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Setup.
I'm running Pathfinder for a new group of players. Two of which played PF before, and three are playing it for the first time.
So, we spend about three hours generating characters, mostly because one of the players is insanely thorough and insists on reading through spell descriptions before picking spells for his spellbook. Two players that already played are getting annoyed, because they finished their characters in the first forty five minutes.
Than the game begins and things generally go around well. The party has some background thought up by the players so they are not complete strangers and are kinda used to working together, vaguely aware of others strengths and weaknesses.
The game is happening in a large city. One of the PCs, played by a player who is a PF veteran, is a native of the city. The rest are newcomers. So I hope to use him to supply some lore, and, privately, he agrees to do that for me from time to time.
So they come into a possession of a mysterious locket and a text written in a strange, moving script, and they begin deciphering, going around finding things necessary to do so and generally working pretty well together.
The note turns out to be a message that if interpreted correctly should lead them to the old clock tower of the city where they will find a magical charter that empowers whomsoever uses it to create an organization a lot like the Pathfinders.
So, after they translate the note, I stealthily explain to the PC who is from the city that he remembers hearing a similar rhyme before and that it refers to the old, than new, clock tower. And what does he do? He sits on that and goes by himself, claims the charter and says that his character leaves the city.
So obviously, I am pissed, the other players are pissed, and he is behaving like a child. Says that the game is stupid and he is very bored so he had to entertain himself. So, after the game I tell the player that he is no longer welcome at my table, and fix some things so that the rest of the party will find the charter on the traitor PCs broken body (he fell out of the clock tower).
Why do people do this? I don't understand.
Sounds like a petulant child. He would also never, ever be welcome at my table again.
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That sounds like the lead in to a great campaign. I hate that some piss head had to go and crap on it like that.
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Wow, Hama, you need to make better games, sheesh, I mean that one had all kinds of, like, plots and stuff, and those things, that are, what, uh, oh yeah, like clues that have to be un clued or like that. You're a bad DM, dude, seriously
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I think we can all agree the guy's a jerk but:
So, we spend about three hours generating characters, mostly because one of the players is insanely thorough and insists on reading through spell descriptions before picking spells for his spellbook.
...Who DOESN'T read spell descriptions before they pick them? How else do you know what they do, and are worth choosing?
Especially since some have some very sneaky fine-print that makes the short description sound really good, and the finished product be worthless (see: Air Step as an example).
I think we can all agree the guy's a jerk but:
So, we spend about three hours generating characters, mostly because one of the players is insanely thorough and insists on reading through spell descriptions before picking spells for his spellbook.
...Who DOESN'T read spell descriptions before they pick them? How else do you know what they do, and are worth choosing?
Especially since some have some very sneaky fine-print that makes the short description sound really good, and the finished product be worthless (see: Air Step as an example).
Maybe I'm wrong, but I read this as him reading the whole chapter of spell descriptions.
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Super random.
I suspect there was something more going on that said player just didn't want to discuss with you (for whatever reason). I had a similar situation with a player once. We'd been playing for a few months but one day he seemingly randomly made a big scene and dropped out of the game. I was DMing but it was made doubly awkward because he'd been hosting the game.
To this day I still don't know what his deal was. I suppose the stigma of gamers as socially awkward exists for a reason.
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Why do people do this? I don't understand.
He actually explained it perfectly to you. He was bored and he's kind of an a-hole.
I can see where your campaign style might not be for everyone but he doesn't have to ruin it for everyone else.
I can't tell you why, but I can offer advice on how to take this and make it into a positive.
The player's character can no long function as a PC, so have him retire it and bring in a new character, but you keep his sheet.
Run a couple of high action, low plot adventures, play up the dangers and lack of reward of the mercenary life, and advance the time line about 5 years.
Then re-introduce that guys PC as the campaign big bad guy. He has set up the organisation, and is now vastly rich and powerful, because of the charter he stole from the PCs. They have a reason to hate him, so when other enemies of the BBEG decide they need a weapon to use against him, because they fear he is out to do something supremely stupid or dangerous, they look to the PCs as their tool
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I think we can all agree the guy's a jerk but:
So, we spend about three hours generating characters, mostly because one of the players is insanely thorough and insists on reading through spell descriptions before picking spells for his spellbook.
...Who DOESN'T read spell descriptions before they pick them? How else do you know what they do, and are worth choosing?
Especially since some have some very sneaky fine-print that makes the short description sound really good, and the finished product be worthless (see: Air Step as an example).
