Unchained Rogue in PFS: No ki pool talents


Pathfinder Society

4/5

I just wanted to point out to people who are considering rebuilds to unchained rogues that they will have to retrain ki pool and any ki-based rogue talents:

"The unchained rogue qualifies for all existing rogue archetypes, but she is limited to any rogue talents listed in Chapter 1 (including the sidebar on page 24)."

Ki pool and ki-pool-based talents do not appear in either of those lists. (If you use Hero Lab, there are some ki pool-based rogue talents that are still showing as valid choices; I've already submitted the bug report, but I wanted to give people a heads-up.)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Herolab is also showing Unchained Ninja as an option.

It is not an option in PFS.


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:^O

I saw "Ninja Trick" in the list of OK talents. So you can get a ninja trick, but not the ki to go with it? How do you power a ninja trick, then?

My new unchained rogue cannot get Vanishing Trick? How do I go invisible for sneak attack? Does the unchained version have some alternative?

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5 ****

Well, there are a number of ninja tricks that are not reliant on ki - I suppose that you can take those ;-)


I guess, Luke, my curiosity was this: do you think they meant to do that? Or was that an oversight? I generally prefer to play the game RAI instead of RAW, but I really don't know in this case if that was deliberate or not.

If there were alternatives added to the Unchained Rogue that give the class extra ways to go invisible, then it makes sense it that the ki pool is gone. If they were intending to make the rogue better and instead just accidentally nerfed an important aspect, then it doesn't make sense.

Sovereign Court

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outshyn, you do realise that this is PFS and it is run RAW not RAI, right?


I do. Now, let's not derail this topic with that. Let's keep talking about the rogue and the ki pool. I'm still curious if the loss of ki pool is deliberate or accidental, and if anyone has found backup talents that reproduce the lost ki tricks.

I heard something about the revised spell feats? Maybe they offer the ability to get Vanish a bunch of times? If so, would Vanish even last long enough to use? At level 1, it expires before you would get an attack in.

5/5

Reading the unchained rogue, it does seem intentional, and it probably was done deliberately. I think something as important as ki pool would have been specifically called out if it were to be an option.

4/5 5/5 * Contributor

To answer the "How can I go invisible?" question, major magic and minor magic got MAJOR buffs for the unchained rogue. Minor magic's spell-like ability is at will and major magic's spell-like ability can be used 1/day per two rogue levels you have. So when you qualify for major magic at 4th level (the same talent requirements that you would need to get ki pool and vanishing step), you can pick the vanish spell as your spell-like ability and go invisible twice per day right out of the door.

Granted, it'll never upgrade to greater invisibility as it does for the ninja, but in all honesty, the rogue couldn't ever get that upgrade either because the ninja trick rogue talent doesn't allow you to take master tricks, and the ninja gets a separate ninja trick that allows her to take advanced rogue talents.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Ellias Aubec wrote:
outshyn, you do realise that this is PFS and it is run RAW not RAI, right?

Scenarios are run a written. Common sense is still used to determine the rules.

4/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

Herolab is also showing Unchained Ninja as an option.

It is not an option in PFS.

Not in my version. ("Monk [Unchained]" is directly above Ninja in the list, so I could see how you could visually apply the [Unchained] to the Ninja line.)


Alexander, thanks! That's not perfect, but it'll get my Unchained Rogue at least some sneak attacks.

5/5 5/55/55/5

No unchained ninjas is a pfs house rule that hasn't been around for very long. Give them a minute to catch up.

4/5

I'm not seeing an Unchained Ninja in Hero Lab.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
No unchained ninjas is a pfs house rule that hasn't been around for very long. Give them a minute to catch up.

How do you figure? There are no rules for creating a Ninja out of a Rogue. There's no Unchained Ninja in the book. You have to reverse-engineer the replacements out of the APG Ninja class (an admittedly straightforward process). Using those reverse-engineered replacements to create an Unchained Ninja seems like the house rule to me.

5/5 5/55/55/5

redward wrote:

I'm not seeing an Unchained Ninja in Hero Lab.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
No unchained ninjas is a pfs house rule that hasn't been around for very long. Give them a minute to catch up.
How do you figure? There are no rules for creating a Ninja out of a Rogue. There's no Unchained Ninja in the book. You have to reverse-engineer the replacements out of the APG Ninja class (an admittedly straightforward process). Using those reverse-engineered replacements to create an Unchained Ninja seems like the house rule to me.

