

Apparently his theory is that weird and freaky is fine as long as you keep it private. Be respectable in public to have a future.
Which, to me, has serious echoes of "Gays are fine as long as they stay in the closet. Why do they have to push their gayness on everyone?"

[DM Under The Bridge]

Osric the Vindictive wrote:

So one of my players, I'll call him Player A, has hit a moment in his life where he has moved beyond believing that he can save or help other people. He is focused on getting his act together, centering his life on himself and becoming "a respectable person with a future." He is cutting people who are "freaks" or refuse to take responsibility for their problems out of his life. Over the course of a few weeks he has gone from Social Justice Warrior to happily abandoning people around him in order to "unlock" his future. He is tolerant of people who don't have their crap together, but he isn't going to help them.

There is also a trans person, I'll call her Player T, in the group that has been ousted by Player A. Player T has been coming out as trans for the past year, and Player A has been supportive of her. However, Player A has made it quite clear to Player T that her problems are ~her~ problems, not his. It sounds like their friendship is dissolving, however it could implode into a nova as Player A has determined that the plight of trans people is their problem, and that he simply does not care in any way shape for form about them. From his perspective if they improve their image to being respectable people that they will rise out of the mire they have trapped themselves in.

So, what should I do here? Two former friends, one who used to be a white knight wanting to rise everyone up together and the other who was a close friend of this person, and now they have a concerted divide between them.

I am considering allowing it to play out just to see what happens.

Tell them to get their dice and both roll for falling damage.

Ask them to be more careful not to fall in the future.

[Doomed Hero]

thejeff wrote:

Krensky wrote:

Lemartes wrote:

So furcon is what exactly? I am frightened.

It's the largest (I think) furry convention in the US.

The furry hobby/subculture is sort of a mix of role playing (not typically the gaming sort, but not usually the bedroom sort either), acting, and cosplay. It starts at the weird (as in strange and different) end of the geek spectrum but can get really, really, really weird (heading into creepy and abnormal) very, very fast. Most are lovely people who enjoy dressing up in elaborate, mascot like costumes and pretending to be anthropomorphic animals of some sort or another though.

The flippant and dismissive comment here would be that if A is attending furcon he's on shaky ground calling other people weird or freaky.

Thus my earlier comment: " with some lawyers, doctors and former military people at a fur con (the mind boggles)."

Apparently his theory is that weird and freaky is fine as long as you keep it private. Be respectable in public to have a future.
Which, to me, has serious echoes of "Gays are fine as long as they stay in the closet. Why do they have to push their gayness on everyone?"

I don't think those things are even remotely close to being the same. The science on homosexuality is pretty conclusive. It is genetic and inherent. I don't think the same case could be made for being a Furry.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Man, I sure am sorry I quit this thread.

[Doomed Hero]

Yeah, I can't see this going anywhere good.

[BigNorseWolf]

Doomed Hero wrote:

I don't think those things are even remotely close to being the same. The science on homosexuality is pretty conclusive. It is genetic and inherent. I don't think the same case could be made for being a Furry.

"Furries are people that LARPers make fun of and LARPers are people who gamers make fun of."

"...and gamers are people who people make fun of?!"

[Krensky]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Doomed Hero wrote:

I don't think those things are even remotely close to being the same. The science on homosexuality is pretty conclusive. It is genetic and inherent. I don't think the same case could be made for being a Furry.

"Furries are people that LARPers make fun of and LARPers are people who gamers make fun of."

"...and gamers are people who people make fun of?!"

I believe video gamers are directly above us on the hierarchy of geekdom. If you're including them as gamers, then it would be sci-fi literature fans.

[Lemartes]

thejeff wrote:

Lemartes wrote:

Anyways, based on limited info it's a simple solution.

"Hey you two gaming time is for gaming nothing else so T...besides the weather no topics not related to gaming...and A...stop being a dick. Everyone understand? I have no time for crap I'm the DM I have places to describe and people to pretend to be! Now lets play some Fu^#&#& DnD!"

Well something like that......or TPK.

If the problem is just they are interrupting the game, that would be a solution. Trying to ban all non-game talk throughout the entire social evening would be a big problem in most home games I've been in. There's always some chat and gossip and sometimes a bit of venting, before and after the game. Most of us don't have the chance to get together too often outside of the game and it's all that other stuff that keeps the friendships going.

Trying to get T to tone the angst level down a notch and maybe try to arrange other times when it is okay to vent, like you do for a friend going through rough times, might help. And getting A to back off on the "get your act together" riff at the same time would help as well.

It'll be hard though, since the two were apparently close and A's apparently completely changed his tune.

You know what I meant. Off topic is kept light. More importantly the DM has to put his foot down and not tolerate crap.

[BigNorseWolf]

Krensky wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Doomed Hero wrote:

I don't think those things are even remotely close to being the same. The science on homosexuality is pretty conclusive. It is genetic and inherent. I don't think the same case could be made for being a Furry.

"Furries are people that LARPers make fun of and LARPers are people who gamers make fun of."

"...and gamers are people who people make fun of?!"

I believe video gamers are directly above us on the hierarchy of geekdom. If you're including them as gamers, then it would be sci-fi literature fans.

I dwell in places on that chart where therins fear to tread!