I'm GMing a setting I came up with (and probably accidentally copies someone else, the number of original ideas is dwindling rapidly so it would not be surprising) and I need to figure out how I should go about doing population growth.
Background
An advanced planet with magic allowing for a near modern world has pretty much given up war, has wiped out or civilized most of the savage species and has little in the way of land left for expansion. There is talk of world government. There are hospitals, public schools, a mix of flourishing democracies and monarchies and early firearms are the main tool of the military (Commonplace Guns).
This advanced world still has a thirst for exploration and adventure, and powerful mages scryed across the galaxy and found a habitable planet, seemingly devoid of intelligent life, created by the same over-deity that created their own; the animal and plant life is essentially identical, though some magical and monstrous species that had been made extinct on their own world still exist on this one.
The world's governments send over soldiers, druids and rangers to tame a small area of land (no clerics, paladins or oracles; their power comes from deities, their deities don't have power on this planet and this planet has not had any deities seeded, yet). Later comes the labourers, tradesmen and leaders to start building the colony.
The players are among a group that won a lottery to colonize the new world.
What Players "Know"
Everything above. They are going to a new planet to help colonize. When they are about to leave, something goes wrong with the magic and machines keeping the portal open. Majority of the NPCs with them die in the resulting chaotic magic and they see the machines explode as they get transported through the portal, getting knocked out by the shockwave. They awake and are taken along with other relatively uninjured survivors to the single settlement that has been constructed.
The Harsh Reality
A radical environmentalist group from their home planet, sponsored by a demon lord, sabotaged the machines (which took decades to design and build) that helped stabilize the portal to the new planet. The explosion wiped out a massive portion of the world's largest city along with most of the world's strongest mages which were there to power the portal and many world leaders overseeing the project. The destabilization of the portal ripped open a doorway straight to the Abyss, which has invaded. The homeworld is in chaos and is unable to send more people and supplies to the new colony. Communication with the distant planet is hampered by the doorway to the Abyss.
The leaders of the colony find out what happened, but the existence of the terrorists was unknown to most of the population and the fate of the homeworld is kept from them. Further, there are in fact intelligent species on the planet, though the politicians have kept this from much of the population. These people are still in the stone age. A corrupt politician has managed to claim control over the colony after his superiors all had "accidents" and died. He sets up his cronies to run farms, mines and other industry further from the city, which are operated by captured slaves from the primitive population.
A player that makes an appropriate knowledge check may know about the threat of the terrorists, but not about the demon lord or the fate of the homeworld.
The Problem
With connection to the homeworld cut off, there is no easy way to increase the population except through slaves (which are not integrated with the rest of society, which grew up in a world without slavery except in a handful of nations that were in the process of giving it up). While the players will have to make choices as they discover what is happening, even if they decide to overthrow the government and manage the colony themselves and set up relations with the primitive peoples, they can't rapidly gain population from them. It's the stone age versus technological magic giving a near modern world and a transition like that would be far too confusing to happen rapidly.
I and the players will have to keep track of population to determine how large the settlement can get. I need an idea of what natural growth would be and an idea of how long it would take before nearby primitives could start integrating into a more advanced society. Obviously if the players decide to go evil (unlikely), they could just help the corrupt leadership and integrate slaves into society (or take over and do it themselves), removing population issues (although creating the possibility of slave revolts).
Not Necessarily Important Information
- There are mythic people living on the planet that will ascend to godhood once they are powerful enough, creating a pantheon. If the players discover this, they can help the process in order to allow for clerics and such or hinder it and steal the mythic power (mythic power through murder!).
- After getting cut off from the homeworld, firearms go from Commonplace Guns down to Emerging Guns. The colony does not have the capacity to mass produce enough firearms and ammunition to equip all soldiers, requiring them to adopt more primitive weapons (though still far more advanced than the locals).
- I will be making some rolls in the background to determine what is happening on the homeworld. This could lead to the Abyss attempting to invade the colony in the late game. If the players manage to work things out just right (help at least one mythic person ascend and build up the magical strength of the colony) they can head home as mythic characters themselves (granted by the ascended deity or deities) and try to help push back the Abyss. Or join the Abyss if they're feeling particularly nasty. Or try to kill everyone and everything if they're feeling Chaotic Stupid.
Okay, assuming it's possible to reproduce with the alien species, what then? If they don't have enough people to avoid the genetic deterioration from excessive inbreeding on their own, mixing with the other race won't help either. Eventually, their bloodline will be completely diluted by the influence of the alien DNA. As I see it, the players have 3 options: Resign themselves to live their lives as best they can, not worrying about descendants; Mingle with the natives to prolong the inevitable; Work to restore transport to their home-world.