There's a few threads going on about it, but in short

Alternate classes are archtypes. This is spelled out explicitly in the apg, and confirmed by a jason bulhman post.

You can have multiple archetypes as long a they don't replace the same thing. To apply an archetype you don't even need to reverse engineer what got traded for what, all you need to know is what you have left. This is why you can make the ever popular ninjascout.

4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:


There's a few threads going on about it, but in short

Alternate classes are archtypes. This is spelled out explicitly in the apg, and confirmed by a jason bulhman post.

You can have multiple archetypes as long a they don't replace the same thing. To apply an archetype you don't even need to reverse engineer what got traded for what, all you need to know is what you have left. This is why you can make the ever popular ninjascout.

Sure, but you can't make an Unchained Ninja because there's no archetype to apply unless you reverse engineer it.

5/5 5/55/55/5

The ninja IS the archetype.

The unchained rogue can have archetypes.

4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The ninja IS the archetype.

The unchained rogue can have archetypes.

Except that there are no rules for how to make a ninja out of a rogue. If you show me a "X replaces Y" source to make a ninja I'll shut up. What sources would you show to a GM to explain your Unchained Ninja?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Asked and answered in the other thread.


I think people are confused as to why Andrew is saying that *HeroLab* is showing "Unchained Ninja" as an option.

Not whether or not ninja should be considered an archetype for purposes of the free retraining.

Because structurally HeroLab doesn't apply the "Ninja archetype" as a modifier to Rogue. If you pick "Rogue" in HeroLab, "Ninja" does not appear in the list of Rogue archetypes at all. "Ninja" is listed as a completely separate class *alongside* the rogue.

For what it's worth, I just fired up HeroLab and it does not, in fact, have any sort of Unchained Ninja in it. It does let Ninja pick Unchained Rogue *Talents*, though.

-j

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I may have misseen as Dorothy noted. I'll have another look.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

No, it isn't an Archtype, it is an Alternate Class. The explanation was that an Archtype was not going to be enough for the Ninja but it was still a part of the rogue.

We have three alternate classes, and the ACG should have been akin to being Alternate classes to the two that each of those classes are a combination of. That was changed at the last moment after the playtest was over.

The Ninja can not multiclass into the Rogue, though I question whether or not a Ninja can take Rogue Archtypes.

I believe it has been confirmed that Ninja's can not retrain into an UNCHAINED! Rogue.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Thax wrote:
No, it isn't an Archtype, it is an Alternate Class.

Before unchained, what was the difference?

An alternate class is specifically called out as a very big archetype where they've done the math for you. There's been NO difference until now.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

The difference is that it is listed as a class. Even though it has some of the same basics as the parent class, it is different enough to warrant the different write up. Archtypes, take up, at most, half a page. The Ninja, Cavalier, and Samurai have a normal page count as a class, even one that is alternate to the base class.

It is also an abandoned ... lets call it "template," one that is not being use in future products. The Advanced Class Guide should have use the same "rules" for Alternate classes for the double dippers, but instead made it into more rules about what does or does not stack.

But being a template that isn't used anymore doesn't make it into something else. It is an alternative to the Rogue, just as the UNCHAINED! Rogue is an alternative to the Rogue.

Sometimes, 2+2=4

5/5 5/55/55/5

Two plus two is four

2+2=4

They're the same thing, though written differently.

ACG

Sometimes an archetype exchanges
so many class features that it almost becomes a new
class itself. In such cases, the class might warrant a
representation of all of the class features, even those
that it shares with its base class. While still technically
an archetype, characters who play this class have all
the tools they need to advance their character in one
convenient location. The antipaladin, ninja, and samurai
are all examples of an alternate class.

The difference between an alternate class and an archtype is NOTHING more than presentation. Presentation does not change any of the mechanics.


"while still technically an archetype' has been flagged for removal in the next errata, incidentally.

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thax wrote:
No, it isn't an Archtype, it is an Alternate Class.

Before unchained, what was the difference?

An alternate class is specifically called out as a very big archetype where they've done the math for you. There's been NO difference until now.

I would say that there was always a difference, but that before now the difference wasn't meaningful.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Blakmane wrote:
"while still technically an archetype' has been flagged for removal in the next errata, incidentally.

Its not going to be that easy.

Archetypes are implicitly and explicitly a really big archetype. IF the entire design team is on the same page that they should be something else they're going to have to decide exactly what that is.

