[Unchained] Unchaining the Unchained Monk


Homebrew and House Rules

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Rynjin wrote:

Man, I forgot that one. I meant to change the Wind Jump power to cost 1 Ki to get a Fly speed equal to base speed for a minute per level instead f the weird thing it is now.

That and change Slow Fall to just be Cat Fall as if augmented by a number of Power Points equal to the Monk's level/2.

FTFY

[Honestly I'm surprised Paizo doesn't take more advantage of the OGL they've built their business on. There's no shame in referencing another OGL company's material. Granted if they wanted to make a habit out of it they would probably want to buy (or somehow gain a controlling interest in) d20pfsrd to ensure it stays up.)


Copied from my post on the other thread:

Why not make stunning fist one of the bonus feats? Along with punishing kick and elemental fist etc.

Move ki powers to level 2 (or even 1st).
Ki pool needs to = level + wis mod or at the very least a way to generate more.

Move fast movement to level 1. It doesn't stack so who cares? Barbarians get it at 1st...

Style strikes need to come online earlier. Start at 3? Then every 3 or 4 after that and possibly the choice of a bonus feat/ki power instead.


Lance Manstrong wrote:
Move fast movement to level 1. It doesn't stack so who cares? Barbarians get it at 1st...

On that note, it's pretty ridiculous that Barbarians get a legitimate speed increase but the monk gets a bloody enhancement bonus that doesn't stack with most sources of movement bonus.

Until level 12 a Monk and Barbarian move at the same speed when hasted.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Lance Manstrong wrote:
Move fast movement to level 1. It doesn't stack so who cares? Barbarians get it at 1st...

On that note, it's pretty ridiculous that Barbarians get a legitimate speed increase but the monk gets a bloody enhancement bonus that doesn't stack with most sources of movement bonus.

Until level 12 a Monk and Barbarian move at the same speed when hasted.

Wouldn't the Barbarian move 10 feet faster? 40+30 vs 30+30?

But this is definitely the kind of stuff I'm looking for that I missed.


I think kyrt is assuming the Barbarian is in medium armor.


Mithral Medium should be online well before 12th.


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Personally, I'm intending to house rule Fast Movement whenever I DM so that it:

  • Is obtained at 1st Level. It increases at the same places as before.
  • Is a Competence Bonus.
  • Affects all modes of movement the Character possesses.


Maybe give Ki pool (and first Ki power?) at level 1-2?

I mean, the Ninja gets Ki faster than the Monk. That always bothered me a bit.


Rynjin wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Lance Manstrong wrote:
Move fast movement to level 1. It doesn't stack so who cares? Barbarians get it at 1st...

On that note, it's pretty ridiculous that Barbarians get a legitimate speed increase but the monk gets a bloody enhancement bonus that doesn't stack with most sources of movement bonus.

Until level 12 a Monk and Barbarian move at the same speed when hasted.

Wouldn't the Barbarian move 10 feet faster? 40+30 vs 30+30?

But this is definitely the kind of stuff I'm looking for that I missed.

Heh, you're right. Anybody hasted is tied with the monk and the Barbarian beats him until level 15 at which they're tied. The monk only FINALLY outspeeds the hasted barbarian at level 18


Style strikes being restricted to flurry of blows seems so weird it almost has to be an oversight. Or a cruel joke.

It still bothers me that you can't mix the style strikes until level 15. Thats so late in the game for something so seemingly trivial at that level.


Lance Manstrong wrote:

Style strikes being restricted to flurry of blows seems so weird it almost has to be an oversight. Or a cruel joke.

It still bothers me that you can't mix the style strikes until level 15. Thats so late in the game for something so seemingly trivial at that level.

Be happy you can do it at all and not be forced to make an archetype called "Master of Many Style Strikes" or something like that...


Tels wrote:
Lance Manstrong wrote:

Style strikes being restricted to flurry of blows seems so weird it almost has to be an oversight. Or a cruel joke.

It still bothers me that you can't mix the style strikes until level 15. Thats so late in the game for something so seemingly trivial at that level.

Be happy you can do it at all and not be forced to make an archetype called "Master of Many Style Strikes" or something like that...

An archetype which gives up flurry at that... but still only permits Style Strikes during a Full Attack.