Setting aside PC motivations, how many NPC's are there? This corrupt government has how many people to work with? If there are over a thousand then inbreeding shouldn't really be an issue. If there are too few then the more pressing concern is how they would control the local populace. I get that their technology would help but if there are only a couple hundred or less then the "primitives" could easily overthrow them. Another thing to consider is that the fewer people there are, the more likely it is that the chain of command would be challenged. Most people would never want to be responsible for hundreds of people, and all the decisions that would entail, opting instead to allow the politician to take the reins. With less than a hundred, it's more likely that the survivors would want to make decisions democratically or compartmentalize into cliques.
Not... exactly what I asked for, but I'll answer the questions.
As stated, the planet was created by the same over-deity as their homeworld. There are primitive humans, orcs, elves, etc., that they could interbreed with, as well as savage species that had been wiped out on their home planet such as goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, giants, etc. Think of the new planet as having most or all of the races and monsters in the beastiary, and the home planet having only core races and anything with a relation to the core races (so orcs and drow exist, but kobolds and goblins do not) with most monsters over a relatively low power wiped out - even dragons - unless they come from a different plane, and those ones in low numbers.
The population of the settlement will be at least a few thousand - probably large town size - when the gate is closed. There will be no inbreeding issues and the chain of command is kept in place.
Edit: This may sound rude, but it's unintentional. Could the next person to reply please stay on the primary issue? I may not have included all the information as I may have missed something or deemed it irrelevant, but I'm aware of the issues surrounding such a scenario and I've thought of how to mitigate or remove them. I'm only here to figure out what the natural population growth of the town would be and what kind of timeframe you're looking at for integrating members of a stone age society into a colonial age one. Assume that the magic of the druids, rangers, and other healing classes is enough to keep the populace to a near modern standard of health, but there's no birth control. Possibly looking at greater than post-WWII population growth rates, but I'm not an expert at how to estimate this and would appreciate input.
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Yehudi Roman wrote: With connection to the homeworld cut off, there is no easy way to increase the population except through slaves (which are not integrated with the rest of society, which grew up in a world without slavery except in a handful of nations that were in the process of giving it up). While the players will have to make choices as they discover what is happening, even if they decide to overthrow the government and manage the colony themselves and set up relations with the primitive peoples, they can't rapidly gain population from them. It's the stone age versus technological magic giving a near modern world and a transition like that would be far too confusing to happen rapidly. Population growth is tied directly to Quality of Life, specifically to General Health, ESPECIALLY pediatric care and nutrient-rich food.
In medieval societies, where there is no knowledge of real medicine and infant care, the infant mortality rate can be extremely high - up to or over 50%. The mortality rate for women can also be extremely high, due to complications of childbirth.
However, under modern medicine, where mortality rates for both women and for children is near-zero, the population can explode.
At the same time, you need good, preserved, nutritious and fresh food. It's no exaggeration that the advent of both pasteurization and refrigeration helped cause the massive population boom seen in the last 150 years.
Such nutrients have not only helped humans grow larger (much closer to our genetic predisposition than in the past), but also healthier. Obesity and other problems caused by heavily processed foods notwithstanding, when a society is rife with fresh fruits, vegetables, grains, and meats, its population booms and remains extremely healthy.
Under such a society, the population tends to double once every Generation (20-25 years), due to the high likelihood that 2 given adults will have 3-4 children survive adulthood.
Economic sustainability is also key to population growth, and an extremely-strong Middle Class is inseparable from a population boom. People who have moderate economic means are more likely to have children than those who have poor means, and when a society is capable of vertical growth economically (meaning you fairly-easily die wealthier than when you were born), people have more children because their is less concern.
Another aspect of the economic variable is that education need be inexpensive and widely available. Education is invariably tied to economic growth and success for individuals, and the availability of the option of higher education helps create both a democratic and more even-keeled society, and provides for greater growth economically for lower-income households. In summation: inexpensive or free college invariably is tied to a healthy economy and to population growth.
Education need not be the only end-result however, as strict regulatory laws heavily favoring industry over financing, and laws & groups making sure that workers are properly compensated & protected create an environment where "blue-collar" work is both profitable and desirable to individuals whom either cannot or choose not to enter college.
In short, regardless of what job you have, as long as everyone is properly-compensated for and not overworked, they are generally happy and have time to socialize and eventually reproduce.
Basically, taking a look at places like the Netherlands, Germany, and Japan to get an idea as to how populations can boom in short periods of time - Japan is also an example of how economic means affect population, as the stagnant economy of the last 30-odd years has created an environment of uncertainty and thus people have chosen to generally have only 1 child; so while the mortality rate in Japan is extremely low, the fact that 2 people have only 1 child leads to a population decline every generation.
And before you even consider it, factors such as asexuality and homosexuality have absolutely NO effect on population growth. Between the options of surrogates, adoption, and the relatively-low amounts of people NOT reproducing anyway for whatever reason, the sum total effect is that population growth is "slowed" by less than a percent of a percent of a percent, if even THAT much.
