In an upcoming campaign, I wanted to play a Ranger with a Rogue-ish flavor. When asked "why don't you just play an archery Rogue?", my reply was simply "I like being effective mid-combat".
I said as much because... Well, a Rogue doesn't exactly have that many Hit Points, ya know! And their true strength lies in their Sneak Attacks.
In the end, I realized that I basically wanted to play Garret (from the Thief franchise, go figure).
So, I took the liberty of building a Rogue-variant, that I call the Bow-thief. S~%*ty name, I know. Let me know if you think of a better one. And if you have any suggestions for the overall build. All relevant changes to the CRB Rogue Class are noted in the Class Features portion...
Thanks in advance!
===== ===== ===== Bow-thief Class Progression
Level BAB Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 trapfinding
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 1d6, Evasion, rogue talent
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Endurance, trap sense +1
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Rogue talent, uncanny dodge
5th +3 +1 +4 +1
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 2d6, Rogue talent, trap sense +2
7th +5 +2 +5 +2
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Improved uncanny dodge, rogue talent
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 trap sense +3
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 3d6, Advanced talents, rogue talent
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Rogue talent, trap sense +4
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 4d6, Rogue talent
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 trap sense +5
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Rogue talent
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 5d6, Rogue talent, trap sense +6
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 Master strike, rogue talent
===== ===== ===== Bow-thief Class Skills
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int Modifier.
The Bow-thief's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int),
Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha),
Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha),
Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
===== ===== ===== Bow-thief Class Features
*Endurance:* You gain Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd
level.
*Stealth Attack:* If you can catch an opponent when
he is unable to defend himself effectively from your
attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
Your attack deals extra damage any time your target
would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether
the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or
when you fl ank your target. This extra damage is
1d6 at 2nd level, and it increases by 1d6 every four
spell-less ranger levels thereafter. Should you score a
critical hit with a stealth attack, this extra damage is
not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as stealth
attacks only if the target is within 30 ft.
Stealth attacks are possible only when you are
wearing medium, light, or no armor. You may only
use this ability while in a favored terrain or against a
favored enemy.
*Combat Style Feat (Ex):* At 2nd level, you must select
one of two combat styles to pursue: archery or
two-weapon combat. Your expertise in this style
manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th,
14th, and 18th level. You can choose any feats from
his selected combat style, even if you don’t have the
normal prerequisites.
The Slayer class and Urban Ranger archetype basically does this already.
The Slayer class and Urban Ranger archetype basically does this already.
Yes, but the "Slayer" feels too 'bounty hunter'-ish for me. And the skill set isn't what I'm looking for (no Disable Device, etc).
And as for "Urban Ranger"? *shudders*. Not a fan of Archetypes. And the whole "Favored Community" thing only works in my characters hometown (from the text I'm reading, and the character I'm playing *definitely* won't be heading back there anytime soon).
Thanks for the consideration though.
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Slayers can get the rogue trapfinding goodies (including Disable Device as a class skill) with a Slayer Talent. Plus they have an archetype that lets you sneak attack enemies from farther than 30 feet away.
Slayers can get the rogue trapfinding goodies (including Disable Device as a class skill) with a Slayer Talent. Plus they have an archetype that lets you sneak attack enemies from farther than 30 feet away.
So at every "Slayer Talent" interval, I can/must choose between either a greater sniping range *or* another Combat Style Feat? Pass.
I've already known about the Slayer, and the Ranger Archetypes and stuff for a while. I've been playing Pathfinder for years (since high school). And on top of that, my go-to Classes are typically Ranger and Rogue. So I know them pretty well.
This was just my attempt at another "cross-class". Just fishing for appraisals on it's balance compared to Ranger/Rogue/Slayer.
Well first off the bigger question would be 'will your DM let you use a class you completely made up?'
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I'm with most of the others as this is inferior to a standard slayer, the only place where yours surpasses is that you get both a ranger combat feat and rogue talent at 2nd and every 4th level after that instead of either and your trapfinding and sneak attack starts a little earlier.
Where the Slayer has benefits:
Full BAB - basically an additional +1 Hit at 1st and every 4 levels compared to the Bow-Thief
d10 hit dice - +1 hp and +1hp/level compared to a similarly stated Bow-Thief
Good Fort Save Progression - +6 at level 20 compared to the Bow-Thief
Light and Medium Armor Proficiencies and shields - you didn't list the bow thief's.
Martial Weapon Proficiency - you didn't list the bow thief's, but think longbows vs a rogue's basic shortbow.
