Could you play an awakened animal?


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Say a party of adventurers, with their usual style of messing with everything they came across, decided that they were going to use awaken on like... 20 raccoon. Then they built them a little society to live in a nearby forest to a large city.

Awaken

Would awakened, intelligent raccoon be able to breed 'true'?

As in their children would be awakened too, or would they come out as normal Raccoon?

I am leaning towards thinking they could, since it does explicitly state their type changes to Magical Beast which normally could be intelligent. And since the type change is permanent, it *should* be passed on if that creature breeds with another of it's type.

If they could breed true, could that be an example of how other animal playable races (Catfolk, vanaran, kitsune) eventually became their own species?

What if a bard was involved?

Since raccoon have hands with digits and could operate properly sized tools, could it be possible to play an awakened raccoon?

Perhaps the beginning of the 'tanuki' race? (Albeit without oversized... well, anatomy)

What are your thoughts?

Grand Lodge

1) Depends on how the GM rules, there is nothing official about it that I am aware of.

2) Again, depends on how the GM rules, this is likely however

3) What would a bard have to do with it?

4) For the third time, GM decision. Yes it is possible, but this is WELL outside the normal rules now and is 210% GM Fiat territory.

In all, the answer is Yes, it COULD all work that way. However, your GM will have final say.


Dafydd wrote:


3) What would a bard have to do with it?

Depending on the stereotype of bard lasciviousness you ascribe to, either everything, or nothing at all. :P


I think the animal races have other worldly outsider origins.


It is an intriguing idea.

The question of if Awaken would breed true came up on another thread and someone said it wouldn't. Can't say why they said that. Your argument that the type changes sounds valid to me... or rather its up to the GM.

And Awakened animals are mentioned in the Bestiary Levels. So if its OK with the GM...

I have another idea. Awaken a number of plants suitable for pot plants. With some aid from their Druid progenitor, they can certainly breed faster than any animal. And you can all play pot plants and have a Flower Pot Men campaign. Given their rate of reproduction you can have a shot at taking over Golarion, now re-named Flower Pot World.

And you are not thinking like a PC party. An army of intelligent Dinosaurs, suitably armed and armoured, sweeping across Golarion conquering lead by their progenitors. Conquering Golarion is just the beginning... Muh huh huh.


I doubt awakened creatures breed and then birth other awakened creatures. Genetically the creature is the same. You've simply given it a massive magical expansion to it's intellect, what you haven't done is change it's genetic make up thus it has nothing but raccoon genes to pass on. However that is just my uninformed take on this.


As a GM, I'd totally allow it... Unless it was for a cheesy reason.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If it was that simple, than Golarion would be absolutely flooded with awakened intelligent animals.

Since that's not the case, the answer must be no.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Combine it with a permanent anthropomorphic animal spell (ultimate magic) and you have rocket raccoon. Maybe even a crazy Dr. Moreau mage would be a good plot hook?

Awaken would likely not pass on to offspring.

Anthropomorphic would likely alter a creature thus that either genes couldn't pass on, or could only pass on with others of the same species that were altered in the same manner. Either way, it's a mage playing at mad experiments.


Are you inquiring about an origin for a snarky raccoon gunslinger, by chance?


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LazarX wrote:

If it was that simple, than Golarion would be absolutely flooded with awakened intelligent animals.

Since that's not the case, the answer must be no.

If we view things from a strictly logical perspective, then many creatures would be completely extinct (because of adventurer over hunting), nobility would never die prematurely or suffer from illness (because of restorative magic, and the wealth to access it), the world economy would suffer from titanic inflation (because an endless amount of wealth would be added by adventurers dumping highly expensive objects carelessly into every marketplace, making fiscal management impossible), and half-elves and half-orcs would not only be unlikely to breed true, but would most likely be sterile (because of the genetic repercussions of cross species pairing).

Goblins still live somehow.


Scythia wrote:
LazarX wrote:

If it was that simple, than Golarion would be absolutely flooded with awakened intelligent animals.

Since that's not the case, the answer must be no.

If we view things from a strictly logical perspective, then many creatures would be completely extinct...

Goblins still live somehow.

This, alone, is the perfect example. But the rest was also very valid points.


Scythia wrote:
Are you inquiring about an origin for a snarky raccoon gunslinger, by chance?

