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Nightblade opens in a way I didn't expect, with Isiem working with a full-fledged adventuring party. Not that he was necessarily a loner in Nightglass, but his previous company was either a Kuthite, a Chelaxian, a Strix...so going from that to the company of a paladin, then a cleric of the sun goddess, is quite a gamble given his past. I wonder how long it's going to take for in-party fighting to break out, especially with Aspis Agents also in the mix...
I regret that I wasn't able to post on Saturday during the discussion! I've been fighting a terrible cold.
It's interesting to read the first chapters of this book again because they're both the Isiem I met first and - coming from the Isiem of the first book - very different! The Isiem presented in the first few scenes here is someone who seems like he desperately wants a connection (with the strix, with the fellow rebels, with Ascaros, etc) but has never been able to make it work; contrasting with the first book, where it seems like sometimes he enjoys people but for the most part is pretty disinterested in them and their activities. I mean, he never communicates to me, the reader, anything about Kyril's interests, her magic, her family (other than the old strix witch being her mother). We don't even really know how Kyril has reacted to her mother's death as its own issue, much less the slaughter of the bulk of her tribe's reproducing population.
Meanwhile, here we're shown Isiem actively seem to seek out Ascaros, mourn his loss of a connection with Kyril, and then join the rebels of Pezzack (despite his earlier fatalism with the strix over the impossibility of ever fighting Cheliax - when logically the same should hold true of this terrible little town in the MIDDLE of the kindgom's coast! and then his focus on Ascaros and helping him feels more in tune with the boy who left the academy, instead of the guy who spent (apparently) at least 8 years (7 in Westcrown and 1 in the wilderness and I guess maybe 1 more in Pezzack??) without contacting the dude at all.
I am not saying he's out of character, but imo he starts off with some very significantly different mindsetset. It's sort of like seeing him try to rekindle a lot of things that he had previously dismissed as lost but has actually discovered they have burning coals still going and take to his attention more readily than he had previously thought.
I'm also a huge dog lover and if Jason Voorhees was shown petting a dog I'd just be like "oh he's not so bad after all" so when Isiem is shown to have this very strong bond with Honey he made it into the "enjoyable character that I like!" category very easily.
Also, in thinking about some of the meta stuff from the previous thread: it's interesting to contemplate how he is both similar and different from other Pathfinder Tales characters. In some ways, there's a definite MO at play: many Tales characters have little to no connection with their families (especially parents), a bit intellectual, are disconnected from their childhood, struggle with relationships (both platonic and romantic) and are male humans roughly 25-40 (at least in appearance if nothing else) with a morally gray internal compass (e.g. willing to consider doing some mean/wicked things or not concerned about spreading good, but drawing the line at doing active evil).
Coming directly from the previous book - but also having already read Nightblade - it strikes me that Isiem definitely started out squarely in the middle of that characterization. Since his year in Pezzack/starting a new book, the changes he demonstrates strike me as an almost deliberate deviation from the standard archetype in the fact that he does return to old relationships (like Ascaros), takes a significantly more active role in trying to do good things (like not only stop the plague constructs but go completely out of his way to leave arcane instruction for the strix magic users), and demonstrate emotion other than subdued neutrality - like mourning Honey, despite her not even being dead yet.
Part of this is a natural process of character growth of course, but I guess I also wonder how much of it is intrinsic to Isiem himself? I mean not all people grow. Some remain exactly the same for a very long time!
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Order of the Amber Die
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Since his year in Pezzack/starting a new book, the changes he demonstrates strike me as an almost deliberate deviation from the standard archetype in the fact that he does return to old relationships (like Ascaros), takes a significantly more active role in trying to do good things (like not only stop the plague constructs but go completely out of his way to leave arcane instruction for the strix magic users), and demonstrate emotion other than subdued neutrality - like mourning Honey, despite her not even being dead yet.
Isiem has indeed changed a lot. It was risky contacting Ascaros after so much time, given how they left thinks in Misery’s Mirror. He could have been corrupted by Silence; perhaps now more loyal to the Umbral Court than to his old friend, Ascaros could have set up an ambush for Isiem, who would have faced unspeakable punishments as a defector, not to mention his “crimes” against the Hellknights and, ipso facto, the nation of Cheliax, which could have caused some severe fallout with Nidal.