Since these are first-time players I'm sure Hama wouldn't have been opposed to the idea of him switching out the spells later. Whenever a new player plays a class who has access to a limited number of spells I tend to say "Look, pick this spell and if you find it doesn't work the way you thought/hoped we can switch it out."
If the whole group is waiting and it's a low-level game the wizard could've just asked what the "usual" spells were and later (at home) looked up others in the PRD and added them to his spell book. Assuming we're talking 1st level the costs are really not that high.
But @topic: That guy's a douche. But how did he even survive? I mean..."old clock tower" pretty much translates to "Something will go very wrong if you go up there", and at low-level a single character tends to be killed easily in a fight designed for the whole group.
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People crash games for all manner of selfish reasons, but that's really the gist of it.
They are selfish reasons.
Some people do not understand the cooperative nature of roleplaying and even experienced players can fall into that trap.
You did say, however, that you had played with this guy in the past a lot, and that you had three new players. If the fellow in question couldn't figure out that since it was a first-time game for over half of the group, it wouldn't be super-high-end-advanced-braniac-thinky-thinky-whoop-where's-my-wand-of-awes ome game, but something fairly simple, he's not worth having as a player anyway.
Goodbye and good riddance to him.
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I think it's because of the media. These days it's so full of porn and violence. No wonder our world is collapsing.
Nah, it's the schools, especially the public one. That's where kids spend 50% of their time so if there's a problem with a person that's a good wild guess as to why that problem exists.
So, after the game I tell the player that he is no longer welcome at my table, and fix some things so that the rest of the party will find the charter on the traitor PCs broken body (he fell out of the clock tower).
Sorry you and the other players had to go through that, but you wrapped it up perfectly. I've had to do something similar once or twice in an old AD&D 2nd campaign.
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I think it's because of the media. These days it's so full of porn and violence. No wonder our world is collapsing.Nah, it's the schools, especially the public one. That's where kids spend 50% of their time so if there's a problem with a person that's a good wild guess as to why that problem exists.
I'm telling you, it's CG animation. Man, I remember when 2D animation was the main technique in this country...
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It's Veggie Tales, never trust talking vegetables with invisible arms, it ain't right:-D
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Does this kind of greed and self-centered behavior fall into alignment with the character's personality/backstory/identity?
If you're suggesting that this would be an excuse, it isn;t. It never is. The player CHOSE to be a character that would derail the game and force the plot to a halt. Every aspect of a character is in the player's control. His hands were never tied by "what his character would do" because "what his character would do" is entirely up to him.
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There's no excuse for that behavior, but I will say that waiting three hours for a first-timer to read all the spell conditions does seem excessive. No doubt the player sat there and silently fumed about it until he reached his "I'm outta here".
Istill, that's no reason to torpedo someone's,
I think I actually fell asleep half-way through my post. Derp.
-Skeld
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Does this kind of greed and self-centered behavior fall into alignment with the character's personality/backstory/identity?If you're suggesting that this would be an excuse, it isn;t. It never is. The player CHOSE to be a character that would derail the game and force the plot to a halt. Every aspect of a character is in the player's control. His hands were never tied by "what his character would do" because "what his character would do" is entirely up to him.I'm suggesting that if the character was created in such a manner as for this behavior to be congruent with the character's written and submitted identity, that it the GM shares some of the blame in this situation.
I don't always do so [because some players don't enjoy that type of game] but I like GMing for and playing as characters that actually have their own goals and put priorities above some 'group.'
The GM's expectation appears to be that the player would share the information with the rest of the heroes and adventure on, not abscond with it while flipping everyone the proverbial bird. Blaming this, even partially, on the GM is a mind-boggling position. The GM can't see the future and doesn't know if or when a player is going to play their character like a ginormous toolbag. It's one thing if the GM orchestrates something like this with a player, but the GM seems just as surprised by this as anyone. More so, in fact, because this isn't what he intended (and the players don't know what the GM intends to happen).
-Skeld
Here's the silver lining:
It sounds like this whole thing shook out kind of early.
Imagine if he had stayed in for a few more weeks before revealing himself!
I've seen players do stuff like this sort of out of nowhere. Once, five months into a Warlock session, the guy playing the cleric, after we'd all been wiped out, coup de graced us all to death, took our stuff, and the campaign ended like that.