Nah, we already have that in my Carrion Crown Campaign. Rogue rescued a raccoon that was being vivisected by one of the bad guys and got it healed and fed. Followed the party around and occasionally gave the rogue shinies until he finally convinced the rest of the party to awaken him.

It just so happened that I'm playing the party's gunslinger, and the rogue's sister, so he threw some cash my way and asked me to make him a musket sized for him. I have *nooo* idea why though... :p

I was mostly curious because as far as animals go, those with hand-like appendages are most likely to not need something other than Awaken. Since Anthropomorphic animal is a lot more money to make a permanent thing per individual member of the awakened race. So a Raccoon, with tools sized for them and possibly either class levels in Druid or Skill ranks in UMD and some scrolls of Awaken would have better odds of making a sentient species than those who would need basically a facility that can spend the money and spellcasting to permanently anthropomorphize and awaken animals. (Besides the fact that anthropomorphic animal sets their Int at 3, so should be cast *before* awaken or else you just proved you need the spell for yourself)

That, and I can imagine what kind of faith, philosophy, or religion that would spawn 2,000 years later about the 'origins' of the "Tanook" Peoples.


Who is to say that an awakened animal can breed at all? If you are looking at this from a scientific point of view the change is a massive mutation of the animal. Changes on this level often render a subject sterile. Even if the subject is not sterile their species may change to the point they can no longer breed with other animals. They have in effect become a whole new species. Each casting of awaken could create a completely different species so that even other awakened animals of the same base species still cannot breed with each other.

Also unless you awaken a lot more than 20 raccoons you are not going to have enough genetic diversity to avoid inbreeding. The trait for being an awakened animal is probably a recessive trait so both parents would need to be awakened or the offspring would be a normal raccoon. This could allow for a small group of intelligent raccoons that eventually dies off due to inbreeding and crossbreeding. It would also be enough to allow you to play an awakened raccoon without having to total change the world.

Since there are valid arguments either way what it really comes down to is GM’s option.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Who is to say that an awakened animal can breed at all? If you are looking at this from a scientific point of view the change is a massive mutation of the animal. Changes on this level often render a subject sterile. Even if the subject is not sterile their species may change to the point they can no longer breed with other animals. They have in effect become a whole new species. Each casting of awaken could create a completely different species so that even other awakened animals of the same base species still cannot breed with each other.

Also unless you awaken a lot more than 20 raccoons you are not going to have enough genetic diversity to avoid inbreeding. The trait for being an awakened animal is probably a recessive trait so both parents would need to be awakened or the offspring would be a normal raccoon. This could allow for a small group of intelligent raccoons that eventually dies off due to inbreeding and crossbreeding. It would also be enough to allow you to play an awakened raccoon without having to total change the world.

Since there are valid arguments either way what it really comes down to is GM’s option.

Species can still survive despite a severe lack of genetic diversity.

It greatly hurts their chances, yes, but it is still deal-able, especially if the species is intelligent.

Dark Archive

I'd say two awakened animals (of the same species, obviously) might be able to produce awakened (or at least semi-awakened) offspring, but that the genetic strain would wash out in a few generations, resulting in ever more "stupid" generations, until it was back to normal animal intellect.

It'd be awesome to play an awakened animal, I think. Maybe a raven rogue or something.


Really just a ton of just made up, weird assertions about the interaction of science and magic in this thread. This is, as was initially stated, purely GM fiat.

When it comes to reproduction it probably requires at least two awakened raccoons. I have no idea what would happen if an awakened animal mated with a non-awakened animal. Sadly for all of us, The Mating Habits of Golarion probably won't come out for another ten years. Until then guessing at things is fine. But asserting a correct answer to this question is preposterous; none of us know how awakening interacts with an animal's genome and reproductive qualities, so let's stop pretending we're sure.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bruno Kristensen wrote:

I'd say two awakened animals (of the same species, obviously) might be able to produce awakened (or at least semi-awakened) offspring, but that the genetic strain would wash out in a few generations, resulting in ever more "stupid" generations, until it was back to normal animal intellect.

It'd be awesome to play an awakened animal, I think. Maybe a raven rogue or something.

On the last LSJ table I played in Mepacon last weekend. two of the players were characters affected by a special polymorph effect from a previous module that has left them as dogs.


noble peasant wrote:
Genetically the creature is the same. You've simply given it a massive magical expansion to it's intellect, what you haven't done is change it's genetic make up thus it has nothing but raccoon genes to pass on.

The rules tell us an awakened creature has a boost to intellect and its creature type changes to magical beast.