5/5 5/55/55/5

pH unbalanced wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thax wrote:
No, it isn't an Archtype, it is an Alternate Class.

Before unchained, what was the difference?

An alternate class is specifically called out as a very big archetype where they've done the math for you. There's been NO difference until now.

I would say that there was always a difference, but that before now the difference wasn't meaningful.

It has meaning or it doesn't exist.

*pops out of existance*


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
"while still technically an archetype' has been flagged for removal in the next errata, incidentally.
Its not going to be that easy.

I don't see why not. The text will be deleted. It's a change to a product, and they've done it 100x before. It totally can and will happen.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Archetypes are implicitly and explicitly a really big archetype. IF the entire design team is on the same page that they should be something else they're going to have to decide exactly what that is.

I believe you meant, "An alternate class is implicitly and explicitly a really big archetype."

In any case, I don't see any difficulty. They'll say it's a class like the slayer or bloodrager, and we'll all go, "OK." That's it, the end. Nobody cares, save for a very select few. And those few will be told, "house rule it if you care so much." Everyone else will move on. Nothing difficult at all.

In fact, from recent topics and posts, it appears that many people already assumed that it was a class like any other already. So for a bunch of people this is just, "So, no change then? OK."


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
"while still technically an archetype' has been flagged for removal in the next errata, incidentally.

Its not going to be that easy.

Archetypes are implicitly and explicitly a really big archetype. IF the entire design team is on the same page that they should be something else they're going to have to decide exactly what that is.

Actually, i'm pretty sure it is that easy. This wouldn't be the first time something has been errata'd to work differently.

5/5 5/55/55/5

aboyd wrote:
In any case, I don't see any difficulty. They'll say it's a class like the slayer or bloodrager, and we'll all go, "OK." That's it, the end. Nobody cares, save for a very select few. And those few will be told, "house rule it if you care so much." Everyone else will move on. Nothing difficult at all.

Except everybody that has an archetype on an alternate class.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Or has a rogue favored class option in ninja


BigNorseWolf wrote:
aboyd wrote:
In any case, I don't see any difficulty. They'll say it's a class like the slayer or bloodrager, and we'll all go, "OK." That's it, the end. Nobody cares, save for a very select few. And those few will be told, "house rule it if you care so much." Everyone else will move on. Nothing difficult at all.
Except everybody that has an archetype on an alternate class.

Yes, and my point is that it's a small enough group of people that they'll be told, "If you care so much, house rule it." To quote Wesley, "Get used to disappointment." Just because it adversely affects someone doesn't mean it becomes impossible. It just means it happens and some people are sad and everyone shrugs and moves on anyway. Maybe a couple people ragequit. Still doesn't stop it.

Hell, I was very bummed when the "many garments" magic item was nerfed via FAQ. But tough luck for me. Just because I was hurt by it didn't stop it.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Huge difference between something that was kinda fuzzy on how it worked but you could have worked out the right answer and something else thats explicitly listed as working a certain way.

It can be done, but IF they do it its going to be a jenga puzzle.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

To put a finer point on it, it was done as an Alternative class because the changes warrented a different way to present the Ninja than make it a PrC or Archtype.

Grand Lodge 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Or has a rogue favored class option in ninja

Simple FAQ:

Ninja is an alternate class to the Rogue, but shares several options with them.
Any Rogue archetypes that the Ninja has the prerequisites for is allowed for the Ninja.
Ninjas also qualify for the alternate Rogue favored Class Bonuses.

5/5 5/55/55/5

kinevon wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Or has a rogue favored class option in ninja

Simple FAQ:

Ninja is an alternate class to the Rogue, but shares several options with them.
Any Rogue archetypes that the Ninja has the prerequisites for is allowed for the Ninja.
Ninjas also qualify for the alternate Rogue favored Class Bonuses.

There's also a rogue only trait (blade of the society)

The bludgeoner feat would technically not work for a ninja (thats a biggie)

The torchbearer archetype wouldn't work.

Murderer's Blackcloth wouldn't work.

I'm sure there are other warrens in that rabbit-hole.

It would be much easier to leave the basic established structure in place and write in an exception that the unchained rogue can't take ninja.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

The Ninja already spells out that it can not multi-class into the Rogue, or Vice Versa. That didn't change with the UNCHAINED! Rogue. Why was that a question?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Thax wrote:
The Ninja already spells out that it can not multi-class into the Rogue, or Vice Versa. That didn't change with the UNCHAINED! Rogue. Why was that a question?