---
There is, as there often are in matters of biology, an "evil twin" to the "everyone is happy and healthy" approach. As was said, the most-key component to population growth is Mortality Rates.
Mortality Rates, however, do not have to be nearly-0%. In fact, there is plenty of evidence to show that as long as Childhood Mortality Rates are as high as 25% there is still room for population explosions.
The key there is that, often, societies in which a CMR as high as 25% "make up" for the loss by simply having more and more children. If one-in-four children die, and the number needed to double a population every 20 years is 1.5:1 (children to parents), then families with 6 or more children will have a statistically high-chance of at least 3-4 children surviving to adulthood and reproducing 6+ times themselves.
These societies are often assisted by a fairly-acceptable medical environment, just enough food for such children to grow into maturity and reproduce, and a general lack of widely-available birth control, thus meaning that there is a much-higher risk of pregnancy than in other societies.
These societies tend to be less industrialized and more agricultural, although some industry can exist as well.
India, Russia, and China are examples of this model.
Yehudi Roman wrote: I and the players will have to keep track of population to determine how large the settlement can get. I need an idea of what natural growth would be and an idea of how long it would take before nearby primitives could start integrating into a more advanced society. Obviously if the players decide to go evil (unlikely), they could just help the corrupt leadership and integrate slaves into society (or take over and do it themselves), removing population issues (although creating the possibility of slave revolts). While I'm sure you're going for a "Prime Directive" approach here, this is just... kinda REALLY offensive, and makes no damn sense at all.
The adaptability of intelligent beings is amazing - it can take less than a generation for people to go from "stone age", as you said, to a modern civilization.
And while slaves are almost always kept under-educated, they still, without question, pick up aspects of the slave-holders' culture and understanding, simply by osmosis.
You're also seriously discrediting the fact that any intelligent species on the level of humans would develop a wide range of societies whose development is based entirely on their environment.
In areas rich in natural resources, especially water, crops, and animals, civilizations will thrive, and it won't take very long for large nation-states to come into being.
More remote and unwieldy landscapes, such as thick jungles or dry deserts, will result in generally nomadic and/or tribal societies.
To wit, Native Americans had populations that dwarfed Europe at the time of the Vikings' expeditions to Vinland (Canada), and a complex trade network that rivaled the Silk Road in its prime. However, once the Conquistadores came to the Americas, that trade network ended up being the death knell for most Native American cultures, as the diseases the Conquistadores brought from Europe (which Native Americans NEVER had to deal with, and had NO immunities to) ran like wildfire over the continents, sparing only a small fraction of the populations of each nation.
Unless a species inhabits a world where there is currently nearly no chance of a stationary, large society from developing, such as the conditions during the last major Ice Age when Neanderthals disappeared and Homo Sapiens were left by ourselves on the planet, you're going to have a very-complex society in the slaves - hell, even WITHOUT a large-scale society, expect them to be no-less complex than anything else.
Yehudi Roman wrote: The population of the settlement will be at least a few thousand - probably large town size - when the gate is closed. There will be no inbreeding issues and the chain of command is kept in place. Well, that's just adorable.
So, 2001-5000 individuals? And that's the MVP (Minimum Viable Population)?
That's fairly small, and is actually on the verge of potential collapse, depending on a number of factors.
If the name of the game is "survive" with the very-real threat of the entire population being wiped out, then, yes, that would be an okay number, since the colony is just big enough that it might survive but also far too large to stop any potential uprisings.
On the advanced old planet a "normal" family would probably get 1-3 kids with high survival rate.
Among primitives expect 10-15 kids per family with a high death rate.
The "cure" is what we see in many poor countries today... Implementing hygiene and Medicare to help many kids survive, but taking a couple of generations to reduce the number of kids per family.
So:
At first population increase will be close to 0%
Once hygiene is made normal among the primitives expect exponential growth of 200-400% per generation
Questions:
How many years do you expect the campaign to use.?.. If only a few years, nothing will happen... Severel centuries, much can happen
Will it be player goal to increase population or is it more sandbox?
chbgraphicarts wrote: While I'm sure you're going for a "Prime Directive" approach here, this is just... kinda REALLY offensive, and makes no damn sense at all.
The adaptability of intelligent beings is amazing - it can take less than a generation for people to go from "stone age", as you said, to a modern civilization.
And while slaves are almost always kept under-educated, they still, without question, pick up aspects of the slave-holders' culture and understanding, simply by osmosis.
You read into it far more than was said. What is it with people doing that? This is why I'm a misanthropist.