They don't say anything about the genes being changed or not.

Every manner of thing works differently in Galarion to the real world. It is not clear that anything has genes. It is a world where magic works, souls exist for certain and devils, angels and dragons exist and can and do breed with humans. The governing principles behind the universe and life is very different.


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Joynt Jezebel wrote:
noble peasant wrote:
Genetically the creature is the same. You've simply given it a massive magical expansion to it's intellect, what you haven't done is change it's genetic make up thus it has nothing but raccoon genes to pass on.

The rules tell us an awakened creature has a boost to intellect and its creature type changes to magical beast.

They don't say anything about the genes being changed or not.

Every manner of thing works differently in Galarion to the real world. It is not clear that anything has genes. It is a world where magic works, souls exist for certain and devils, angels and dragons exist and can and do breed with humans. The governing principles behind the universe and life is very different.

...

In the Golarion setting earth exists. The PCs go there in an AP at about the time of WWI.

Spoiler:
They get shot at by tanks. Earth turned out the same in that setting, so it is a fairly good indicator that genes are a thing like the other scientific discoveries that historically happened before WWI, even if there is other magical stuff underlying that.


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Snowblind wrote:


In the Golarion setting earth exists. The PCs go there in an AP at about the time of WWI. They get shot at by tanks. ** spoiler omitted **

In case you were confused, the Earth in a pathfinder AP is as fictional as Golarion is. In the really real world, there were no wizards and elves from a magical world in WWI Russia.


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Dave Justus wrote:
Snowblind wrote:


In the Golarion setting earth exists. ** spoiler omitted **
In case you were confused, the Earth in a pathfinder AP is as fictional as Golarion is. In the really real world, there were no wizards and elves from a magical world in WWI Russia.

Really? I felt for a moment there, that pehaps it was all true;)


Personally, I would not allow awaken to breed true without much more massively powerful magic.

Your raccoon still has a brain the size of a walnut. Ok, yes the first one was some how magically given intelligence housed within a walnut sized brain. But no magic is being done to the descendants. So no.

But I am aware some GM's will reason otherwise. But if I had a GM that did allow it, I can't image playing anything other than a long life Elf druid who can make whole nations worth of various intelligent creatures who look up to him as their creator.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Who is to say that an awakened animal can breed at all? If you are looking at this from a scientific point of view the change is a massive mutation of the animal. Changes on this level often render a subject sterile. Even if the subject is not sterile their species may change to the point they can no longer breed with other animals. They have in effect become a whole new species. Each casting of awaken could create a completely different species so that even other awakened animals of the same base species still cannot breed with each other.

Given that in Pathfinder most humanoids can breed between different races, even alien (elves come from another planet still half elves are a thing) and with Outsiders and Undeads (dhampirs), biological compatibility in this world is a non-issue as long as the intercourse is mechanically viable.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
This could allow for a small group of intelligent raccoons that eventually dies off due to inbreeding and crossbreeding.

This only happens if you have some recessive illness in the genetic pool to begin with. Some breeding farms DO inbreeding to keep off "bad" genes from external specimens for example.

If you have some illness stemming from inbreeding you always could cast it away with a Remove Disease.


ElterAgo wrote:

Personally, I would not allow awaken to breed true without much more massively powerful magic.

Your raccoon still has a brain the size of a walnut. Ok, yes the first one was some how magically given intelligence housed within a walnut sized brain. But no magic is being done to the descendants. So no.

As if Intelligence is related to brain size lol. Why the dragon Whelp has 10 int and still is Small?


*All the answers to all your questions really are 'Ask your GM' but if I were the GM this is what I would rule since you also asked for out thoughts*

1) Would awakened, intelligent raccoon be able to breed 'true'? As in their children would be awakened too, or would they come out as normal Raccoon?

I am guessing not. Awaken does not indicate anything but a heightening of intelligence and the target is a single creature not that creature and all future offspring.

Now I might say a Mythic Awaken 'Heightened' to 9th level and some additional cash and rituals MIGHT be able to make a new intelligent race in such fashion. Maybe.

2) If they could breed true, could that be an example of how other animal playable races (Catfolk, vanaran, kitsune) eventually became their own species?

Possibly. Your character would need to do a lot of researching and adventuring to try and find out.

3) What if a bard was involved?

The resulting group of raccoons might take a more musical bent to their new society.