He also showed some compassion in the Molthuni Army incident with the despicable Caffoc and the pathetic Otter. Granted, the sheer innocence of the latter garnered plenty of sympathy, but the old Isiem might have let them go ahead and get slaughtered, thus creating an opportunity for Isiem and his allies to study the Beast to better know how to kill it. But no – Isiem did a good thing here, and combined with all the other risks he is taking, I think it really shows his evolution as a character.
Haha what a horrible union that spawned that creature!
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Order of the Amber Die
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On a side note: if any of you have read the Giantslayer Marathon Part 1 post on the Paizo Blog about the gaming group that I play in (Order of the Amber Die) the Part 2 post just went up today if you'd like to check out what we did during our latest 72-hour session...
re: the Beast
re: the Beast
** spoiler omitted **
Ah. I knew it was a
My question is, what the heck are the Splinter Men?
I have searched and searched, but I cannot figure it out.
Obviously some sort of skeletonize creature, possibly with regeneration or some other effect.
Don't think it can be any skeleton I know of, as the only one type that does that is the bloody ones, but even they can be stopped with positive energy, which didn't stop them.
Another question, and this might be a little obvious but I wasn't sure, is Ascaros a wizard as well?
The term wizard is used for Isiem a lot, but only "shadowcaller" for Ascaros.
There are several use of "arcane" around his actions, but then he
And then there's the fact that Ascaros can "teleport", if that is the actual spell they used.
Maybe I'm taking too much of a gamer/rules perspective on this, but it can't hurt to find out.
Huh. Reading the Nightglass thread, Isiem is actually a mystic theurge, with lost cleric levels.
Definitely need to read Nightglass.
Is Ascaros a mystic theurge as well?
Is this a common practice in the Nidal clergy?
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Ascaros:
Isiem:
* this is also a terrible design decision, because he hardly ever casts any shadow spells. God he is just the walking poster child for "I made my stat choices for roleplay value!!" Agony.
re: mystic theurges -- I do think they're more common in Nidal than in a lot of other places, because the theocracy of Zon-Kuthon is so strong there, and there's also an entrenched arcane magical culture. But not everybody becomes one.
edit: There probably is a better way to do Isiem's build (there has to be) but I was so enamored of the Tragedy of this guy learning to do all these things and then turning his back on everything he learned that welp that's how I statted him.
Then I immediately got super annoyed with myself for being a giant dummy and went all-out on power builds for the next cast of characters.
Contributor
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Ascaros: ** spoiler omitted **
Isiem: ** spoiler omitted **
re: mystic theurges -- I do think they're more common in Nidal than in a lot of other places, because the theocracy of Zon-Kuthon is so strong there, and there's also an entrenched arcane magical culture. But not everybody becomes one.
Isiem's spoilered text is amazing. ^_^
Also, I caught the Beast's true nature quick. I was actually expecting their anti-undead preparations to obviously fail, given its type...
My question is, what the heck are the Splinter Men?
I have searched and searched, but I cannot figure it out.
The Splinter Men don't exist in any of the stat books because I made them up. They're actually more of a creepy and deliberately unanswerable roleplay menace than a fight-able monster, but if you wanted to run them in a game, here's what I would suggest:
Then they get a modified regeneration effect (again, exact stats will vary depending on your group; the important thing here is that the regeneration outpaces however much damage your group can deal out indefinitely. Eventually they're going to run out of spells or channels and they should feel like they're going to be in trouble when they do).
Their regeneration can't be stopped by any form of energy or attack directed at them. To permanently knock out the Splinter Men, you have to destroy their point of origin. The party in Nightblade didn't know that and so the Splinter Men were effectively immortal as far as they were concerned, therefore they had no choice to flee.
But if you want your PCs to be able to kill the Splinter Men, as opposed to being herded toward some dubious not-really-refuge, then drop a few clues as to how they can be taken out permanently and play tower defense against your PCs for a while.
iirc everything else they do (such as the stab wound not healing right) isn't really an effect intrinsic to the Splinter Men but is linked to one of the other creepy-fest effects in that story.
I started reading this recently. I'm on chapter 5 and I'm pleasantly surprised that I'm enjoying it.
I was not a fan of Nightglass, so I was hesitant to start this book. I'm glad that I did. I'll try to post more thoughts here as I read on.
I'm currently in chapter 7.