Sneak Attack - starts one level later, but catches up at level 6, and exceeds yours at level 9. And he can do it within 30ft just like you. Yours is also limited to Favorite Terrains and Favored Enemies, but you didn't give the Bow Thief either.
Studied Target - basically a +1 Bonus to hit and damage at 1st and every 5th level.
Quarry - as the ranger ability +2 at 14th (+4 at 19th)
When you add that all up before feats and talents, lets compare the slayer to your Bow Thief. Lets assume you gave the same equipment and stats so we don't change those things. Values with the slayer's built in class buffs are in parenthesis, Bow thief has none)
Class: Slayer | BowThief
HP: +21 above BowThief |
Hit: +20(+29)| +15
Dmg: +0(+9) | +0
Fort: +12 | +6
Sneak: +6d6 | +5d6
CombatFeats/Talents: 10 | 20
Trapfinding Trap Sense: Both for 1 Talent | Included
So the Bow Thief has an 11 talent benefit over the Slayer (as the slayer will need to spend one talent on TrapFinding). The question is with those 11 talents and combat feats can you make up this difference?
His only level 1 class feature is trapfinding?
I'm with most of the others as this is inferior to a standard slayer, the only place where yours surpasses is that you get both a ranger combat feat and rogue talent at 2nd and every 4th level after that instead of either and your trapfinding and sneak attack starts a little earlier.
Where the Slayer has benefits:
Full BAB - basically an additional +1 Hit at 1st and every 4 levels compared to the Bow-Thief
d10 hit dice - +1 hp and +1hp/level compared to a similarly stated Bow-Thief
Good Fort Save Progression - +6 at level 20 compared to the Bow-Thief
Light and Medium Armor Proficiencies and shields - you didn't list the bow thief's.
Martial Weapon Proficiency - you didn't list the bow thief's, but think longbows vs a rogue's basic shortbow.
Sneak Attack - starts one level later, but catches up at level 6, and exceeds yours at level 9. And he can do it within 30ft just like you. Yours is also limited to Favorite Terrains and Favored Enemies, but you didn't give the Bow Thief either.
Studied Target - basically a +1 Bonus to hit and damage at 1st and every 5th level.
Quarry - as the ranger ability +2 at 14th (+4 at 19th)When you add that all up before feats and talents, lets compare the slayer to your Bow Thief. Lets assume you gave the same equipment and stats so we don't change those things. Values with the slayer's built in class buffs are in parenthesis, Bow thief has none)
Class: Slayer | BowThief
HP: +21 above BowThief |
Hit: +20(+29)| +15
Dmg: +0(+9) | +0
Fort: +12 | +6
Sneak: +6d6 | +5d6
CombatFeats/Talents: 10 | 20
Trapfinding Trap Sense: Both for 1 Talent | IncludedSo the Bow Thief has an 11 talent benefit over the Slayer (as the slayer will need to spend one talent on TrapFinding). The question is with those 11 talents and combat feats can you make up this difference?
Thanks, this actually exposed some holes in the Class that I can patch up. Will post a revised version, hopefully soon. Anything that wasn't originally posted was intended to be the Rogue *exact*. I thought I said as much in my OP, maybe I didn't? Oopsies on my part, lol.
His only level 1 class feature is trapfinding?
Favored Enemy, Track and Wild Empathy didn't seem to fit the character I was going for. But thanks for noticing that. Any suggestions on how to patch that up?
Well first off the bigger question would be 'will your DM let you use a class you completely made up?'
"completely made up" is taking this a bit far, isn't it? I mean, it's pretty much the CRB Rogue with a few changes made to it for the most part. As I said, the relevant changes were listed in the Class Features section.
Here's the revised version, based on constructive criticisms given so far. How does the revision look?
===== ===== ===== Bow-thief Class Progression
Level BAB Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Trapfinding
2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 1d6, Evasion
3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Endurance, Trap Sense +1
4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Bow-thief Talent, Uncanny Dodge
5th +5 +1 +4 +1
6th +6/+1 +2 +5 +2 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 2d6, Trap Sense +2
7th +7/+2 +2 +5 +2 Bow-thief Talent
8th +8/+3 +2 +6 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge
9th +9/+4 +3 +6 +3 Bow-thief Talent, Trap Sense +3
10th +10/+5 +3 +7 +3 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 3d6
11th +11/+6/+1 +3 +7 +3 Bow-thief Talent
12th +12/+7/+2 +4 +8 +4 Trap Sense +4
13th +13/+8/+3 +4 +8 +4 Bow-thief Talent
14th +14/+9/+4 +4 +9 +4 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 4d6
15th +15/+10/+5 +5 +9 +5 Trap Sense +5
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +5 +10 +5 Bow-thief Talent
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Combat Style Feat, Stealth Attack 5d6, Trap Sense +6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Bow-thief Talent
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Master Strike
===== ===== ===== Bow-thief Class Skills
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Int Modifier.