The MAXIMUM that I implied is that it wouldn't happen immediately or in only one or two years. I figured a generation would be about right unless there was someone actively attempting to educate and people open to education, though those numbers would be small and even this would still not necessarily be accurate. We see this with the Ethiopian population in Israel, for instance, which started moving to a modern nation in 1979. It has been 36 years, more than a generation, and only now is the Ethiopian population integrating with the Ashkenazi, Sephardi and Mizrahi population. Specifically due to cultural differences, full integration isn't a simple process and a generation is a long time.
This was not on topic.
Quote: You're also seriously discrediting the fact that any intelligent species on the level of humans would develop a wide range of societies whose development is based entirely on their environment.
In areas rich in natural resources, especially water, crops, and animals, civilizations will thrive, and it won't take very long for large nation-states to come into being.
More remote and unwieldy landscapes, such as thick jungles or dry deserts, will result in generally nomadic and/or tribal societies.
To wit, Native Americans had populations that dwarfed Europe at the time of the Vikings' expeditions to Vinland (Canada), and a complex trade network that rivaled the Silk Road in its prime. However, once the Conquistadores came to the Americas, that trade network ended up being the death knell for most Native American cultures, as the diseases the Conquistadores brought from Europe (which Native Americans NEVER had to deal with, and had NO immunities to) ran like wildfire over the continents, sparing only a small fraction of the populations of each nation.
I am aware of all of this. But we're looking at a far more savage land than Earth, one with dragons, giants, possibly dinosaurs, magical creatures and the like. Populations are smaller due to greater hazards and lack of resources. Maybe ice age era human populations, though a little more settled due to availability of food. Despite this, I have already been thinking about small nations forming further away from the colony in safer areas with fewer dangers.
This was yet again not on topic.
Quote: Well, that's just adorable.
So, 2001-5000 individuals? And that's the MVP (Minimum Viable Population)?
That's fairly small, and is actually on the verge of potential collapse, depending on a number of factors.
If the name of the game is "survive" with the very-real threat of the entire population being wiped out, then, yes, that would be an okay number, since the colony is just big enough that it might survive but also far too large to stop any potential uprisings.
At this point I'm going to assume that you're reading comprehension skills are poor as you've strayed far off topic three times in a condescending way and you've managed to ignore the parts where I explained that there is public education and magic users which effectively replace modern doctors.
And let's also consider the Przewalski's horse, an endangered species descended from only 12 individuals. We aren't going to have genetic testing in this world, but we don't need it. An eruption in what is today Sumatra brought the human population to only around 2000 people, 70,000 years ago. Last I checked, we didn't have a lot in the way of health care back then and now there are 7 billion of us. Quite obviously, a fantasy setting of between 2000-5000 individuals with near modern healthcare via magic is going to be just fine, especially if a generation later alliances with the primitive tribes leads to integration. I could also considering things like dwarvish technological curiosity allowing them to integrate faster than, say, elves.
I thank you for the useful information that you provided. I now simply need to figure out what doubling over an average 22.5 year period works out to in percentage growth per month. I do not, however, thank you for your rants on things irrelevant to the topic, deliberately ignoring information provided on the technology level of the society and your condescension. It made me imagine slapping you.
I'm done with this thread and will not return.
Yehudi Roman wrote: An advanced planet with magic allowing for a near modern world has pretty much given up war, has wiped out or civilized most of the savage species and has little in the way of land left for expansion. There is talk of world government. There are hospitals, public schools, a mix of flourishing democracies and monarchies and early firearms are the main tool of the military (Commonplace Guns).
...
This advanced world still has a thirst for exploration and adventure, and powerful mages scryed across the galaxy and found a habitable planet, seemingly devoid of intelligent life,
...
The world's governments send over soldiers, druids and rangers to tame a small area of land (no clerics, paladins or oracles; their power comes from deities, their deities don't have power on this planet and this planet has not had any deities seeded, yet). Later comes the labourers, tradesmen and leaders to start building the colony.
...
With connection to the homeworld cut off, there is no easy way to increase the population except through slaves
Okay, so... not that a ton of fantasy worlds DO make sense, but this really doesn't make a ton of sense when you think about it.
You have a world wherein magic serves as a stand-in for advanced technology.
Said magic has led to worldwide highly-advanced societies where the quality of life is so generally high that apparently the middle-class must be the overwhelming population, as evidenced by the "given up war" thing due to most people being content.
Fair enough, that makes sense, and is what would actually logically come about in a world where everyone basic needs are attended to.
This world has magic so powerful as to be able to create a large, stable Gate from one planet to another.
And yet you have "laborers". Better than that, you have "slaves".
THAT is where the line of "... huh?" comes in.
Your society at first glance looks basically like the Federation, or the very beginnings thereof.
As I said, in order for such a world to exist, basically everyone would have to be living at a Middle-Class level of comfort, meaning all their basic needs are met and then-some, and most people are very content: they have houses, clothing, food, medical care, education, personal transportation, etc, all available to them through extremely cheap/free means.