-I like that Kyril and Teglias are both trying to redeem Isiem. Maybe they are also trying to redeem Ascaros, but I haven't seen that yet.
-I like that Ascaros is teleporting home at night for a bath and to sleep in his own bed!
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How would one go about trapping an outsider and making it into a door like Mesandroth did in Fiendslair? I assume one would start with a planar binding spell, but then how would one either shape it into a door or trap it inside one? The likelyhood that any specific rules about how to do it are probably slim - hats off to Liane's creativity once again - but if there's any way it’s possible I'd appreciate any suggestions, as I'm considering binding some kytons (a la Hellraiser) in a similar manner to supplement the House of Night in the Midnight Mirror module...
Calling any of the creatures and then using fleshwarping techniques (the drow can't be the only ones capable of reshaping flesh) would easily do the trick. Kytons are often vivesectionists as well, so you even have a class that is pretty much specifically built for this. The vivesectionist has abilities like "torturer's eye" and "torturous transformation". Alchemists even have precedent for imprisoning and torturing outsiders ala the "pickled quasit" ability! Fleshwarping is a +1 to CR when given the template, but most of those still leave the creature somewhat useful. It's not hard to imagine that with a creature as resilient as an outsider that someone could craft them into all manner of other fixtures.
I actually am really glad you started talking about the doors today because those were one of the most creeptastic features of this book. At first it's sort of like "oh okay" but then the more time that I've had to think about it has really made me appreciate the absolute horror; namely, were these good or even neutral outsiders, it's reasonable to expect that someone in the party would have felt compassion and either tried to put them out of their misery or attempted to heal and/or free them. If some of those doors had been, say, an inevitable, a monavic deva, some azatas, while horrible, it'd have been really surprising if no one in the party at all did something to free them. Because it's these CE outsiders, however, nobody even considered lifting a finger to help them - at that, to me, is somewhat darker?
So what strikes me about this is the utter finality of this sentence for these creatures. Like, me, as someone who's usually pretty compassionate in my playstyle and reading, just instantly dismissed them and was like "well... they're creatures of chaos and evil. not much point in helping them." and like, I didn't really even consider trying? it was just too much work and the creatures "were too evil" and I dismissed them offhand. These demons were simply operating according to their nature, and they can be redeemed, but because they are CE and not just about any other alignment, they will die imprisoned (or worse, languish forever without hope of release). I guess that just gets to me; like this is one instance where, even as deserved as this fate may be, it's a terribly awful one.
In terms of the book, this set up the horror perfectly. Despite having two or three powerful casters, a paladin seemingly built for slaughtering evil outsiders, and some decent group cohesion, this makes it really understandable that this terrifying dungeon would keep Ascaros and Isiem from just opening each door, tossing some fireballs in, and then shutting the door until they have rested til the next day and do it again or something.
I also want to echo the enjoyment of Ascaros and state that I really enjoyed his relationship with Isiem throughout here. While Isiem seems like he might be Ascaros's only lifeline at times (rekindling whatever tiny pieces remain of Ascaros's heart and keeping him attached to the rest of humanity), Ascaros is remarkably more practical with his magic. Despite the fact that Ascaros would in theory (as a sorcerer) be behind in spell level and spell knowledge, he seems to take significantly more interest in magic than Isiem does. He uses it just to disappear home for a few hours of comfort, which seems like such a wild waste of it when compared to Isiem's careful hoarding of his spells. In fact, if I had to just guess, it almost felt like Isiem cast perhaps the fewest spells of all the casters!
Anyways, back to the two of them, I felt that it really helped me attach to Isiem in this story because it felt like there were people he genuinely cared about, whether it was the dwarf, the half-elf, his human friend, or even the strange (and honestly sort of suspicious) Sarenite priest. The whole time I was genuinely interested in seeing how far Isiem would go/what he would try to do in order to pull Ascaros away from the Nidal (if not Zon-Kouthan).
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Calling any of the creatures and then using fleshwarping techniques (the drow can't be the only ones capable of reshaping flesh) would easily do the trick. Kytons are often vivesectionists as well, so you even have a class that is pretty much specifically built for this. The vivesectionist has abilities like "torturer's eye" and "torturous transformation". Alchemists even have precedent for imprisoning and torturing outsiders ala the "pickled quasit" ability! Fleshwarping is a +1 to CR when given the template, but most of those still leave the creature somewhat useful. It's not hard to imagine that with a creature as resilient as an outsider that someone could craft them into all manner of other fixtures.