4) Since raccoon have hands with digits and could operate properly sized tools, could it be possible to play an awakened raccoon?

I would allow it after an appropriate length of basic schooling so the newly awakened raccoons would be at an equal maturity and skill level as the young adults who normally start such training from all other races.

Although with the life span of a Raccoon (2-3 years in the wild roughly) it may be possible they die of old age before learning how to be some of the classes that have longer initial training lengths, as indicated by the starting ages of some of them.

Just to make them playable I would say sure and double the lifespan given the inference of better quality food and health care habits they would have access to and learn as awakened creatures.

Liberty's Edge

I am playing in a campaign with an Awakened animal PC.


I appreciate all the debating about the validity and possibility of this discussion.

Now, since it seems that most of the responses are based in 'nothing in the rules, ask the DM', Of the things above, what would be some good arguments to make it more likely the DM would say yes?


I played an awakened wolf ranger several years back and my DM was totally cool with the idea when I suggested it. If the character idea can mesh well with the game then I see no reason why not.


Well, some people are just going to flat out not allow it, for myriad reasons. Arguments most likely won't work on them.

Assuming they're amenable, pizza and beer bribes may work. You'd also have to discuss how your character would react to being constantly driven out of town, being seen as an ill omen, ostracization, etc.


rungok wrote:

I appreciate all the debating about the validity and possibility of this discussion.

Now, since it seems that most of the responses are based in 'nothing in the rules, ask the DM', Of the things above, what would be some good arguments to make it more likely the DM would say yes?

The fact thath the type of the creature changes from Animal to Magical Beast indicates that the change is in the whole biology of the creature rather than an acquired ability so you don't have to argue whether Lamarck was right.


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I'm so much tempted to make an awakened animal village for some reason. Probably dogs. Shouldn't take much to convince them they are my indentured servants.


Yes I could and have played awakened animals. I enjoy the non-humanoid experience.

Thank you for asking.

(Subtitle for the Humor-Impaired: This has been a joke.)


Entryhazard wrote:
As if Intelligence is related to brain size lol. Why the dragon Whelp has 10 int and still is Small?

In the real world the size of the brain as compared to the size of the animal is very related to intelligence.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
As if Intelligence is related to brain size lol. Why the dragon Whelp has 10 int and still is Small?
In the real world the size of the brain as compared to the size of the animal is very related to intelligence.

Some creatures with very small brains however, like Parrots can make some surprising feats of language, not just in their mimicry, but in their way of relating what they hear to the interaction of the people around them.


LazarX wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
As if Intelligence is related to brain size lol. Why the dragon Whelp has 10 int and still is Small?
In the real world the size of the brain as compared to the size of the animal is very related to intelligence.
Some creatures with very small brains however, like Parrots can make some surprising feats of language, not just in their mimicry, but in their way of relating what they hear to the interaction of the people around them.

Actually to me more concrete, brain size has nothing to do with intelligence. Fact. Here is the link for proof. [url=http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-brain-size-doesnt-correlate-with-intelligence-180947627/?no-ist[/url]

Never tried to link before, not sure if I did it right.


Meiliken wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Joynt Jezebel wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
As if Intelligence is related to brain size lol. Why the dragon Whelp has 10 int and still is Small?
In the real world the size of the brain as compared to the size of the animal is very related to intelligence.
Some creatures with very small brains however, like Parrots can make some surprising feats of language, not just in their mimicry, but in their way of relating what they hear to the interaction of the people around them.

Actually to me more concrete, brain size has nothing to do with intelligence. Fact. Here is the link for proof. _

Never tried to link before, not sure if I did it right.

Why Brain Size Doesn't Correlate With Intelligence

You needed one more right bracket and a link title in between the tags.

If the Awakened Animals didn't breed true, but if they lived long enough for some members of the population to be able to learn to cast Awaken, you could get a self-maintaining (although precarious) population of Awakened Animals.


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Looks like someone got some science in my chocolate, or did I get my fantasy in the peanut butter?


We allow it in our games. For character creation we just use the base animal stats, using CR as level equivalent...

Mental stats are treated as human (base 10), physicals get appropriate modifiers...

Example:

Awakened Wolf

STR +2, DEX +4, CON +4, INT/WIS/CHA +0
Has two hit dice and counts as your first level. No favored class bonus.

Seems overpowered, till you remember that they don't have thumbs...

As for breeding, we have always treated it as a recessive trait-two awakened parents produce awakened offspring, no other combo does.