This world is theoretically possible, and, in fact, may actually be where our own is headed. With the advent of "creation" technologies like advanced 3D printing, whatever physical needs you could have - be it something simple like utensils or clothing, advanced, intricate pieces of equipment like televisions and computers, or even organic materials like food or transplanted organs - could be available at literally the push of a button; at that point, all that is "required" is raw materials, which need to be obtained for next-to-nothing or completely for free, and things like maintaining sewer systems, assembly of large structures like houses, etc., would have to be equally as cheap or free.
And therein lies catch: even with advanced creation-technology like highly advanced 3D printers or even Replicators which can create our physical needs, at SOME point in the equation, you have to get extremely-cheap labor - i.e., "slaves".
Now, we're an advanced society, and we know that enslaving other sentient beings is wrong - yet, the requirement for "free" labor is still there in order for an advanced society to flourish. This is something that has, sadly, always been true, and is a major economic issue facing modern societies today.
However, we've basically figured out the solution to that problem: Robots.
Assuming advances continue at the pace they're going, we should have human-level-intelligent general-purpose androids by the end of the century - something capable of solving problems just like a human, but without emotions or a "soul", which can perform all the dangerous and undesirable work that humans don't want to/shouldn't do; this would allow us to recreate the "slave vs citizen" models that have worked extremely well for the "citizens" in societies passed, without the dilemma of using humans as objects or beasts of burden.
The "magic-world" solution is, of course, "Constructs."
But, somehow, Constructs don't seem to enter into your world, even though the technology/magic needed to create constructs logically is far-less-advanced than the technology needed to warp spacetime to such a degree that you create a stargate large enough to transport sizable populations in a single go. Instead, you have "slaves" and "laborers".
What I'm saying is, the idea of needing laborers at all doesn't make a lot of sense.
Constructs, be they Iron Golems or what-have-you, would seem to be the MUCH more likely candidates for performing hard labor, especially if you are terraforming or even simply building a colony.
While their initial costs are fairly high, in the long run, they are much more inexpensive than any living creature would be, as they work without tire, require minimal maintenance, need no compensation for their efforts, need no health or Worker's Comp insurance, etc. In other words, the cost of an Automaton, in the long run, is piddling compared to the cost of any individual, even an unskilled worker.
The idea that a society is capable of performing such acts as remotely searching for and discovering extraterrestrial, inhabitable worlds and THEN actually TRAVELLING there, but is not capable of creating large numbers of automatons in order to supply "undesirable" manual labor jobs, seems a bit off-kilter, especially since the world which created them has advanced to such a degree socially that War is considered a thing of the past.
Perhaps slavery becomes a sadly-necessary evil in the colony AFTER the Gate crashes, IF most of the automatons are ruined in the process, so that they colonists themselves are left in a world where they have no access to advanced technologies and thus must themselves revert back to manual labor in order to survive, but I have a hard time believing that such an advanced society would rightly have manual labor initially, let alone slaves.
Or ... Sometimes do things because they do them not because they are actually the most effective or efficient means of doing so. The real world is full of examples of societies employing suboptimal solutions because that's just how it's done, or comfort level.
In human prehistory there was a population bottleneck at around 10,000 (I can't remember exactly how long ago offhand) which appears to have been when Mitochondrial Eve was around. So it is possible for a human population to survive without significant/damaging inbreeding from a fairly low population.
Chbgraphicarts makes a number of very good points - maintaining a healthy, well-nourished population should be a priority if population growth is your aim. A population boom greater than the post-WW2 one may be unrealistic - The US had one year of 5.72% growth in 1946 before settling to more modest percentages, more than twice the 2.2% peak worldwide figure. In a worldwide context 2.5% population growth annually seems to be "high", and gives you a starting point for a growth-centred population.
And don't discount integrating "stone age" people into your society. People are quick to learn, and with an integration & education programme for incomers you can gain useful skilled and semi-skilled workers over a couple of years. There is currently a small baby boom in the Western world, but the largest source of population increase still seems to be immigration.
Corvino wrote: In human prehistory there was a population bottleneck at around 10,000 (I can't remember exactly how long ago offhand) which appears to have been when Mitochondrial Eve was around. So it is possible for a human population to survive without significant/damaging inbreeding from a fairly low population. Right, but 2000-5000 doesn't seem to be that magic number.
Ashkenazi Jews, for instance, are apparently descended from a little over 2000 ancestors. This population suffers a number of notable, very tragic, genetic disorders not seen in Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews, due in large part to Ashkenazi populations being segregated both from within and from without the communities in Eastern Europe, thus leading to many instances of intermarrying among succeeding generations.
Amish communities are also in fear of suffering a similar fate, as they're extremely small, as well, and tend to intermarry. The larger Mennonite society, however, doesn't have this problem, as they're much-more open to the outside world and much-more likely to marry someone outside of the immediate community/faith.