Fleshwarping! I just looked through it briefly, and that's a great first step. Back in the day I did a lot of different things with drow on both sides of the GM screen, whish is why I stayed away from them for the most part in Pathfinder (except a drow master summoner that broke the game when I dropped a huge ogre spider on the board every round for an entire minute) so I never even thought about that. Thanks!
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I actually am really glad you started talking about the doors today because those were one of the most creeptastic features of this book. At first it's sort of like "oh okay" but then the more time that I've had to think about it has really made me appreciate the absolute horror; namely, were these good or even neutral outsiders, it's reasonable to expect that someone in the party would have felt compassion and either tried to put them out of their misery or attempted to heal and/or free them. If some of those doors had been, say, an inevitable, a monavic deva, some azatas, while horrible, it'd have been really surprising if no one in the party at all did something to free them. Because it's these CE outsiders, however, nobody even considered lifting a finger to help them - at that, to me, is somewhat darker?
So what strikes me about this is the utter finality of this sentence for these creatures. Like, me, as someone who's usually pretty compassionate in my playstyle and reading, just instantly dismissed them and was like "well... they're creatures of chaos and evil. not much point in helping them." and like, I didn't really even consider trying? it was just too much work and the creatures "were too evil" and I dismissed them offhand. These demons were simply operating according to their nature, and...
I didn't feel any sympathy for the demons in the doors either. Freeing them would've just incurred their wrath, with no gratitude or remorse. At the end of the day, demons will be demons, and we can't blame them for being what they are any more than they can blame us for not caring. Plus, as the enemies of the qlippoth, it didn't surprise me one bit why that was done to them. I'd want to punish them for eternity too if they took my home from me, even if "home" is the Abyss...
As mentioned in the Nightglass thread while I really liked the books at the end of this one I was just done with Isiem. I just got tired about reading about him. He is too emo for me. Which I might just chalk up to just me personally as I love the support characters...the plot...the creatures Liane created. Isiem just never clicked with me as a reader.
I didn't feel any sympathy for the demons in the doors either. Freeing them would've just incurred their wrath, with no gratitude or remorse. At the end of the day, demons will be demons, and we can't blame them for being what they are any more than they can blame us for not caring. Plus, as the enemies of the qlippoth, it didn't surprise me one bit why that was done to them. I'd want to punish them for eternity too if they took my home from me, even if "home" is the Abyss...I actually am really glad you started talking about the doors today because those were one of the most creeptastic features of this book. At first it's sort of like "oh okay" but then the more time that I've had to think about it has really made me appreciate the absolute horror; namely, were these good or even neutral outsiders, it's reasonable to expect that someone in the party would have felt compassion and either tried to put them out of their misery or attempted to heal and/or free them. If some of those doors had been, say, an inevitable, a monavic deva, some azatas, while horrible, it'd have been really surprising if no one in the party at all did something to free them. Because it's these CE outsiders, however, nobody even considered lifting a finger to help them - at that, to me, is somewhat darker?
So what strikes me about this is the utter finality of this sentence for these creatures. Like, me, as someone who's usually pretty compassionate in my playstyle and reading, just instantly dismissed them and was like "well... they're creatures of chaos and evil. not much point in helping them." and like, I didn't really even consider trying? it was just too much work and the creatures "were too evil" and I dismissed them offhand. These demons were simply operating according to their nature, and...
Tangent...
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So I guess this brings Isiem's story to a close...for now. Thank you, Liane, for another great adventure! And what an ending...with what was probably one of the most climactic Bluff checks ever pulled off in a PT novel! Destroying a qlippoth of that magnitude, even through conventional means, is a monumental task. I figured Isiem and Ascaros would likely survive, but I was sure everyone else was going be ripped to pieces by it, but I was glad to be wrong. Those things are SO nasty! (If any of you have the chance to GM one - especially an augnagar or a nyogoth - the final chapter is a great resource on how to play one to creep out your players.)
As mentioned in the Nightglass thread while I really liked the books at the end of this one I was just done with Isiem. I just got tired about reading about him. He is too emo for me. Which I might just chalk up to just me personally as I love the support characters...the plot...the creatures Liane created. Isiem just never clicked with me as a reader.
