Can you use Acrobatics to enter an Enemy's square?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

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Title, plus the assumption that you have an ability that lets you stay there.

An example of this is Mouser's underfoot assault, or a number of style feats.

Specifically referencing the Mouser, the question of size limitations also needs clarifying. Using Underfoot Assault gives you an ability to enter a space, but the rest of the ability does not reference size limitations.

EDIT: Text to Reference

Underfoot Assualt:
Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an Immediate Action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.

While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.

Monkey Shine:
Benefit: While using Monkey Style, if you successfully deliver a Stunning Fist attempt, in addition to the normal effect of Stunning Fist, you can spend a free action to enter a square adjacent to you that is within your opponent's space. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. While you are in your opponent's space, you gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC and a +4 bonus on melee attack rolls against that opponent. If otherwise unhindered, the opponent can move away from you, but if he does, he provokes an attack of opportunity from you even if his choice of movement does not normally do so.

Acrobatics:
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.

Grand Lodge

You can use Acrobatics (albeit at a large penalty) to move through an opponents square. You cannot end your turn there. You need a specific ability like the ability you mentioned, underfoot assualt, or Monkey Shine to stay in an opponents square.

And just because you have those abilities doesn't mean you can use Acrobatics to end your turn in an opponent's square. You have to explicitly use those abilities to end your turn in their square.


You should probably quote the abilities. The acrobatics check however is what might let you avoid an attack of opportunity.

Grand Lodge

claudekennilol wrote:

You can use Acrobatics (albeit at a large penalty) to move through an opponents square. You cannot end your turn there. You need a specific ability like the ability you mentioned, underfoot assualt, or Monkey Shine to stay in an opponents square.

And just because you have those abilities doesn't mean you can use Acrobatics to end your turn in an opponent's square. You have to explicitly use those abilities to end your turn in their square.

The issue here is that it is fairly well established that just being in the enemy square allows you to benefit from both Mouser's Underfoot Assault and Monkey Shine (That Headbutting Songbird build from a while back comes to mind). Your claim suggests that entering the target's square has 'memory' of what ability was used to enter, and that you cannot benefit from both abilities at once.

In the cases presented, the character was Tiny, so they could enter as normal due to size difference. In this case, I am looking at two specific lines, which make no mention of size:

Underfoot Assault wrote:
The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity

and

Acrobatics wrote:
If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.

There is no mention of using the underfoot assault ability to gain the benefits in the second paragraph, including the quoted statement. In the Acrobatics text, there is no mention of having to exit the enemy square. Normal movement rules disallow this, but Underfoot Assault specifically allows you to move within the square.


There have been debates on this before.

One one side of the debate you have people who say entering an opponent's square provokes TWICE, once for leaving your threatened square and once for entering the opponent's square. In order to avoid AoOs you need to eliminate both provokes.

Acrobatics lets you avoid provoking when you leave a threatened square but it says nothing about letting you avoid provoking when you enter an enemy's space, so acrobatics only prevents one of the two provokes.

You would need a different reason to prevent the provoke for entering an enemy's square.

On the other side of the debate are those who say you're only crossing one border between squares so even though you're potentially provoking twice, anything that shields you from provoking should shield you for the act of leaving your square and entering the enemy's square.

On this side of the argument, acrobatics shields you on this movement so there will be no provoke at all.

Ultimately, this may just be up to your GM.

(Yes, I know "provoke" is a verb and "provocation" is the noun, but we don't seem to use the game term this way so I deliberately didn't either).


Maybe the mouser does not care about size difference, and since it does not provoke acrobatics would not even be needed.
Acrobatics doe not mention the rule because the general combat rules say you can't do it. Also "moving through" a square when used in the game is saying that you move onto the next square. The only way acrobatics could allow you to stay in a specific square would be if it had a rules exception. As an example acrobatic specifically allows you to avoid taking damage if you fall 10 feet.

Grand Lodge

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Underfoot Assault wrote:
The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity

Yes, it does say that. It says within. As in once you're in it you can "move around within the square" freely. It doesn't say that you can just walk into the square all willy-nilly without actually using the first part of underfoot assault which you neglected to quote.

Underfoot Assault wrote:

1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.

While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.

Nowhere does Underfoot Assault say that you can negate the rule of not being allowed to enter a foe's square except for when using that specific part of the ability. The two lines you're cherry-picking don't negate the rule that you simply can't enter an opponent's square. Of course it worked for the tiny creatures. They're tiny and have their own rules that negate that (specific trumps general). The abilities you're pointing out don't have any such rules.

Wraithstrike already pointed out that moving through means just that. Moving through.