The Bow-thief's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha),
Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int),
Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Sleight of Hand ( Dex), and Swim (Str).
===== ===== ===== Bow-thief Class Features
*Weapon and Armor Proficiency*
The Bow-thief is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
*Trapfinding*
A Bow-thief adds 1/2 his level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A Bow-thief
can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
*Uncanny Dodge*
Starting at 4th level, a Bow-thief can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does
he lose his Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A Bow-thief with this ability can still lose
his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against him. If a Bow-thief already has Uncanny Dodge from a different
class, he automatically gains Improved Uncanny Dodge (see below) instead.
*Improved Uncanny Dodge*
A Bow-thief of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies another Rogue/Bow-thief the ability to Stealth Attack the character by flanking him,
unless the attacker has at least four more Rogue/Bow-thief levels than the target does. If a character already has Uncanny Dodge (see above) from another class,
the levels from the classes that grant Uncanny Dodge stack to determine the minimum Bow-thief level required to flank the character.
*Combat Style Feat*
At 2nd level, you gain the archery Combat Style, as a Ranger does. Your expertise in this style manifests in the form of bonus feats
at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. You can choose any feats from the archery Combat Style, even if you don’t have the normal prerequisites.
You can choose from the following list whenever you gain a combat style feat: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid
Shot. At 6th level, you can add Improved Precise Shot and Manyshot to the list. At 10th level, add Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run to the list.
*Stealth Attack*
If you can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from your attack, you can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
Your attack deals extra damage any time your target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or
when you flank your target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 2nd level, and it increases by 1d6 every four Bow-thief levels thereafter. Should you score a
critical hit with a stealth attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as stealth attacks only if the target is within 30 ft. Stealth attacks
are possible only when you are wearing medium, light, or no armor.
*Evasion*
On reaching 2nd level, you can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against
an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only you are wearing light armor,
medium armor, or no armor. A helpless Bow-thief does not gain the benefit of Evasion.
*Endurance*
You gain Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd.
*Trap Sense*
*Bow-thief Talent*
As a Bow-thief gains experience, he learns a number of talents that aid him in combat and help him survive in the wilds. Starting at 4th
level, you gain one talent. You gain additional talents as you increase in level. Except where specified, you cannot select an individual talent more than once.
Abilities proceeded by a "--" are Bow-thief Talents.
-- Cat’s Fall (Ex): With this talent you may ignore the first 20 ft. of any fall when calculating falling damage. If you take no damage from the fall, you
do not fall prone.
-- Cheetah’s Stride (Ex): You can move up to twice your speed as a move action. You don’t suffer any penalty on Stealth checks for this move, although
it will provoke attacks of opportunity as normal. You may use this talent a number of rounds per day equal to your ranger level.
-- Combat Trick: By selecting this talent you gain a bonus combat feat.
-- Deadly Range (Ex): This talent increases the range at which you can deal stealth attack damage by 10 ft. You may take this talent more than once. Its
effects stack.
-- Eagle Eyed: You gain Eagle Eyes as a bonus feat. You do not need to meet the feat’s prerequisites. Fast Stealth (Ex): You can move at full speed while
using the Stealth skill without penalty.
-- Hawk’s Eyes (Ex): As a standard action, you can make a ranged attack that ignores concealment (but not total concealment), soft cover, and partial cover.
You may also apply stealth attack damage, if applicable, to such a target.
-- Improved Stealth Attack (Ex): You may add an additional 1d6 to your total stealth attack damage.
-- Low-Light Vision (Ex): With this ability you gain low-light vision. If you already have low-light vision, this ability has no additional effect.
-- Bow-thief Feat: Instead of a talent, you may choose a feat for which you qualify from teh archery Combat Style or from the following list:
Athletic, Dodge, Diehard, Nimble Moves, Stealthy, Sudden Strike*, Toughness.
-- Skirmishing Attack (Ex): With this talent, whenever you move at least 10 ft. and attack in the same round, you may also apply stealth attack damage, if applicable, to the target, as though it were flatfooted. If you make more than one attack during the round, this ability applies only to the first attack.
Foes with Uncanny Dodge are immune to this ability.
-- Skilled Climber (Ex): You may climb at up to your full speed as a move action without penalty. If you fail a Climb check by 5 or more, you can immediately make another Climb check at the surface’s base DC +10. If successful, you stop your fall by clinging to the surface. You do not take any falling damage when
stopping your fall in this manner.