Formless Mastery would have been more interesting if it allowed you to spend Ki to gain a Style Feat (line) for the duration of a combat. There are some situationally interesting Style Feats which don't see a lot of play because things like Dragon Style are so much better in general given the heavy feat cost. If you had a way to gain them without the hefty feat tax the Monk would feel a lot more flavorful and better fit a combat niche as the "nifty martial crowd controller guy." Besides the current Formless Mastery is pretty broken (both unusable without cost reducing items and ridiculous bonuses when you use it) leveling things out seems like it would be better design principle.


Cerberus Seven wrote:

The thing about the monk, Mytically Inclined, is that the flavor and mechanics of the class clearly indicate it's meant to one thing above all: fight.

(Snip)
If the monk gets some sensible upgrades that streamline and enhance their playing experience yet also make them better at fighting in general than a fighter, well, that's a problem with the fighter to be perfectly honest.

I guess that brings up the question then - how much of a boost are we looking to give the monk? Are we trying to make it the premier martial class? Or equivelent to the primier martial classes (Paladin and Barbarian)? Or somewhere below that?

(Also, thanks for the tip on Insightful Wisdom. I will definitely have an eye for that in my coming monk build.)


Equivalent I'd say. The Monk should be the king of the battlefield, right alongside the Barbarian but with a very different style of doing so.


Trekkie90909 wrote:
Formless Mastery would have been more interesting if it allowed you to spend Ki to gain a Style Feat (line) for the duration of a combat. There are some situationaly interesting Style Feats which don't see a lot of play because things like Dragon Style are so much better in general given the heavy feat cost. If you had a way to gain them without the hefty feat tax the Monk would feel a lot more flavorful and better fit a combat niche as the "nifty martial crowd controller guy." Besides the current Formless Mastery is pretty broken (both unusable without cost reducing items and ridiculous bonuses when you use it) leveling things out seems like it would be better design principle.

Maybe if the Monk had something like the Brawler's Martial Flexibility? That seems like what they were after with the ki pool anyway - the ability to temporarily gain special skills/feats that you wouldn't necessarily want to be locked into all the time.


I'm going to post a potential re-write of Wind Jump that was sparked solely by "This sounded cool in conjunction with Flying Kick", so bear with me.

Wind Jump (Su): A monk with this ki power can spend
1 point from his ki pool as a move action to grant himself
a fly speed (with perfect maneuverability) equal to his
base land speed. Once activated, this ability
lasts for 1 minute per Monk level. Alternately, the Monk may activate this ability as an Immediate action, but it only lasts until the end of his turn. A monk must be at least 6th level before selecting this ki power.

Flying kick straight up and just hang there for 6 seconds wailing on a guy in mid-air. Thematic, and potentially useful for unexpected falls and such as well.

Alternately, it could just be a blanket change to Slow Fall (it works as normal, but your fall stops completely until the end of your turn).


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I would have liked to have seen ki powers kept as an actual suite of abilites. At level 2 you gain a ki pool and a group of powers like slow fall, high jump, increased move speed, an extra attack, and etc. That didnt cost any ki points but were limited to once a turn. In addition you picked one from another group. One of the more impressive ones. This second group would cost ki to use.

Then a couple levels later you pick another from that second group.

Maybe at level 6 or 8 some other "free" powers are added to the suite. Like poison immunity, diamond body(or whatever. Just an example). All the while every other level or so youre picking from that second group.

This way you get all the generic monk martial arts stuff in an actual suite of powers(not requiring ki). Seperately youre selecting and creating a second suite that requires spending ki but it's the powers that make you unique and cool.

Calling what the unchained monk has now a suite of powers and abilities is just way off.


Maybe not front loading it so much. High jump, slow fall, extra speed at 2. More at 4. That kinda thing.


Rough draft of a full write-up (with table!)

Tell me what y'all think.


From what I read you gave the monk its old will save back, and gave it more ki. The quiggong monk powers are also gone.

You also gave back the monk's core use of ki with:

Make one additional unarmed attack at his highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows attack

Increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 minute

Give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC.

Is that the extent of the changes? So far its good to me.


It is not the extent, no. I modified a number of the Ki Powers (including the Qinggong Power one), and shuffled around some abilities (Flawless Mind at 11th, Tongue of the Sun and Moon at 8th), and gave back Quivering Palm, as well as raising it and Stunning Fist's DC.


ok. The saves, even with your bonus to stunning fist or quivering palm still seems to be reasonable. I somehow missed the qinnggong powers even though I was looking for them. That is the only thing on my watchlist since I dont know how good the monk(your version) is without them. When I am more awake I will take a more in depth look at it.