I've played all kinds of awakened animals in games, it's really fun. My favorite was a 3.x game, it was a mix of songbirds, squirrels and small fey races protecting their forest glade from encroaching baddies (goblinoids and giant chopping down the forest).

Lasted a dozen levels, tons of fun.


As to the actual title of the thread? yes, I would allow an awakened animal as a PC race if the player thinks he can handle it.
.
.

Entryhazard wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:

Personally, I would not allow awaken to breed true without much more massively powerful magic.

Your raccoon still has a brain the size of a walnut. Ok, yes the first one was some how magically given intelligence housed within a walnut sized brain. But no magic is being done to the descendants. So no.

As if Intelligence is related to brain size lol. Why the dragon Whelp has 10 int and still is Small?

While I would agree that slight size changes have nothing to do with raw intelligence, order of magnitude changes do.

There was a push a while back to measure brain size vs. lifetime accomplishments. It was determined to be totally without merit.
This makes sense since most everyone will agree that people don't really use anywhere close to the maximum capacity of the human brain. Even the few people that do approach that limit, only do so very tiny increments of time.
{The 10% study that everyone used to quote is popcorn science and meaningless, but still no where near max capacity.}

Consider if you go buy a brand new full power top of the line gaming desktop computer, but you only play some old 1990's games. If the power/speed/capability/size of your computer is increased or decreased by 5%, you will never notice. You can even get a laptop to easily run those older games. But if I give you a computer contained in a watch case for the processor, video, ram, cooling storage. You will notice the difference even with those old games.

Current best guesses are that organic brains function more along the lines of parallel distributed processing matrix rather than traditional linear decision trees programming. But that is still processing and requires more processing capability for the more complex 'things' being taken care of.
Or to a certain extent, some theories suggest you may be able to trade the speed for complexity. Basically that a less capable computer could parallel process an extremely complex subject if you give it a very long time to work on it. If I understood correctly, it was using a small part of the matrix to constantly remember and remap the rest of the matrix to pretend it was a larger matrix. But I honestly did not understand those theories, so can't comment much other than to admit they are out there.

Even in game terms. A Halfling is 'small' size and average intelligence. Just a really rough estimate based on some of the immediate pictures I can find, a Halfling (or Gnome) head appears to be larger proportionally than human. But not quite as large in an absolute sense. Let's guess at 10% radius reduction or approx 25% volume reduction.
But a raccoon is basically housecat sized. That is several orders of magnitude reduction. I would have to look it up, but I think their actual brainpan is even smaller than a housecat.
Animals devote a larger portion of their brain function to automatic and instinctual activities like breathing and jumping.
So you could say the spell actually converts some of that usage to intellectual activities (but then they should lose some of the other things like high dex or racial bonus to say climbing).

I guess thinking about it some more. I wouldn't allow awakened raccoons to breed fully intelligent offspring, but I might give them say a +2 to intelligence.


I am so gonna Awake a Tyrannosaurus with my shaman:) then she can be a backup character:) and get a Fricking Katana:)


Cap. Darling wrote:
I am so gonna Awake a Tyrannosaurus with my shaman:) then she can be a backup character:) and get a Fricking Katana:)

Awaken doesn't give them thumbs. But you might be able to talk your GM into allowing a Scizore.


ElterAgo wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
I am so gonna Awake a Tyrannosaurus with my shaman:) then she can be a backup character:) and get a Fricking Katana:)
Awaken doesn't give them thumbs. But you might be able to talk your GM into allowing a Scizore.

I will just get someone to glue it on:)


Cap. Darling wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
I am so gonna Awake a Tyrannosaurus with my shaman:) then she can be a backup character:) and get a Fricking Katana:)
Awaken doesn't give them thumbs. But you might be able to talk your GM into allowing a Scizore.
I will just get someone to glue it on:)

Slap the half dragon template on it. If it gives a snake claw attacks, I would argue thumbs aren't much of a stretch.


alexd1976 wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:
I am so gonna Awake a Tyrannosaurus with my shaman:) then she can be a backup character:) and get a Fricking Katana:)
Awaken doesn't give them thumbs. But you might be able to talk your GM into allowing a Scizore.
I will just get someone to glue it on:)
Slap the half dragon template on it. If it gives a snake claw attacks, I would argue thumbs aren't much of a stretch.

i doubt i can find a half dragon dino. Unless some of the local dragons have very peculiar taste in romantic partners.