Winds blew out the power in the neighborhood last night so I reread the last half of Nightblade. Earlier in Nightglass when both you and Liane mentioned feeling negatively towards Isiem for his emo-ness I kind of arched a brow because he never seemed to have much emotion at all. Rereading, however, I found myself rolling my eyes quite a few times whenever someone with a stronger conviction towards their alignment would do something and Isiem would stop and hem and haw and weigh whether or not he should or who else would and it's just like oh my god dude just cast a damn spell you're as bad as the damn wizard-players at my table!!
It's amusing enough that I wondered if it was intentional and Liane hadn't done it to convey that exact same wizardly indecision in written form :P
But it also does make for a frustrating character. I can see where Isiem starts to grate on the nerves - if it weren't for Ena, Kyril, and Ascaros as a FANTASTIC supporting cast, it would have been very difficult for me to like Isiem too. I think that says a lot about Liane's ability to write an interesting story, and part of the reason I found this story more interesting is because of how well the party dynamics work out.
So I guess this brings Isiem's story to a close...for now. Thank you, Liane, for another great adventure! And what an ending...with what was probably one of the most climactic Bluff checks ever pulled off in a PT novel! Destroying a qlippoth of that magnitude, even through conventional means, is a monumental task. I figured Isiem and Ascaros would likely survive, but I was sure everyone else was going be ripped to pieces by it, but I was glad to be wrong. Those things are SO nasty! (If any of you have the chance to GM one - especially an augnagar or a nyogoth - the final chapter is a great resource on how to play one to creep out your players.)
The fear of the rest of the party getting ripped to shreds actually had me gripped too. I get very frustrated when adventures end in "well all the redshirts that were clearly redshirts got redshirted and none of the main characters particularly care" because it just... doesn't feel like that much of an emotional investment. I get that it's done to make it seem "weighty" but imo it's low-hanging fruit. That's why I have so much respect for the ending of this story here, where the party lost, and lost VERY badly, but without death (of anyone important I mean)(aside from the horses :( ).
Like, Isiem lost a ring of spell storing. That's a hefty sum of gold, even for a wizard of his level. The Sarenite priest lost a lot of physical function, essentially taking a decent caster/scholar out of the field. Kyril and Ena didn't particularly lose much, but they did not come out ahead of this adventure by any means - and in many ways, that makes all the more real and interesting to me. It's not a TPK (of redshirts) nor is it a real TPK. It's just an adventure that didn't pay out, was utterly terrifying, crippled some party members, and it's an excellent example of why adventuring isn't for everyone. I really appreciate that.
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Rereading, however, I found myself rolling my eyes quite a few times whenever someone with a stronger conviction towards their alignment would do something and Isiem would stop and hem and haw and weigh whether or not he should or who else would and it's just like oh my god dude just cast a damn spell you're as bad as the damn wizard-players at my table!!
It's amusing enough that I wondered if it was intentional and Liane hadn't done it to convey that exact same wizardly indecision in written form :P
Great point! I’m sure we’ve all played with someone like that at one point in time, and it IS that annoying. Actually, come to think of it, I’ve been that player too at times, sorry…but there is a lot of pressure when it comes to spellcasting. Just like one right decision can win an encounter, one wrong decision can lose it. There’s something to be said about that kind of pressure, as compared to swinging a sword of firing a bow every round.
Isiem lost a ring of spell storing. That's a hefty sum of gold, even for a wizard of his level. The Sarenite priest lost a lot of physical function, essentially taking a decent caster/scholar out of the field. Kyril and Ena didn't particularly lose much, but they did not come out ahead of this adventure by any means - and in many ways, that makes all the more real and interesting to me. It's not a TPK (of redshirts) nor is it a real TPK. It's just an adventure that didn't pay out, was utterly terrifying, crippled some party members, and it's an excellent example of why adventuring isn't for everyone. I really appreciate that.
I love how this works out – that they DIDN’T come out ahead. That is SPOT ON like real adventuring, as I have played many games where that exact thing happened. Not every story ends well, not every fight is winnable, and I’ve been at the tail end of that realization in many campaigns. Sometimes you’re just happy to be alive at the end of it, and break even with resources gained and spent. But in many ways that’s like real life - the less often you win makes a brilliant victory that much more satisfying.