Otherwhere wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Headbutt having a penalty against larger creatures simply doesn't make any sense. Your attacks don't deal less damage to big things, so why should the Headbutt be less effective?
I think they were probably thinking: "How do you head-butt a giant?"

His 'nads are in the perfect spot for a debilitating blow


thorin001 wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Headbutt having a penalty against larger creatures simply doesn't make any sense. Your attacks don't deal less damage to big things, so why should the Headbutt be less effective?
I think they were probably thinking: "How do you head-butt a giant?"
His 'nads are in the perfect spot for a debilitating blow

And if the Giant is Huge, you take out his knees.


Speaking of, that's not a change I've put in yet, since I forgot about it.


thorin001 wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Headbutt having a penalty against larger creatures simply doesn't make any sense. Your attacks don't deal less damage to big things, so why should the Headbutt be less effective?
I think they were probably thinking: "How do you head-butt a giant?"
His 'nads are in the perfect spot for a debilitating blow

Except, it doesn't work that way.

Unchained Monk wrote:
Head-Butt: The monk slams his head into his enemy's head, leaving his foe reeling. If the attack hits and the foe is of the same size or one size smaller than the monk, the monk can make a free combat maneuver check against the target of this strike (using the base attack bonus of the attack used to hit the foe). If the foe is not of the same creature type as the monk, the monk takes a –8 penalty on this check. If the check is successful, the target is staggered for 1 round. Creatures without a discernible head are not affected by this style strike (subject to GM discretion). The monk must attack with a head-butt to use this style strike.

You must declare you are using the Head-Butt style strike.

You must hit with it.
If the target is your size or one size smaller, you can make a CMB to stagger the target.
If the target is of a different creature type than the Unchained Monk, then the Unchained Monk takes a -8 penalty to the CMB check.

So, for example, a human Unchained Monk can bash his head against that of a Halfling and stagger him, but if he tries to bash his head against a grig, nothing happens because the grig is 2 size categories smaller than the human.

But, if, say, the grig were under the effects of a size increase (somehow), and was now small sized instead of tiny, then the human Unchained Monk would take a -8 penalty because bashing his head against the head of a creature of another type is, apparently, less effective.


Lance Manstrong wrote:

Style strikes being restricted to flurry of blows seems so weird it almost has to be an oversight. Or a cruel joke.

It still bothers me that you can't mix the style strikes until level 15. Thats so late in the game for something so seemingly trivial at that level.

as we've see a multitude of times with paizo, they are ALL about cruel jokes for monks.

brawling enchant, bodywraps of mighty strikes, the misplaced crane wing nerf, clockwork prosthesis being one of the only cost-effective means of unarmed combat, and now great ki powers with a really high cost and a really small ki pool, and style strikes being limiting on what was supposed to be the most freeform weapon type (your entire body) and requiring a flurry to use. oh and lowered will saves with no MAD alleviation to allow WIS investment to compensate--with the only real boon to it being introduced at NINETEENTH LEVEL (so effectively, never).

the hilariously small vanilla bonus feat pool in the face of a dozen or more books with great thematic feats for monks isnt quite a slap in the face/cruel joke, but seems like a rather lazy oversight (likely m-muh pagecount issues as usual). and perfect strike's needless limitation (was made before the oodles of monk weapons became a thing, but has received no attention/errata to fix it and likely never will).

The Exchange

I think this thread is over reacting. The monk is much better now. It basically has pounce at level 4. It is not very MAD as it can focus on Dex and to a lesser extent Wis.

Hypothetical: Flying kick, Panther style for extra attacks against that large guy with reach or his minions. Flurry of hits. When they attack back your AC is high (qinggong for barkskin +potion of mage armor), easily evading most attacks but you have the HP for the real hits too.

What would be great is some feat support for extra Ki powers or counting your monk level as higher for style strike. I am sure a splat book will cover this though.


Pounce at lv.4? how is that? They get style strike at 5th, right? I mean, I'm presuming that you're talking about Flying Kick....Which is basically an extra 5 foot step at 5th level, and only really becomes useful at 6th.

The Exchange

galahad2112 wrote:
Pounce at lv.4? how is that? They get style strike at 5th, right? I mean, I'm presuming that you're talking about Flying Kick....Which is basically an extra 5 foot step at 5th level, and only really becomes useful at 6th.

yes, I meant 5th level. A 10' foot move with a full attack is great. a 20' move and full attack is amazing.