People get pissed off during games, especially during stagnant periods. I know I've sat out of games for hours or sessions due to whatever circumstances and in the hot, stuffy rooms that d&d always seems to occur in, you get pissed off. But your player . . . well, he just seems like an a#&+&#@ for approaching it that way, no matter how he felt. New players can be agitating: experienced players should learn to deal with that, or not play in games with new players.
If it's the first session, fine, the player is out, everyone can learn a valuable lesson in teamwork, and your wizard can know a /lot/ about spell descriptions from the get-go.
You're not to blame: your game actually sounds pretty cool, and terribly similar to a Hero Guild my PCs formed in a campaign some years back. Not everyone controls their temper, and thus, they don't belong in that sort of game (or any game, if you can't tolerate dicks in your game, which is fair).
As for sitting on information, though, I have to admit that my whole group is actually really based on subterfuge against one another, and debt, lying, betrayal, and secrecy are very much apart of the game's fiber for us, but that might be because we're also Vampire the Masquerade players. If that's not part of your game though, and it's not what your PCs want, it's not acceptable.
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I'm suggesting that if the character was created in such a manner as for this behavior to be congruent with the character's written and submitted identity, that it the GM shares some of the blame in this situation.
This is going off on a bit of a tangent possibly, but I disagree with this.
It is implicit that when you sit down to play Pathfinder, you are playing as a team. A character can be greedy and self-centered and still work in a party. You can have secret goals and motives and still work in a party.
So, if you are making a character for PF, it is reasonably assumed that the characters will work together, no matter what your backstory says. The GM would have no reason to expect this (and thus, no "share of the blame") unless the player has a history of doing this at the table, which doesn't seem to be the case, as Hama doesn't seem to be the "three strikes" sort of GM when it comes to this.
So, after they translate the note, I stealthily explain to the PC who is from the city that he remembers hearing a similar rhyme before and that it refers to the old, than new, clock tower. And what does he do? He sits on that and goes by himself, claims the charter and says that his character leaves the city.
One way to fix this is just tell the player that out in the open.
Next is to refuse to let the party split up. Remember, DMs- *YOU* are in charge of encounters. "You find nothing". "You encounter nothing."
I'm suggesting that if the character was created in such a manner as for this behavior to be congruent with the character's written and submitted identity, that it the GM shares some of the blame in this situation.
This is going off on a bit of a tangent possibly, but I disagree with this.
It is implicit that when you sit down to play Pathfinder, you are playing as a team. A character can be greedy and self-centered and still work in a party. You can have secret goals and motives and still work in a party.
So, if you are making a character for PF, it is reasonably assumed that the characters will work together, no matter what your backstory says. The GM would have no reason to expect this (and thus, no "share of the blame") unless the player has a history of doing this at the table, which doesn't seem to be the case, as Hama doesn't seem to be the "three strikes" sort of GM when it comes to this.
This is true. D&D is a TEAM game.
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So, after they translate the note, I stealthily explain to the PC who is from the city that he remembers hearing a similar rhyme before and that it refers to the old, than new, clock tower. And what does he do? He sits on that and goes by himself, claims the charter and says that his character leaves the city.
One way to fix this is just tell the player that out in the open.
Next is to refuse to let the party split up. Remember, DMs- *YOU* are in charge of encounters. "You find nothing". "You encounter nothing."
Eh, I'd prefer to just dump the d-bag of a player and not have to suffer from more d-baggery in the future. After all, players are legion.
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This sounds more than a bit odd. Something is either up with this guy that you are unaware of or there is more to the story.
Screened. The dude that I dumped used to play with me a lot.
If he played a lot with you - is there a chance that any part of the plots or game were reused from past games with him? A plot device he was exposed too many times?
Nope. I keep a record of that stuff.
@ Whedonhate...i mean Freehold, possibly, but he should have said something.
It sounds like something happened with this guy off camera. I'm sorry it blew your game up.
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It sounds like something happened with this guy off camera. I'm sorry it blew your game up.Nope. I keep a record of that stuff.
@ Whedonhate...i mean Freehold, possibly, but he should have said something.
I just got off the phone with the guy. I kinda hoped that he was having some life issues that would clarify his recent douchebaggery (not just during games, he's become unpleasant company everywhere, to the point of people not inviting him to parties or food related activities).
It seems that his life is just fine and that we are all arrogant douchenozzles who can't appreciate his genius and awesomeness. So yeah.
Unless he has a brain tumor which is making him a s**thead, I think I'm gonna stop seeing him altogether.
That sounds like a good call.