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In one of the other recent threads, it was brought up that PFS does a poor job of supporting local game stores. According to multiple store owners I have heard from or talked to, PFS night tends to be one of the least profitable nights in the store.
These local game stores are a cornerstone of our hobby, and this doesn't seem right to me, so I thought I would try to get a discussion going on why, snd maybe ways to improve the problem.
So as I see it, the root issue is two-fold:
* Current PFS rules permit either a watermarked PDF printout of the specific item, or an entire physical boOk. If you use many books, PDFs become almost essential to be able to carry everything.
* PDFs are currently only available directly from Paizo - game stores have no option to sell them.
So it would seem there are two potential paths to fix this. One is to find a method to validate the purchase of a physical book, such that you can prove ownership and use a photocopy, bringing PDF and paper copies onto a level playing field - those of us who like paper books but have been getting PDFs due to carrying capacity (like myself) will have an option to get books, support the local store, but stay legal.
The other would be offer a mechanism for stores to sell PDFs. Scratch off gift cards, free PDF with book purchase, that type of thing. This unfortunately sounds unlikely, as Paizo management has in the past shied away from this kind of model as not fitting their business plan.
Any ideas or additional insights into the problem?
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Didn't want to bake this into the original question, but I do have one idea as far as the validation of physical books with minimal fuss that could be worked entirely within the structure of PFS. Perhaps we could have something like the inventory tracking sheet, but for IRL items? If each entry needed to be signed off by a trusted figure (such as a VO or the owner of a store), that would seem to provide as strong of validation as the PDFs.
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I think that the best way to make sure to support your FLGS is to make sure to buy a few things from them. Two of the stores we play PFS at here locally do not offer much of anything pathfinder related (making it harder to find things to want there, mostly just food), but my favorite store to go to has a whole case of miniatures, and I make sure to pick up whatever miniature that I need there, and over the years I have accumulated quite a collection. Now I make sure that whenever there is something coming out that I want (I'm looking at you gargantuan red dragon) I talk to the store owner before hand and see if he is going to get whatever it is in.
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In one of the other recent threads, it was brought up that PFS does a poor job of supporting local game stores. According to multiple store owners I have heard from or talked to, PFS night tends to be one of the least profitable nights in the store.
These local game stores are a cornerstone of our hobby, and this doesn't seem right to me, so I thought I would try to get a discussion going on why, snd maybe ways to improve the problem.
So as I see it, the root issue is two-fold:
* Current PFS rules permit either a watermarked PDF printout of the specific item, or an entire physical boOk. If you use many books, PDFs become almost essential to be able to carry everything.
* PDFs are currently only available directly from Paizo - game stores have no option to sell them.So it would seem there are two potential paths to fix this. One is to find a method to validate the purchase of a physical book, such that you can prove ownership and use a photocopy, bringing PDF and paper copies onto a level playing field - those of us who like paper books but have been getting PDFs due to carrying capacity (like myself) will have an option to get books, support the local store, but stay legal.
The other would be offer a mechanism for stores to sell PDFs. Scratch off gift cards, free PDF with book purchase, that type of thing. This unfortunately sounds unlikely, as Paizo management has in the past shied away from this kind of model as not fitting their business plan.
Any ideas or additional insights into the problem?
I've got to be honest here, this sounds less like a way to give back to the FLGS and more of a way to get out of having to bring books along.
Trying to sell PDF's in a brick and mortar seems destined to fail, it seems like a logistical nightmare to put it mildly. I second what ARGH! had to say about the matter. Additionally, while a lot of people don't necessarily spend a lot of money on Pathfinder at the FLGS, PFS also gets people in store and spending money on other things. So, PFS can positively affect sales, without sales having to come from Pathfinder products.
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I've got to be honest here, this sounds less like a way to give back to the FLGS and more of a way to get out of having to bring books along.
Trying to sell PDF's in a brick and mortar seems destined to fail, it seems like a logistical nightmare to put it mildly. I second what ARGH! had to say about the matter. Additionally, while a lot of people don't necessarily spend a lot of money on Pathfinder at the FLGS, PFS also gets people in store and...