In humans, the number of individuals needed to create sustainable genetic diversity in a given geographic area seems to be somewhere between 8000 and 10,000, so there is a very real possibility that humans dodged a howitzer-shell-sized bullet when we suffered a mass extinction during the bottlenecking you described - our ancestors easily could have fallen into a point-of-no-return and not had enough genetic diversity to survive.
Cuuniyevo wrote: Okay, assuming it's possible to reproduce with the alien species, what then? If they don't have enough people to avoid the genetic deterioration from excessive inbreeding on their own, mixing with the other race won't help either. Eventually, their bloodline will be completely diluted by the influence of the alien DNA. As I see it, the players have 3 options: Resign themselves to live their lives as best they can, not worrying about descendants; Mingle with the natives to prolong the inevitable; Work to restore transport to their home-world. You make that out like it is necessarily a bad thing (remember the term 'miscegenation'). If you have a set of similar enough species, and there are not any immediate societal adn cultural problems of mixing their traits...then why be bothered?
Of course, this is a fantasy setting, so in this case, the races (which rightly deserve the term 'species') might actually be different enough to cause problems.
I can see elves having a problem with humans. This is mostly because of difference in life span, and the children will tend a bit more toward's the human half's life span.
And I can certainly see problems with goblins...cause....yeah. I assume that is the result of some heavy mutation from their origin in the underdark adn their worship of a goddess of deformity (just using Golarion's setting for this, since it is a familiar example of 'mutant' here). While individually, they can be incorperated into a settlement....you might want to avoid having large swaths of the population getting their...problems.
But if the humans willingly look to a race of halflings, catfolk, or gillmen...who are we to judge? Unless the kids end up like clone Ripley..... yeah, limit it to just a few starcrossed lovers until you have a full understanding of how the crossbreeding fares out.
Now, onto the actual setting:
What do the ecoterrorists want? They can't just be a simple ecological group with with an extremist bent..cause demon lords seem like a much, much larger ecological problem. Either they do not know about the demon lord (highly possible, easier to relate to them and turn them to your side in that case), or they are not an ecological group as we know them. A good example would be werewolves (who have their own demon lord in the golarion setting), who are men of the wild that often spurn the gifts of civilization in favor for slaughter and bloodlust.
Heck, maybe they are survivors of the so called 'savage races' who are rightly pissed about you blasting their civilization out of the water. Maybe they only turned to the demon lord because their only other option was to be kept as a servitor race. The idea of human imperialism is something that you cannot entirely avoid, particularly with your corrupt politician who may be more than happy to try enslaving a race or two.
@Yehudi Roman
Thank you for the additional information. I meant no offense and was just looking for more details before addressing the core issue, because I thought those details were important. How large the original population is and what races are involved seems like it would have a huge impact on the answers to your question. You mentioned animal and plant life being virtually identical but also said there were magical and/or monstrous species that were not present on the homeworld. In Pathfinder, Dwarfs cannot produce offspring with Elves, for instance. You could certainly house-rule it, but the question of race is moot now that you claim to have exited the thread. One thing I will note is that misanthropy is not considered a constructive quality to have. Being jaded or cynical may be fine, but full-blown misanthropy and discussion of slapping people is undesirable. Please do try to be courteous, even if you aren't receiving the answers you were hoping for in the format you wanted.
@lemeres
At the time I wrote that, I did not know what races were involved and did not know what the population was. Magical and monstrous species were alluded to and might present difficulties from a societal standpoint. Now that it's been clarified that all of the core races are present in both the colony and the native population, the question of inbreeding almost entirely goes out the window. If there was a more reduced population, Dwarfs would still have their particular issues, as would Gnomes and Halflings, but Humans, Elves and Orcs are known to be compatible.
In regards to the original question, now that I know the population and racial make-up, I would recommend having the colony's population increase at a rate of no less than 3% (24 years to double population) and no more than 8% (9 years to double population) per year. Here on Earth the rate would be lower but with healing magic and expressed encouragement to procreate, a lot of kids could be cranked out per year. With 4000 survivors (half male, half female), it is not unreasonable to imagine that 120-320 children could be born within the first year. Obviously the full race-appropriate length of time would have to pass before the kids would be useful, during which time they would be a drain on resources for feeding and training them, meaning that a more modest growth rate may actually be desirable.
My curiosity got the better of me and I peaked back in. I wasn't going to reply but some people are genuinely curious about the setting and I'd be happy to answer questions about how I'm making it a realistic/feasible setting. I will make zero replies to anything chbgraphicarts has said or says in the future. I'd block him if I knew how or if there was a way, as he has been narcissistically condescending and I see nothing valuable about any interaction with him in any way, shape or form. If you think his points are valid, please ask them yourself.