Thats not the question. No ones asking that that i know of, except to show a point.

Its a matter of if the ninja IS a rogue. Before unchained it wasn't a question: an alternate class like the ninja was just a really extensive archtype. The ninja could still take rogue talent alternate class features, feats, traits, and the occasional feat or oddball ability that crops up. Now they're apparently thinking about changing that.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/5

Herolab is not allowing an unchained ninja

However it is allowing unchained rogues access to the Ninja talents with Ki points

(and ordinary rogues for that matter)

1/5

Blakmane wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
"while still technically an archetype' has been flagged for removal in the next errata, incidentally.

Its not going to be that easy.

Archetypes are implicitly and explicitly a really big archetype. IF the entire design team is on the same page that they should be something else they're going to have to decide exactly what that is.

Actually, i'm pretty sure it is that easy. This wouldn't be the first time something has been errata'd to work differently.

Flagging it means that the team needs to look at it. If Jason* feels that alternate classes are technically archetypes and he meant for that line in the ACG to exist, and Mark* feels that it shouldn't be there and that they are different then the entire team needs to discuss it and come to a unanimous decision, which could be difficult. That is their FAQ/ERRATA process. So if they all already agree then it is an easy removal. If any disagree is where the difficulty in removing that line comes in, regardless of outcome.

*names are examples and could be replaces with anyone on the team.

Grand Lodge 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
kinevon wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Or has a rogue favored class option in ninja

Simple FAQ:

Ninja is an alternate class to the Rogue, but shares several options with them.
Any Rogue archetypes that the Ninja has the prerequisites for is allowed for the Ninja.
Ninjas also qualify for the alternate Rogue favored Class Bonuses.

There's also a rogue only trait (blade of the society)

The bludgeoner feat would technically not work for a ninja (thats a biggie)

The torchbearer archetype wouldn't work.

Murderer's Blackcloth wouldn't work.

I'm sure there are other warrens in that rabbit-hole.

It would be much easier to leave the basic established structure in place and write in an exception that the unchained rogue can't take ninja.

At no time has the Ninja qualified for the Blade of the Society trait in PFS.

Bludgeoner would still work for a Ninja, they just wouldn't get sneak attack when using it. Same as, say, the no-longer-allowed Alchemist archetype, Vivisectionist could never get full use out of it. Bludgeoner needs to be errataed to work correctly with anyone who gets sneak attack.
Cannot find the Torchbearer archetype on the PRD or D20PFSRD, so cannot comment on it.
Murderer's Blackcloth is probably another thing that needs to be errataed, to affect bleed from non-Rogues.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Kinevon wrote:
Bludgeoner would still work for a Ninja, they just wouldn't get sneak attack when using it.

A ninja taking a feat and not getting a sneak attack is very much the feat not working

Quote:

Same as, say, the no-longer-allowed Alchemist archetype, Vivisectionist could never get full use out of it. Bludgeoner needs to be errataed to work correctly with anyone who gets sneak attack.

Cannot find the Torchbearer archetype on the PRD or D20PFSRD, so cannot comment on it.
Murderer's Blackcloth is probably another thing that needs to be errataed, to affect bleed from non-Rogues.

Why try to change all of that instead of keeping the accepted and explicitly stated paradigm that alternate classes are just big archetypes?

Grand Lodge 4/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Kinevon wrote:
Bludgeoner would still work for a Ninja, they just wouldn't get sneak attack when using it.

A ninja taking a feat and not getting a sneak attack is very much the feat not working

Quote:

Same as, say, the no-longer-allowed Alchemist archetype, Vivisectionist could never get full use out of it. Bludgeoner needs to be errataed to work correctly with anyone who gets sneak attack.

Cannot find the Torchbearer archetype on the PRD or D20PFSRD, so cannot comment on it.
Murderer's Blackcloth is probably another thing that needs to be errataed, to affect bleed from non-Rogues.
Why try to change all of that instead of keeping the accepted and explicitly stated paradigm that alternate classes are just big archetypes?

Because Vivisectionist, as one example, has sneak attack but is neither an archetype for Rogue, nor an alternate class for Rogue, but it probably should work for them.

Edit: To be honest, the concept of a Vivisectionist sneaking up behind someone, clubbing them unconscious, and then cutting them up for parts, is very... thematic. And probably one of the reasons Vivisectionist was banned for PFS.

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