claudekennilol |
Forgive me if there's already, but I didn't see anything that appeared to address this.
Scorpion Whips: How do scorpion whips work? There are several published sources of scorpion whips, and they seem inconsistent.
Change the last sentence in the Ultimate Combat scorpion whip's description to say "If you are proficient with both scorpion whips and whips, you can use a scorpion whip in either the normal way, as a typical light performance weapon, or as a whip. When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, it is otherwise equivalent to a whip, but it deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus." This change will be reflected in future errata.What this means is that the scorpion whip is normally a light performance weapon with no other special weapon features, but that someone with both proficiencies can also use it as a whip, in which case it acts precisely like a whip in all ways (one-handed weapon, attack out to 15 feet, provoke an attack of opportunity, can use the Whip Mastery feats, etc) except that it deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus.
As far as I can tell, this addresses every problem raised by the scorpion whip.
From the additional resources doc
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Equipment
Please refer to the Adventurer’s Armory for the legal version.
The only problem remaining is that this specifically says to go with the AA version to alleviate the problematic interpretations of the more basic wording found in UE. But some people still even have problems with the wording in the AA version (I don't have links, but some simple searching should provide the evidence if needed). As you can see, the recent rules FAQ I quoted above is found in the Ultimate Combat FAQ. I'd like the additional resources doc to be updated to say that the entry found in UC is the most official version--because it specifically has this FAQ (and future errata, per the FAQ) backing it up, solving every problem the scorpion whip has.
trollbill Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne |
Kalindlara Contributor |
Ascalaphus Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden |
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
thaX Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville |
So, I have two characters that can use a whip. (A Kitsune Oracle and a Bard going for Dragon Disciple. I am still aghast as to why this was a rules question after it was regulated back to the AA version.
The only thing I saw, that the FAQ above took away, is the possibility to attack adjacent targets without provoking. (hitting with the Scorpion Whip's hilt)
I shall continue using it as a Whip with Lethal Damage, as I have done before.
kinevon |
Well, you basically need TWO exotic weapon proficiencies now. So even if the end result is nice, you're definitely not getting it too cheaply.
Not true. Is it really worth an extra feat to change the damage die from 1d3 to 1d4?
Oh, and add the mainly-unused-in-PFS Performance keyword?EWP: Whip (or class feature that gives it, like Bard, or Kensai)
Weapon Focus: Whip
Whip Mastery (BAB2)
Improved Whip Mastery (BAB5)
So, martial types can do it by 5th level, like my Lore Warden Fighter.
For first level, he fought with whip in one hand, dagger (or other light or one-handed weapon, as desired) in the other
2nd-4th level, the same, but able to use the whip adjacent, too, without provoking and with option to do lethal or nonlethal. Promoted more capture, question, and turn-in combats, too.
5th+ Whip, sometimes two-handed for extra Power Attack damage. Still able to do the capture/question/turn over to authorities stuff. Now gets to use AoOs with the whip on anything within 10'
Add Weapon Versatility in there, somewhere, and you can bypass damage type DR.
Enhance the whip, and you can start bypassing the material type DR, and, eventually, the alignment DR
Now, admittedly, the Fighter can do all this, and still have feats to spare for other stuff.
Other full BAB classes can probably do it as fast, but without a lot of extra feats to spend (Rah, Rah Fighters!)
Non-full BAB classes will wind up delayed, but possibly with extra feats along the way.
Humans and races that can get whip proficiency cheap can do it a bit quicker, except when able to get it from a class feature.
TL;DR 4 feats for regular whip, 5 for scorpion whip for an average of .5 more damage....
SCPRedMage |
As Jason alluded to, this is nice for characters who don't want to invest quite as much in using whips, as it gives an alternative path that requires one fewer feat to deal lethal damage, regardless of armor/natural armor.
Current path: EWP: Whip, Weapon Focus: Whip, Whip Mastery.
New path: EWP: Whip, EWP: Scorpion Whip.
True, you still provoke to use it, but at least you won't have to worry about damn near everything being immune to it.
Hayato Ken Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover |
I somehow think that´s a bit too complicated actually.
Wonder how many people will not understand this, because to me it feels kind of counter intuitive.
Correct me if i´m wrong, but improved whip mastery was already nerfed from 15 to 10 feat threatening.
And for bards it´s also kind of a let-down, the whole whip mastery tree is already long.
trollbill Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne |
I somehow think that´s a bit too complicated actually.
Wonder how many people will not understand this, because to me it feels kind of counter intuitive.Correct me if i´m wrong, but improved whip mastery was already nerfed from 15 to 10 feat threatening.
And for bards it´s also kind of a let-down, the whole whip mastery tree is already long.
This is my whole problem with the Whip. If you have a character concept who wants to use a Whip (be it for mechanical or RP purposes), until you can get Whip Mastery (which you may not be able to qualify for until 7th Level, and, btw, taking EWP (Whip) and EWP (Scorpion Whip) only cuts that down to 5th Level), you are less effective with that weapon you have spent 2 feats on so far than you would be with a dagger you spent nothing on. I don't have a problem with the higher level requirements for being powerful with a Whip, but it is silly you can't even really use the thing in 98% of your fights until then, and you had to sit on 2 feats while you were waiting.
It's the same problem 3.5 had with a Finesse-based melee Rogue. Since you couldn't even take Weapon Finesse as a Rogue until 3rd level due to the +1 BAB requirement you had to spend your first 2 levels playing as a sub-par archer with a character built for melee. Pathfinder fixed that by removing the +1 BAB requirement from Weapon Finesse. I just wish they would do that with Exotic Weapon Proficiency and/or Weapon Focus.
thaX Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville |
FLite Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento |
Andrew Christian |
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That seems... weird. Why did that get added in?
Because the Scorpion Whip was never supposed to be a whip that does lethal and only required one to be proficient with the whip to use.
If it were, then there would be no reason to ever use just the whip.
Now they've differentiated it from the Whip.
FLite Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento |
Marik Whiterose |
thaX wrote:That seems... weird. Why did that get added in?Because the Scorpion Whip was never supposed to be a whip that does lethal and only required one to be proficient with the whip to use.
If it were, then there would be no reason to ever use just the whip.
Now they've differentiated it from the Whip.
That reasoning seems counter-intuitive to me. Why not require an extra feat to use a Composite bow then? How many people use the regular version of a bow after they've enough money to buy the composite version.