-- Skilled Swimmer (Ex): With a successful Swim check, you may swim at up to your full speed (as a full-round action) or at half your speed (as a move action). If you fail a Swim check by 5 or more, you can immediately make another Swim check at the water’s base DC +10 If successful, you do not go underwater. When underwater, you may add +4 to the total number of rounds you can hold his breath.
-- Stag’s Leap (Ex): This talent allows you to attempt a running jump without moving 10 ft. before the jump.
-- Stealthy Sniper (Ex): With this talent, when using the Stealth skill to snipe, you suffer only a –15 penalty on your second Stealth check instead of the normal –20.
*Master Strike*
Upon reaching 20th level, a Bow-thief becomes incredibly deadly when dealing Stealth Attack Damage. Each time he deals Stealth Attack Damage, he can
choose one of the following three effects: The target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or, slain. Regardless of the effect chosen,
the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the Bow-thief's level + the Bow-thief's Intelligence
modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a Master Strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that Bow-thief's Master Strike
for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to Stealth Attack Damage are also immune to this ability.
Well first off the bigger question would be 'will your DM let you use a class you completely made up?'"completely made up" is taking this a bit far, isn't it? I mean, it's pretty much the CRB Rogue with a few changes made to it for the most part. As I said, the relevant changes were listed in the Class Features section.
That doesn't really change the question of whether or not your DM will let you use this.
I'm pretty sure most DMs would say no if you told them you made a class specifically for yourself, taking the best parts of other classes.
Well first off the bigger question would be 'will your DM let you use a class you completely made up?'"completely made up" is taking this a bit far, isn't it? I mean, it's pretty much the CRB Rogue with a few changes made to it for the most part. As I said, the relevant changes were listed in the Class Features section.That doesn't really change the question of whether or not your DM will let you use this.
I'm pretty sure most DMs would say no if you told them you made a class specifically for yourself, taking the best parts of other classes.
Funny. I could've sworn that having fun playing something that suits my tastes was the whole point of creating new Races/Classes to begin with. One might even argue that "having fun playing what you like" is... The whole point of this hobby? Or is that just me?
And what's so wrong with taking the "best parts" of certain classes and combining them? As long as it is *balanced*, which is what this particular post was about- balancing it out so that I could play it in either this or a future adventure. A good DM knows how to work with their players to let them play what the think would be fun whilst still being balanced, etc.
And even then, I'd hardly say I'm taking the "best parts"; the Stealth Attack is weaker (in the long run) than traditional Sneak Attack. I opted for not taking the Animal Companion (which is a huge part of the Ranger class) or any of the Favored Enemies/Terrains.
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How about making this a simple archetype of Rogue?
Keep rogue chassis (3/4 BAB, d8 HD, 8 Skills, Good Reflex)
Modify Proficiencies: Simple weapons plus shortbow and longbow. Light Armor.
Modify Sneak Attack: Same progression (odd levels), only works for ranged weapons, but works against foes whom your allies are flanking, and/or at a range of 60 feet (choose one: these are both significant upgrades).
Modify Rogue Talents: Allow "Archery Ranger Combat Style" a la Slayer to be options.
This might be easier to get the DM stamp of approval for.
this feels like it'd probably be better as a slayer archetype.
How about making this a simple archetype of Rogue?
Keep rogue chassis (3/4 BAB, d8 HD, 8 Skills, Good Reflex)
Modify Proficiencies: Simple weapons plus shortbow and longbow. Light Armor.
Modify Sneak Attack: Same progression (odd levels), only works for ranged weapons, but works against foes whom your allies are flanking, and/or at a range of 60 feet (choose one: these are both significant upgrades).
Modify Rogue Talents: Allow "Archery Ranger Combat Style" a la Slayer to be options.This might be easier to get the DM stamp of approval for.
*opens mouth to speak... hesitates*
As I said, not a *huge* fan of archetypes. But this character is something unique enough that it wouldn't feel like one. You make an excellent point, good sir.
His only level 1 class feature is trapfinding?Favored Enemy, Track and Wild Empathy didn't seem to fit the character I was going for. But thanks for noticing that. Any suggestions on how to patch that up?
Well the obvious choice is for every instance of Stealth Attack to be gained one level earlier. That would also take care of your dead level problem.
Why does the "bow-thief" not have Thievery as a class skill? Gotta admit I'm not clear on where the heart of this class is, thematically, but I'm not sure Trapfinding and Trap Sense are fitting. Perhaps they should be replaced with an ability that assists them is getting their Stealth Attack damage?