GeneticDrift wrote:

I think this thread is over reacting. The monk is much better now. It basically has pounce at level 4. It is not very MAD as it can focus on Dex and to a lesser extent Wis.

Hypothetical: Flying kick, Panther style for extra attacks against that large guy with reach or his minions. Flurry of hits. When they attack back your AC is high (qinggong for barkskin +potion of mage armor), easily evading most attacks but you have the HP for the real hits too.

What would be great is some feat support for extra Ki powers or counting your monk level as higher for style strike. I am sure a splat book will cover this though.

Your opinion is noted and discarded.

I'd also like to point out that Panther Style NEVER, and I mean NEVER works as well in practice as it looks on paper.

Anybody have comments on the document I linked?


GeneticDrift wrote:

I think this thread is over reacting. The monk is much better now. It basically has pounce at level 4. It is not very MAD as it can focus on Dex and to a lesser extent Wis.

Hypothetical: Flying kick, Panther style for extra attacks against that large guy with reach or his minions. Flurry of hits. When they attack back your AC is high (qinggong for barkskin +potion of mage armor), easily evading most attacks but you have the HP for the real hits too.

What would be great is some feat support for extra Ki powers or counting your monk level as higher for style strike. I am sure a splat book will cover this though.

oh? what means of dex-to-hit/damage do they get that arent feat or money-intensive?

because otherwise they still need str/dex/con/wis, which is just as MAD as they were before. monks could get pounce by level 2 via MoMS/pummeling charge--or still at a decent pace with it vanilla. pounce (while fantastic) isn't an all's forgiven thing.

there's been no change to it's equipment woes for unarmed combat/armor/magical item slots, in fact they have MORE worries not that they need to juggle getting ki-cost-reduction items to stop from hemorrhaging their small pool in a short time.


AndIMustMask wrote:
oh? what means of dex-to-hit/damage do they get that arent feat or money-intensive?

You just need 3 levels of unchained rogue and you fixed some of your monk MADness. ;)

AndIMustMask wrote:
monks could get pounce by level 2 via MoMS/pummeling charge

Level one. Take pummeling style for 1st level feat then take pummeling charge with MoMS bonus feat.


@rynjin: looked at the doc, here's various comments/suggestions/complaints. take with a handful of salt because i am sleepdeprived

Spoiler:

-bonus feat options seem pretty great, though i assume there'll be some feats that will be iffy or awkward to grab due to the rate of monk bonus feats vs their bab/skill entry requirements. haven't tested it yet, so cant say for sure.
-small spelling error on page 3 where it says 'stunning fit'
-still not okay with monk's unarmed strikes being limited to only hands/feet/knees/elbows--there are plenty or martial arts styles that use their wrists/shins, hips, and more for striking. i've already noted earlier that style strikes limiting what's supposed to be The Most flexible Weapon Bar None (literally your whole body) opens a lot of bad doors for more monk nerfs.
-small spelling error on page 5 of 'his_ki_pool'
-liking the ki pool expansion
-i'm curious as to why you dont have ki strike as a scaling enhancement bonus, since it grants the same effects and alleviates the whole AoMF issue a lot (still need it for things like frost/fire/etc)
-tongue of sun and moon's earlier access makes it kind of possibly a decent thing now instead of a novelty!
-between flawless mind and a clear spindle stone, i must reiterate my complaints about diamond mind's uselessness.
-quivering palm doesnt mention what type of action or how/when it can be used, only 'once per day'. can you aply it in the same circumstance as a stunning fist attack, or...?
-perfect self has always bothered me--welcome to level 20: none of your buffs work anymore because you're not humanoid! and as an outsider it's harder/impossible to resurrect you if you die! haha, suck it monks!