Grand Lodge

Actually, as he pointed out, through is not defined. Through could mean into, or into, then out of. If using Acrobatics to move through an enemy square required, at minimum, 10 ft of movement, wouldn't the ability say something to that effect?

As to the Mouser point: I am not cherry picking lines. You appear to be linking the first and the second paragraphs. The second paragraph's requirements do not extend to the second, because if they did, you would not benefit from it in the Tiny creature example.

The basis of this question is whether the fact that acrobatics allows you to enter an enemy square, and Mouser lets you end your movement there interacts as the rules currently say they do.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

Actually, as he pointed out, through is not defined. Through could mean into, or into, then out of. If using Acrobatics to move through an enemy square required, at minimum, 10 ft of movement, wouldn't the ability say something to that effect?

As to the Mouser point: I am not cherry picking lines. You appear to be linking the first and the second paragraphs. The second paragraph's requirements do not extend to the second, because if they did, you would not benefit from it in the Tiny creature example.

The basis of this question is whether the fact that acrobatics allows you to enter an enemy square, and Mouser lets you end your movement there interacts as the rules currently say they do.

The fact that you have Mouser is what allows you to stay in the square, not acrobatics. I think you are over complicating things.

Basically without mouser you can not stay in the square. If you have mouser then you can. Also if you have mouser then you may need acrobatics to get right up to the opponent, but the CMD is the one for moving through an enemy's threatened area. When you finally move into the square there is no provoking because mouser, if it does nothing else with regard to provoking gives you that last square for free.

But let's say you are already standing right beside the larger creature. Then you do not need to use acrobatics at all. Just freely step into the square.

If you are asking does acrobatics prevent the use of mouser, then no it does not.

edit: If a word is not a game term then we default to the common dictionary use of the word. The game does not use moving "into" a square the same as moving "through" a square. That is consistent throughout the rules.

edit: I misread Underfoot Assault and mouser. I will make a new post.

Grand Lodge

Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:

Actually, as he pointed out, through is not defined. Through could mean into, or into, then out of. If using Acrobatics to move through an enemy square required, at minimum, 10 ft of movement, wouldn't the ability say something to that effect?

As to the Mouser point: I am not cherry picking lines. You appear to be linking the first and the second paragraphs. The second paragraph's requirements do not extend to the second, because if they did, you would not benefit from it in the Tiny creature example.

The basis of this question is whether the fact that acrobatics allows you to enter an enemy square, and Mouser lets you end your movement there interacts as the rules currently say they do.

I'm not linking the two. Mouser only lets you end your turn there if you use the first part of underfoot assault to do so. The second paragraph does not say "you may move into an opponent's square." It says "you may move within" and "you may leave". It doesn't have any language stating that you "you may enter" or "you may move into". "Within" implies you are already there. If they meant that you could simply enter an opponent's square because you're a mouser they would have been much more clear stating so, because it would have been abundantly easy to make that clear. So to me "you may move within" simply implies you have no penalties being applied to you (i.e. as if you're squeezing or some such thing) for being within an opponent's square. I don't know where you got the idea that I said the second paragraph explicitly relies on the first. The second paragraph simply has rules for while you're within an opponent's space, but it doesn't have any extra rules about being able to enter an opponent's space, as you seem to think it does.


Going back to what I said before you need a specific exception to break a rule. Acrobatics does not specifically allow you to stay in anyone's square. The game differentiates between "moving through", and "moving into".

Otherwise moving through an ally's square per the combat chapter would allow you to stay there, just as much as acrobatics would, but in reality neither one of them allows you to stay in the square.

Underfoot Assualt, which I see is not a feat allows you to move into the square if you are missed with an attack, and yes it allows you to stay there. However this has nothing to do with acrobatics. You could have 0 ranks in acrobatics and this would still work.

Now if you are asking can you acrobatics into the square and stop the answer is no because underfoot assault only allows you to enter the enemy square under a very specific condition. That condition is "if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an Immediate Action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space".

Since the game consistently uses move through and move into differently you would have to show consistent misuse to set a precedent that "move through" and "move into" are synonymous.

Silver Crusade

DM_Blake wrote:
One one side of the debate you have people who say entering an opponent's square provokes TWICE, once for leaving your threatened square and once for entering the opponent's square. In order to avoid AoOs you need to eliminate both provokes.

Unless there's some other rule I'm unaware of, this falls firmly into the house rules camp. The rules for provoking are pretty cut and dried, and don't mention entering an enemies square at all:

Spoiler:

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity

Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Tiny Creatures:

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. 25 Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.

The question is, is this the same as

Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so. Which might be covered by acrobatics.

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