My original intent was not to provide information so someone else could play and I left a LOT of detail out and there are some details I'm still forming myself; either way, everything is being filled in on this end to make the setting viable and "realistic" (in-so-far as a fantasy setting can be).
Bacon666 wrote: How many years do you expect the campaign to use.?.. If only a few years, nothing will happen... Severel centuries, much can happen
Will it be player goal to increase population or is it more sandbox?
I'm still working out how fast the campaign will go, but slower than an "adventure every other week" campaign. All the characters will have to have jobs or run businesses once wealthy enough and will at first be primarily called upon to deal with some minor issues of exploration and dealing with magical creatures that most people in society, including the soldiers, consider little more than legend.
If the players do things right, they could end up in charge of the settlement. Or they could be simple advisors. It depends on how they want to play. It's a mix of sandbox and goal oriented, though they can ignore the goals if they want. Either way, time marches on and if they ignore too much, the characters will die.
Corvino wrote: And don't discount integrating "stone age" people into your society. People are quick to learn, and with an integration & education programme for incomers you can gain useful skilled and semi-skilled workers over a couple of years. There is currently a small baby boom in the Western world, but the largest source of population increase still seems to be immigration. So far the first good point I've seen in regards to the setting. If the characters do this, I can modify time to integration accordingly and possibly see population limits dropping far quicker than I thought. That is, IF the characters do this. I'm going to write it down so that I remember and work out some mechanics, but the characters may not decide to run education programs, hampering their own progress.
lemeres wrote: What do the ecoterrorists want? They can't just be a simple ecological group with with an extremist bent..cause demon lords seem like a much, much larger ecological problem. Either they do not know about the demon lord (highly possible, easier to relate to them and turn them to your side in that case), or they are not an ecological group as we know them. A good example would be werewolves (who have their own demon lord in the golarion setting), who are men of the wild that often spurn the gifts of civilization in favor for slaughter and bloodlust. The demon lord pretended to be someone else and tricked them. His followers infiltrated the group as well and they were able to ensure that no one discovered that the magical item that was supposed to disable the machines would do something far worse once interacting with them. The goal of the group was to prevent the extinction of species on the other planet, stop a repeat of their own world, but the goal of the demon lord was to have patsies that wouldn't be seen with as much suspicion as his own followers. The group was small and not well funded. Further detail could include (it isn't exactly relevant to gameplay or realism) that this was their first real attack and they weren't even on the radar of any law enforcement.
lemeres wrote: The idea of human imperialism is something that you cannot entirely avoid, particularly with your corrupt politician who may be more than happy to try enslaving a race or two. Yup!
Cuuniyevo wrote: Thank you for the additional information. I meant no offense and was just looking for more details before addressing the core issue, because I thought those details were important. How large the original population is and what races are involved seems like it would have a huge impact on the answers to your question. You mentioned animal and plant life being virtually identical but also said there were magical and/or monstrous species that were not present on the homeworld. In Pathfinder, Dwarfs cannot produce offspring with Elves, for instance. No offense taken from you, I just really wanted to get answers for my question before having the conversation spiral out of control getting into setting details that weren't relevant to the questions. That's out of the way. If the characters play good alignment, overthrow the corrupt governor and make appropriate alliances with the stone age tribes in a relatively short period of time, inbreeding simply won't become a problem, there isn't enough time. This is ignoring the fact that the human race on Earth 70,000 years ago dropped to only 2000 individuals and we have plenty of genetic diversity today. If the characters ignore the plot hooks and hints, the Abyss will invade the colony world and wipe everyone out, anyway. Either way, there is no conceivable outcome where I or the players need to worry about inbreeding.
Cuuniyevo wrote: One thing I will note is that misanthropy is not considered a constructive quality to have. Being jaded or cynical may be fine, but full-blown misanthropy and discussion of slapping people is undesirable. My misanthropy goes into far more than just people like chbgraphicarts being beyond annoying, but I made the point in order to accentuate my displeasure at him deliberately straying off topic when asked not to and his accusational and condescending tone. As said, he's made it clear that interacting with him is as pointless as trying to get water by chewing on granite, and he is the only person on the thread that I've taken issue with.
Cuuniyevo wrote: In regards to the original question, now that I know the population and racial make-up, I would recommend having the colony's population increase at a rate of no less than 3% (24 years to double population) and no more than 8% (9 years to double population) per year. Here on Earth the rate would be lower but with healing magic and expressed encouragement to procreate, a lot of kids could be cranked out per year. With 4000 survivors (half male, half female), it is not unreasonable to imagine that 120-320 children could be born within the first year. Obviously the full race-appropriate length of time would have to pass before the kids would be useful, during which time they would be a drain on resources for feeding and training them, meaning that a more modest growth rate may actually be desirable. Good point about the faster birth rates. Health care is the most advanced part of the society as the homeworld saw it as the most important aspect of magic and focused on that in schooling. As stated, firearms are still pre-modern. Resources, however, are less of an issue. While constructs have no intelligence according to the rules and therefore would be ill-suited as replacement for robots, an animated saw used by a single worker will cut down a tree faster than two workers with a mundane one and animated plows just need direction to work and don't need beasts of burden to pull them. Still pre-modern, but getting closer to, say, the industrial revolution. There would be ample food stocks and resources with a much lower risk of famine.