ki powers:
-diamond mind seems like a terrible choice (especially with the will save having been restored), since you can only activate it if you're already under the effects of a fear effect (i.e. failed your save), and ONLY affects fear stuff (enchantment/mind-affecting are far more common and deadly than fear).
-on diamond reslilience: passive DR5/- by 20th level just doesnt seem worth it--spend a ki point to double it for a while, maybe?
-diamond soul makes no mention of being able to lower it (even for allied/beneficial effects, or if the monk falls unconscious). this might be on purpose, but that doesnt mean it's not entirely silly that they physically cant turn it off once they've turned it on, even if turning it off might save their lives (healing spells).
-3 ki points at 10th level ability to deal a measly 10 damage (at 10th level, mind you) is a waste even before the save-for-half. may adds his elemental fury dice PLUS his monk level? may has extra effects based on the element (like the arcanist elemental exploits)?
-feather balance seems overly specific--how often are you going to be using it to balance that getting a ki power to help it is useful? you could roll it into high jump's ki spending effect and it still wouldnt be overpowered, or (see light steps note below)
-LOVE the formless mastery change, makes it actually useful/attractive.
-you could easily bump ki blocker up to 1 ki/swift action or 2 ki/free action and it'd still be fine--this is a SCARY power against a lot of humanoid opponents (and blows elemental burst right the hell of the water)
-ki guardian changes make sense
-ki hurricane (while the doublemove is nice) seems a weaker option than just going for pummeling charge or flying kick--a doublemove and two attacks (three when you get your next flurry) seems kinda lackluster. perhaps make it 'you can move the distance of your move+monk speed before your flurry', with the extra ki costs being used to spend more of your movement distance between the attacks?
-ki metabolism: i'm unsure why anyone would ever take this power besides the sleep reduction. i'm surprised it doesnt give a bonus against poisons or diseases' onset or something similarly thematic with metabolic control (maybe saves vs extreme temperatures?), but there's other powers for those that grant flat immunity to diseases/poisons. is there any upside whatsoever to spending a ki to appear dead (while remaining utterly defenseless until your timer ends)?
-the ki mount powers seem pretty great. (that improved stealthily allows you to ride/forced run for longer periods on it is neat, i like it)
-for ki visions you may want to mention it works as divination (as per the spell of the same name)
-ki volley: only 2 ki for un-level limited spell turning seems very powerful--i expected the cost to be based on the level of the spell/2 or something (unless it works as the spell turning spell with it's level limits? if so, does it turn into greaer spell turning when you reach a higher level?)
-light steps could be bundled natively into feather balance to make it an acutally attractive option alongside ki steps.
-i like the slow fall changes.
-water sprint costs three powers to get, while wind jump only costs two and seems the far better choice.
-does wholeness of body allow him to heal others as well? there's no mention of it only affecting himself (this isnt a complaint, i like that option)

style strikes:
-defensive spin seems like it'd work just as well with a (spinning back)-elbow or -kick
-elbow smash requires a fist, despite elboes being specifically mentioned in the unarmed strikes section earlier? the 'everything from this is nonlethal-only neener neener' seems like an odd change (using the elbow strike to daze them enough for a damaging follow-up made sense in the older version)
-flying kick obsoletes ki hurricane even further (this is a complaint on hurricane, not flying kick). being kick-only makes sense thematically, but i could jsut as easily see it as a POWER DUNK-style punch or meteor elbow.
-headbutt seems kinda useless--only works on medium/small opponents, huge penalty if they're not humanoid--i'm getting flashbacks of the brawler's awesome blow being double-penalized for no reason. you could easily jump to deadbutt a taler opponent (or headbutt them in the stomach/groin/shin if they're REALLY big), or bend to headbutt a smaller one (there's plenty of martial artists who can put their head to their ankles) i dont see a reason why you couldnt have the size scale with your level, and just putting a penalty on things that dont have a discernable anatomy, rather than non-humanoids (you cant headbutt a bear right now, for example--it's both too large and you're eating a -8 penalty even if you could?)
-why not just say knockback kick lets you attach a bull rush to your attack without eating an AoO instead of using so many words? and i can DEFINITELY see it getting used with a FALCON PUNCH or rising knee to send people flying.
-seriously, leg sweep is listed RIGHT UNDER IT and does this.
-you could easily set shattering punch to monk-level hardness and 1/2 monk level DR, but im fine with this level of power too, though again, there are plenty of powerful, penetrative strikes one could do for this (kicks are literally the best for that kind of thing, or the joking hip-thrust attack).
-spin kick seems like a neat idea for VMC (rogue) builds.

graystone wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
oh? what means of dex-to-hit/damage do they get that arent feat or money-intensive?

You just need 3 levels of unchained rogue and you fixed some of your monk MADness. ;)

AndIMustMask wrote:
monks could get pounce by level 2 via MoMS/pummeling charge
Level one. Take pummeling style for 1st level feat then take pummeling charge with MoMS bonus feat.

