Druid Wild Shape with Trample and Improved / Greater Overrun


Rules Questions


Good day,

I have a question that for the life of me I can't answer.

Imagine a 10th level druid wild shaping into a Arsinoitherium (Rhino with two horns).
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/megafauna/megafau na-arsinoitherium

This druid has Improved Overrun and Greater Overrun
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-overrun-combat---final
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-overrun-combat---final

The Arsinoblabla has Trample. Trample rules say this:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Trample-Ex-

Important is the bit that says the overrun roll is negated. But how then would enemies be tripped and provoke AOO's from the Overrun feat chain? Or does the Overrun feat chain not work with Trample, even though Trample uses the Overrun rules?


Trample doesn't use the Overrun Rules, it bypasses them. You can overrun OR trample, not both at once.


Greater Overrun specifically says you only get the Attack of Opportunity if your opponent falls prone, and falling prone only happens when your CMB is high enough. Since Trample doesn't use a CMB check, by RAW, you shouldn't normally get an attack of opportunity using Greater Overrun and the Trample Action.

Interestingly, this would also mean that Trampled victims are NOT knocked prone. Ask your GM if he thinks victims of Trample are knocked Prone. If he answers yes, then you do get your Attack of Opportunity via Greater Overrun is your Trample is successful.

A Trample is an Overrun.

Improved Overrun does stack with Trample in that opponents do not get an attack of opportunity against you, even at -4.

Also, you would benefit from feats like Charge Through and Wheeling Charge (if your rider has Wheeling Charge).


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Interestingly, this would also mean that Trampled victims are NOT knocked prone. Ask your GM if he thinks victims of Trample are knocked Prone. If he answers yes, then you do get your Attack of Opportunity via Greater Overrun is your Trample is successful.

It's not an opinion question. The GM is free to houserule, of course, but, by the rules Trampling does not knock anyone prone.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

A Trample is an Overrun.

Improved Overrun does stack with Trample in that opponents do not get an attack of opportunity against you, even at -4.

Also, you would benefit from feats like Charge Through and Wheeling Charge (if your rider has Wheeling Charge).

No, none of this is accurate. The Trample special ability is not an Overrun. It simple works "like an overrun" in that you move through people's spaces. Trample has its own special rules, and neither Overrun feat with do anything to help it (nor will mounted feats--this is for a wild shaped druid anyway, not a mounted character). It doesn't even take the same actions or work under the same conditions.

You can either use Greater Overrun or Trample.

If you use Greater Overrun, you do not provoke an AoO and the target cannot avoid you. You roll CMB and if you beat them by 5+, you knock them prone and get your AoO against them.

If you Trample, all of the normal rules apply. They can either attack you at -4 or make a Reflex save for half damage.

And there's the main difference: Greater Overrun makes your overrun attempts "safe" in that they can't respond in any way, but you might miss either the CMB check or the attack from them falling. Meanwhile, Trampling is dangerous because the can hit you, but you deal 100% guaranteed damage (unless they have evasion).


mplindustries wrote:
The Trample special ability is not an Overrun.

Yes, it is.

Universal Monster Rules wrote:
a creature with the trample ability can attempt to overrun

Universal Monster Rules

It does have its own special rules, but the rules clearly say it's an overrun.


Guess it's not an easy question. :/


Crusader wrote:
Guess it's not an easy question. :/

We agree on half of the question: there's no CMB roll, so their's no knocking prone or AoO on a trample.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I'd only recommend going this feat chain, if you know your GM and you can work out how the rules work.

I played a druid wildshaping into Arsino's from level 4 to 9. I don't think I ever had a GM rule how the Overrun feats worked the same way any other GM. I'm pretty sure every table was a variance.

I had Greater Overrun, Charge Through, Elephant Stomp, and a couple more.

Eventually, I just got so tired of no FAQ on Overrun and no two GM's ruling the same way.