All you gotta do is figure out how to apply it... in Pathfinder, it isn't just about mating.

Also, this would increase INT by 2, bypassing need to awaken it...

Or, awaken first, THEN do template. :D

In any case, I wouldn't use glue, I would rivet the sword(s) in place. Less likely to come loose.


ElterAgo wrote:

But a raccoon is basically housecat sized. That is several orders of magnitude reduction. I would have to look it up, but I think their actual brainpan is even smaller than a housecat.

Animals devote a larger portion of their brain function to automatic and instinctual activities like breathing and jumping.
So you could say the spell actually converts some of that usage to intellectual activities (but then they should lose some of the other things like high dex or racial bonus to say climbing).

A Faerie Dragon is Tiny and has a whopping 16 Int.

You can say that it's magic, but this magic breeds true as his offsping doesn't suddenly drop to 2-3 int because Tiny. An Awakened Raccon is a Magical Beast. Its biology is mutated to include magical enhancement as baseline. His offspring can very well be a Magical Beast too.


Entryhazard wrote:
ElterAgo wrote:

But a raccoon is basically housecat sized. That is several orders of magnitude reduction. I would have to look it up, but I think their actual brainpan is even smaller than a housecat.

Animals devote a larger portion of their brain function to automatic and instinctual activities like breathing and jumping.
So you could say the spell actually converts some of that usage to intellectual activities (but then they should lose some of the other things like high dex or racial bonus to say climbing).

A Faerie Dragon is Tiny and has a whopping 16 Int.

You can say that it's magic, but this magic breeds true as his offsping doesn't suddenly drop to 2-3 int because Tiny. An Awakened Raccon is a Magical Beast. Its biology is mutated to include magical enhancement as baseline. His offspring can very well be a Magical Beast too.

That's a good point. I can see the reasoning for allowing it. But dragons are very magical beasties. I wouldn't through a fit if my GM decided to allow it. But I wouldn't if I was the GM. I look at as Awaken is just enough of a change to give it intelligence which makes it a magical beast. In my opinion it isn't enough to make a complete new and much improved species.

Awaken is only a 5th level spell. That is not that far out of the 'quite a few people in the world have had it counting all of history' kind of thing. Golarion isn't buried in intelligent swarms of mosquitoes, alligators, etc...
Plus I don't think a 5th level spell should be that potentially permanently world changing. I might allow a 9th level version that would provide intelligence that breeds true. But not at 5th level.

Liberty's Edge

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If you want to try playing an awakened animal, have I got an adventure for you!

Kobold Press has a cool little adventure called Nevermore by Richard Pett in which you all play awakened ravens. As if that's not cool enough for you, it's available for the super secret, low low price of ... free! :)

Pop over and download your copy before Richard or Wolfgang find out! :)


ElterAgo wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:

A Faerie Dragon is Tiny and has a whopping 16 Int.

You can say that it's magic, but this magic breeds true as his offsping doesn't suddenly drop to 2-3 int because Tiny. An Awakened Raccon is a Magical Beast. Its biology is mutated to include magical enhancement as baseline. His offspring can very well be a Magical Beast too.
That's a good point. I can see the reasoning for allowing it. But dragons are very magical beasties. I wouldn't through a fit if my GM decided to allow it. But I wouldn't if I was the GM. I look at as Awaken is just enough of a change to give it intelligence which makes it a magical beast. In my opinion it isn't enough to make a complete new and much improved species.

On Earth, some birds (including crows/ravens) are reportedly much smarter than you would expect for their brain size, meaning that they manage to get more mileage out of their brain matter than we do. A Faerie Dragon could be like this, with enough additional brain matter compared to a bird (and/or maybe even higher brain efficiency) to be able to outsmart the average Humanoid. (Or maybe they've figured out how to overclock their brains safely.)

ElterAgo wrote:
Awaken is only a 5th level spell. That is not that far out of the 'quite a few people in the world have had it counting all of history' kind of thing. Golarion isn't buried in intelligent swarms of mosquitoes, alligators, etc...

Intelligent swarms of mosquitoes? Having been down to Florida, THAT'S A SCARY THOUGHT. (Interesting observation: In the boat rental/dock tourist zone on the edge of the Everglades, the mosquitoes and larger biting flies were a vicious swarm worthy of Creeping Doom, but flying. But once we got into the Everglades on the rented houseboat, the mosquitoes and other biting flies became nearly absent.)

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