1) requires dipping, which as we all know paizo considers a mortal sin worthy of public flogging for being a filthy roll-player

2) good point. lets you pick up dragon style at 2nd as well.


AndIMustMask: With #1, that was my point. The only way MAD was reduced for the unchained monk is with a 3 level dip in another unchained class. I don't get how GeneticDrift thinks it's "not very MAD".

With #2, yes dragon style is a nice pick up. It's important to snag Combat Style Master at 5th so you can have it and pummeling style active right off the bat.


AndIMustMask wrote:
@rynjin: looked at the doc, here's various comments/suggestions/complaints. take with a handful of salt because i am sleepdeprived*
AndIMustMask wrote:
-bonus feat options seem pretty great, though i assume there'll be some feats that will be iffy or awkward to grab due to the rate of monk bonus feats vs their bab/skill entry requirements. haven't tested it yet, so cant say for sure.

Might be, yeah, but I think the expanded list makes up for it.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-small spelling error on page 3 where it says 'stunning fit'...-small spelling error on page 5 of 'his_ki_pool'

Will fix, thanks!

AndIMustMask wrote:
-still not okay with monk's unarmed strikes being limited to only hands/feet/knees/elbows--there are plenty or martial arts styles that use their wrists/shins, hips, and more for striking. i've already noted earlier that style strikes limiting what's supposed to be The Most flexible Weapon Bar None (literally your whole body) opens a lot of bad doors for more monk nerfs.

I've always been of the opinion that "may be made" does not mean "MUST be made", so it's not really a limitation. I haven't touched the Style Strikes yet.

AndIMustMask wrote:

-liking the ki pool expansion

-i'm curious as to why you dont have ki strike as a scaling enhancement bonus, since it grants the same effects and alleviates the whole AoMF issue a lot (still need it for things like frost/fire/etc)

I would rather just provide a Hand Wraps-esque item, since IMO while the double price of the AoMF is overkill, so is entirely obviating the need for it.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-between flawless mind and a clear spindle stone, i must reiterate my complaints about diamond mind's uselessness...diamond mind seems like a terrible choice (especially with the will save having been restored), since you can only activate it if you're already under the effects of a fear effect (i.e. failed your save), and ONLY affects fear stuff (enchantment/mind-affecting are far more common and deadly than fear).

I'm considering changing it to removing any negative condition that relies on a Will save. It seems more of a "safety net" ability than anything else, and I like it as that.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-quivering palm doesnt mention what type of action or how/when it can be used, only 'once per day'. can you aply it in the same circumstance as a stunning fist attack, or...?

Same as Core, yep. It's just a normal attack.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-perfect self has always bothered me--welcome to level 20: none of your buffs work anymore because you're not humanoid! and as an outsider it's harder/impossible to resurrect you if you die! haha, suck it monks!

I agree, but couldn't think of anything better off the top of my head. Suggestions?

AndIMustMask wrote:


-on diamond reslilience: passive DR5/- by 20th level just doesnt seem worth it--spend a ki point to double it for a while, maybe?

I based its progression off of the Barbarian's DR/-, staggered to come in a level later.

AndIMustMask wrote:


-diamond soul makes no mention of being able to lower it (even for allied/beneficial effects, or if the monk falls unconscious). this might be on purpose, but that doesnt mean it's not entirely silly that they physically cant turn it off once they've turned it on, even if turning it off might save their lives (healing spells).

I think the Swift to activate it addresses most of this problem, though an Immediate to lower it might be in order.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-3 ki points at 10th level ability to deal a measly 10 damage (at 10th level, mind you) is a waste even before the save-for-half. may adds his elemental fury dice PLUS his monk level? may has extra effects based on the element (like the arcanist elemental exploits)?

Maybe. I think reducing the cost to 2 Ki would fix it. It's basically an anti-mook/swarm option. Though Dragon Breath already exists...

AndIMustMask wrote:
-feather balance seems overly specific--how often are you going to be using it to balance that getting a ki power to help it is useful? you could roll it into high jump's ki spending effect and it still wouldnt be overpowered, or (see light steps note below)

Not sure, but situational isn't necessarily bad in this case. It's a solid low level power, I think. Maybe just make an "Acrobatics Master" one that replaces this and High Jump though, and just makes it a flat level to Acrobatics, +20 for Ki.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-you could easily bump ki blocker up to 1 ki/swift action or 2 ki/free action and it'd still be fine--this is a SCARY power against a lot of humanoid opponents (and blows elemental burst right the hell of the water)

Hm. Maybe.