Well you can have all the overrun feats - but the target can choose to avoid you negating all of them. Overrun is a standard action.

Trample uses a full round action and the target can't avoid you - but there isn't a roll and therefore the target can't be knocked prone. You automatically get an attack on the trample for each square you move through.

So the major differences:

Overrun:


  • uses a standard action
  • requires a CMB check - if this fails you stop in front of them
  • can be improved to not provoke
  • can be improved to make an AoO if your CMB beats the defender by 5 or more
  • can be avoided by any enemy

Trample:

  • uses a full round action
  • requires no CMB check - you always move through the enemy
  • gets one attack per creature moved though (no more than 1 attack per creature
  • does provoke or the defender gets a chance for 1/2 damage
  • can't be improved (as it doesn't make a CMB check there is nothing to improve
  • can not be avoided by an enemy unless they have evasion and take the save option

Charge Through would use the overrun rules above - you just get a free overrun check on one opponent during a charge - all the improvements and such should apply to that check (like improved trip would apply to a free trip attempt from a different ability).


James Risner wrote:

I'd only recommend going this feat chain, if you know your GM and you can work out how the rules work.

I played a druid wildshaping into Arsino's from level 4 to 9. I don't think I ever had a GM rule how the Overrun feats worked the same way any other GM. I'm pretty sure every table was a variance.

I had Greater Overrun, Charge Through, Elephant Stomp, and a couple more.

Eventually, I just got so tired of no FAQ on Overrun and no two GM's ruling the same way.

I was thinking Saurian Shaman and turning into a Triceratops, myself. When you're grown big, your Dex goes down, so the number of Attacks of Opportunity goes down, too. I was thinking Bull Rush Feats were more interesting than Overrun Feats, Merciless Rush and Squash Flat. I'd have Spiked Barding made for me to put on via a Wand of Swift Girding when I transformed. Maybe take Spiked Destroyer. Greater Bull Rush combined with Paired Opportunist acquired through a level in Cavalier seemed like a good idea, but big Wildshape builds sort of work against attack of opportunity builds.

Whether you develop Bull Rushing or Overrunning for your druid-rhinocerous-triceratops build, a really cool thing to do would be to coordinate with another party member, a cavalier or paladin or somebody, and you sort of serve as his mount and he as your animal companion. Who'd ride a warhorse into battle when they could ride a triceratops instead? The idea here is that you wouldn't be taking Wheeling Charge, your rider would. Greater Bull Rush can be made as part of the charge, and you are giving the AoO to your rider, double damage with a lance from your charging back.

You take Improved Natural Attack or maybe cast Strong Jaw on yourself to pump up your Gore attack. Maybe take Great Cleave and Quick Bull Rush, too. Maybe Awesome Blow.


Ckorik wrote:

Well you can have all the overrun feats - but the target can choose to avoid you negating all of them. Overrun is a standard action.

Trample uses a full round action and the target can't avoid you - but there isn't a roll and therefore the target can't be knocked prone. You automatically get an attack on the trample for each square you move through.

So the major differences:

Overrun:


  • uses a standard action
  • requires a CMB check - if this fails you stop in front of them
  • can be improved to not provoke
  • can be improved to make an AoO if your CMB beats the defender by 5 or more
  • can be avoided by any enemy

Trample:

  • uses a full round action
  • requires no CMB check - you always move through the enemy
  • gets one attack per creature moved though (no more than 1 attack per creature
  • does provoke or the defender gets a chance for 1/2 damage
  • can't be improved (as it doesn't make a CMB check there is nothing to improve
  • can not be avoided by an enemy unless they have evasion and take the save option

Charge Through would use the overrun rules above - you just get a free overrun check on one opponent during a charge - all the improvements and such should apply to that check (like improved trip would apply to a free trip attempt from a different ability).

That's pretty much the way I see it. I'd add that if you had Improved Overrun, you could avoid the attack of opportunity when you trample, since in the description of the Trample Ability they say you are overrunning.

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