The settlement is situated on a great plain against a lake around the size of Lake Superior. There are plenty of trees surrounding the lake, major fish stocks in the lake and fertile land for farming. I'm still working out how I'm going to deal with access to mining, but I've got a few ideas.
1. Minerals access at the bottom of the lake, magic providing the workers with the ability to breath and work under water.
2. Trade with an aquatic civilization. There would be no way to cover this up, but the populace could be convinced that the only intelligent life is aquatic life. Definitely would make a few hints to the players a little more obvious.
3. Aboleths. I'm thinking of having the aboleths just starting to take control of the land on a different continent and they noticed the portal opening. The corrupt governor is their puppet. They're providing metals to the settlement and the governor tells everyone that it is coming from a mine and forge that was built several weeks journey away.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Are you looking to win awards for scientific simulation?
If the answer is yes, you're playing the wrong game. I might suggest Traveller or GURPS, or reading tons of extremely boring antrhropology texts.
If on the other hand, we're talking about a Heroic Fantasy campaign, then the answer is the following.
Your population develops according to the needs of plot. They propsper, or fail as per the story background you want to set up. In a world of fantastic heroes, things can be done such as world being rebuilt from one family on a wooden Ark, with a whole bunch of paired animals.
If you're playing D+D, and Pathfinder, science is okay until your story needs tell it to go sit in a corner and mind it's manners.
LazarX wrote: Are you looking to win awards for scientific simulation?
If the answer is yes, you're playing the wrong game. I might suggest Traveller or GURPS, or reading tons of extremely boring antrhropology texts.
If on the other hand, we're talking about a Heroic Fantasy campaign, then the answer is the following.
Your population develops according to the needs of plot. They propsper, or fail as per the story background you want to set up. In a world of fantastic heroes, things can be done such as world being rebuilt from one family on a wooden Ark, with a whole bunch of paired animals.
If you're playing D+D, and Pathfinder, science is okay until your story needs tell it to go sit in a corner and mind it's manners.
Are you looking to win an award for trolling?
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Yehudi Roman wrote: LazarX wrote: Are you looking to win awards for scientific simulation?
If the answer is yes, you're playing the wrong game. I might suggest Traveller or GURPS, or reading tons of extremely boring antrhropology texts.
If on the other hand, we're talking about a Heroic Fantasy campaign, then the answer is the following.
Your population develops according to the needs of plot. They propsper, or fail as per the story background you want to set up. In a world of fantastic heroes, things can be done such as world being rebuilt from one family on a wooden Ark, with a whole bunch of paired animals.
If you're playing D+D, and Pathfinder, science is okay until your story needs tell it to go sit in a corner and mind it's manners.
Are you looking to win an award for trolling? If you call honest criticism of your presentation trolling, than so be it. Your entire focus has been on the parts that would send most people to sleep. There's a reason that Robert Forward's scifi ranks among the most boring in popular scifi. He puts in so much on how things are done, that he leaves very little for story. (which I guess is okay as his characters aren't usually very interesting or have much in depth)
You seem to forget that you're working in a fantasy genere and are looking for advice on how to write boring science fiction.
LazarX wrote: Yehudi Roman wrote: LazarX wrote: Are you looking to win awards for scientific simulation?
If the answer is yes, you're playing the wrong game. I might suggest Traveller or GURPS, or reading tons of extremely boring antrhropology texts.
If on the other hand, we're talking about a Heroic Fantasy campaign, then the answer is the following.
Your population develops according to the needs of plot. They propsper, or fail as per the story background you want to set up. In a world of fantastic heroes, things can be done such as world being rebuilt from one family on a wooden Ark, with a whole bunch of paired animals.
If you're playing D+D, and Pathfinder, science is okay until your story needs tell it to go sit in a corner and mind it's manners.
Are you looking to win an award for trolling? If you call honest criticism of your presentation trolling, than so be it. Your entire focus has been on the parts that would send most people to sleep. There's a reason that Robert Forward's scifi ranks among the most boring in popular scifi. He puts in so much on how things are done, that he leaves very little for story. (which I guess is okay as his characters aren't usually very interesting or have much in depth)
You seem to forget that you're working in a fantasy genere and are looking for advice on how to write boring science fiction. Trolling it is.
|