AndIMustMask wrote:


-ki hurricane (while the doublemove is nice) seems a weaker option than just going for pummeling charge or flying kick--a doublemove and two attacks (three when you get your next flurry) seems kinda lackluster. perhaps make it 'you can move the distance of your move+monk speed before your flurry', with the extra ki costs being used to spend more of your movement distance between the attacks?

I like it since it lets you be more mobile than either of those. It lets you hop from target to target. Good with Panther Style, perhaps.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-ki metabolism: i'm unsure why anyone would ever take this power besides the sleep reduction. i'm surprised it doesnt give a bonus against poisons or diseases' onset or something similarly thematic with metabolic control (maybe saves vs extreme temperatures?), but there's other powers for those that grant flat immunity to diseases/poisons. is there any upside whatsoever to spending a ki to appear dead (while remaining utterly defenseless until your timer ends)?

It's basically the same as the Internal Alchemist's Breath Mastery, which I like for what it does. Long term breath holding is more useful than it sounds (survive underwater or in a vacuum for a while, and ignore inhaled poisons). It's basically an always on Ki Power that mimics a Ring of Sustenance and an Amulet of Adaptation n one. It's good where it's at IMO.

AndIMustMask wrote:


-for ki visions you may want to mention it works as divination (as per the spell of the same name)

Hm. Thought it did.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-ki volley: only 2 ki for un-level limited spell turning seems very powerful--i expected the cost to be based on the level of the spell/2 or something (unless it works as the spell turning spell with it's level limits? if so, does it turn into greater spell turning when you reach a higher level?)

The fine print of it is "when a spell fails to overcome your spell resistance from Diamond Soul", so it's more limited than Spell Turning as the spell.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-light steps could be bundled natively into feather balance to make it an acutally attractive option alongside ki steps.

This is also a good option instead of the Acrobatics Master thing.

AndIMustMask wrote:


-water sprint costs three powers to get, while wind jump only costs two and seems the far better choice.

Water Sprint has no prior Ki Power prerequisites. Plus it lasts longer, and is activated quicker.

AndIMustMask wrote:
-does wholeness of body allow him to heal others as well? there's no mention of it only affecting himself (this isnt a complaint, i like that option)

Yep! I considered adding a thing that made those Cure spells effectively be on his spell list for the purpose of activating spell-trigger and spell completion items, but I wasn't sure if that'd be overkill (or too wordy).

Thanks for looking it over. =)


What's this monk's hit die?


There was some discussion upthread (which I was reading on my 'phone at the time hence the lack of quoting) about the tension between expanding the bonus feats selection and ignoring prerequisites. How about this for a middle ground:

Instead of ignoring prerequisites entirely, the monk gets to count her Wis bonus in place of her Int and/or Dex bonus for the purpose or meeting feat prerequisites. That way they can (partially) get around annoyances like Expertise clogging everything up without being a total free-for-all.

_
glass.


Chess Pwn wrote:
What's this monk's hit die?

d10.

glass wrote:


There was some discussion upthread (which I was reading on my 'phone at the time hence the lack of quoting) about the tension between expanding the bonus feats selection and ignoring prerequisites. How about this for a middle ground:

Instead of ignoring prerequisites entirely, the monk gets to count her Wis bonus in place of her Int and/or Dex bonus for the purpose or meeting feat prerequisites. That way they can (partially) get around annoyances like Expertise clogging everything up without being a total free-for-all.

_
glass.

Maybe. I've still got some shuffling to do.


I'd need to re-read you various posts on teh Unchained Monk, but I thought you were not in favor of the -8 for Headbutt vs opponents larger than you?

Otherwise, nice work!


I haven't touched the Style Strikes yet. I'm going to do some minor tweaks to them, fix some mistakes, and streamline some of the Ki Powers.

Might change the hit dice to d8 both as a "balancing factor" and a flavor thing. Most people seem to like that idea, and I don't really care (I've never noticed a big difference between d8 and d10 HD characters in practice beyond 1st or 2nd level).


I like the idea of the d8. Someone who needs to be careful in combat, but can dish out some damage!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Rynjin wrote:
I haven't touched the Style Strikes yet. I'm going to do some minor tweaks to them

Well, please let me know what your plans for Headbutt are. The whole -8 business aside, I am trying to come up with an effect better than "different type of stunning fist"


I've also considered dropping the Reflex save to Poor progression, and making Evasion/Improved Evasion a scaling Ki Power that also grants a +2-+4 bonus to Ref saves.


@otherwhere:

Spoiler:
the d8 would set it apart form the other fullbab martials (like the barbarian), but it presents the problem of MAD the monk had pre-unchained--and even the unchained monk didnt really address it: you NEED con, or you're going to get KO'd pretty easily until you can get your AC up to par (i.e. when your dex+wis+monk AC bonus+bracers+barkskin tax+ring catch up to everyone else's dex+armor+armor enhance+neck+ring).

relying on mage armor via wand to patch that isnt feasible till level 2-3, and unless your wizard has nothing better to spend his spells on (he always will) you're not begging a casting off of him (and pearls are more expensive than wands, so that option's off the table too), and you are required almost by law to pay the class ability tax for barkskin to cover the neck slot loss.

TL;DR - the lower HD does little besides promote MAD for the class, since you have to juggle str/dex/con/wis hardcore with all of your 'not allowed's and class ability taxes (this isnt a new problem, but it's still a major one).

The Exchange

graystone wrote:

AndIMustMask: With #1, that was my point. The only way MAD was reduced for the unchained monk is with a 3 level dip in another unchained class. I don't get how GeneticDrift thinks it's "not very MAD".

An agile amulet of mighty fists solves the need for str. You dont need much wisdom either, more is better obviously, but you can easily buff your AC in other ways. Mythic also allows for dex to damage as well as the good 3 lvl dip into unchained rogue. Strength based monks are still MAD, but that seems to be the brawler's role.


GeneticDrift wrote:
graystone wrote:

AndIMustMask: With #1, that was my point. The only way MAD was reduced for the unchained monk is with a 3 level dip in another unchained class. I don't get how GeneticDrift thinks it's "not very MAD".

An agile amulet of mighty fists solves the need for str. You dont need much wisdom either, more is better obviously, but you can easily buff your AC in other ways. Mythic also allows for dex to damage as well as the good 3 lvl dip into unchained rogue. Strength based monks are still MAD, but that seems to be the brawler's role.

Agile amulet of mighty fists: You starting the game a 5th or something? Because if you aren't, MAD is going to spank you HARD until you can afford it (assuming you can just buy/make the items you wish). At best it's a band-aid so you don't notice your MAD not a solution. Dispel/anti-magic and you're going to feel the MAD spank you again. The unchained rogue method actually FIXES some MAD.

Mythic: A nifty option and how I'd prefer they deal with dex ro damage. it's, however, a rare option to have added to a game. As such, it doesn't really factor into a debate over the base class.

The Exchange

There are other ways to do good damage at low levels. find something else to do in combat if you think the damage is not enough. Grapple, trip, aid another. You just need to have a plan.

This is off topic though. I only posted to be a voice suggesting not to push to far with his changes.


It's important when designing a class fix to remember the caster-mundane disparity.

Non-casters that aren't alchemists, investigators, or a fairly specific barbarian build suck. And from a design standpoint alchemists and investigators are casters.

If you're fixing a non-caster and use any non-caster other than the human or dwarven (with steel soul) spell sundering beast totem barbarian as a measuring stick the fix won't fix anything.

The other thing to remember is that if you have two abilities and can only use one you don't really have two abilities. In the context of the monk those would be the ability to purchase enhancement bonuses to natural armor and the ability to purchase enhancement bonuses to attack and damage and the ability to wear armor and the ability to be a monk. The monk is owed a freebie to either AC when fighting unarmed or to unarmed attack and damage. The monk AC bonus exists, but should also be a freebie. It's just replacing the basic defensive baseline that everyone who isn't a full arcane caster gets -- except the monk.

Take something like the paladin divine bond or magus arcane pool (but permanent and for unarmed strikes only) and the AC bonus and take those out of the balance calculus. Now compare to the ranger and paladin.

Is the non-ki stuff the monk gets as good as a mount/pet, smite/favored enemy, lay on hands/favored terrain, and grace or (improved) evasion, the paladin auras and immunities or the rangers skill points? No. Is the ki stuff as good as 4 level casting? Hell no. The pool is much shallower and the abilities aren't as strong and the ranger and paladin are divine prepared casters so they get to choose their powers anew every morning.

You could use AM BARBARIAN as your measuring stick instead, but then you're prone to wind up with the barbarian's vices, most notably limited build variety.

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