I buy PDFs, so I already got out of bringing the books along - it's really the only practical way to do it at present, despite liking physical books. It was more me trying to figure out a possible way to do it that would only involve PFS campaign staff and not some broader change from Paizo, since even if they were willing it would be slow in coming, and I don't think they're willing to help out here.
Note that I'm not just speculating about the impact on stores - this is based on actual numbers from store owners (check out the Noise thread for a post from one such store owner). Not even limiting it to Pathfinder products, even after you count room rental (we pay $2/seat for PFS games to rent private rooms in the back of the store), snacks, and other items purchased while in store, PFS night is the least profitable one in the week for the store.
Venture-Lieutenant, California—Los Angeles (South Bay)
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I make a point to buy a few things from local gaming stores but I think that more people need to do so. Also, I try to be supportive of other events. (For example, Lightspeed Hobbies in Portage IN will participate in Free Comic Book Day next Saturday, so I will be there.)
PFS NEEDS local venues. So, trying to offer some support to store owners is a good idea.
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Note that I'm not just speculating about the impact on stores - this is based on actual numbers from store owners (check out the Noise thread for a post from one such store owner). Not even limiting it to Pathfinder products, even after you count room rental (we pay $2/seat for PFS games to rent private rooms in the back of the store), snacks, and other items purchased while in store, PFS night is the least profitable one in the week for the store.I've got to be honest here, this sounds less like a way to give back to the FLGS and more of a way to get out of having to bring books along.
Trying to sell PDF's in a brick and mortar seems destined to fail, it seems like a logistical nightmare to put it mildly. I second what ARGH! had to say about the matter. Additionally, while a lot of people don't necessarily spend a lot of money on Pathfinder at the FLGS, PFS also gets people in store and...
I've seen the numbers in that thread, and you are making the assumption that Pathfinder players are only buying Pathfinder products. I also play Magic, and the bulk of my patronage for FLGS's in the area come from Magic purchases. That's just me, but I know others are similar, just substitute Magic for board games or comics or whatever their vice may be.
Saying that pathfinder books sales are X percent isn't really indicative of how much business PFS brings in.
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I buy PDFs, so I already got out of bringing the books along - it's really the only practical way to do it at present, despite liking physical books. It was more me trying to figure out a possible way to do it that would only involve PFS campaign staff and not some broader change from Paizo, since even if they were willing it would be slow in coming, and I don't think they're willing to help out here.
If people are having a problem with this, they could always try using fewer sources to build their characters. I've got a couple of characters that only use 2-3 hardcovers, and they do just fine.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I think that the best way to make sure to support your FLGS is to make sure to buy a few things from them. Two of the stores we play PFS at here locally do not offer much of anything pathfinder related (making it harder to find things to want there, mostly just food), but my favorite store to go to has a whole case of miniatures, and I make sure to pick up whatever miniature that I need there, and over the years I have accumulated quite a collection. Now I make sure that whenever there is something coming out that I want (I'm looking at you gargantuan red dragon) I talk to the store owner before hand and see if he is going to get whatever it is in.
I briefly courted the idea of selling individual miniatures at my shop, but I didn't want to get into something that wouldn't be profitable. And real estate in my display case is valuable property. Do you mind answering a couple of questions for me?
What does the FLGS charge for their minis, what's their pricing guideline? What are people (yourself included) willing to pay? How fast does product seem to rotate?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I want to buy my books in the stores we play in, but so far they've been doing a poor job of actually stocking much Pathfinder materials. I'm not sure how to proceed.
As a store owner, I know the feeling of not knowing what to keep in stock. There are lots of facets of gaming culture that I'm not a part of, but I still need to support them for my community. What helps me the most is when my customers tell me if they want an upcoming product and why. The why is really important because it lets me know that those kinds of products are important for the future.
For example, my Warhammer distributor constantly tries to get me to buy everything and being a very small FLGS, I can't afford to purchase everything they throw at me. But, after speaking with my customers, my Warhammer players only really want the newest codexes and datacards. This is because they want to see how the new miniatures work before investing in them. So, as a shop, I stay current on the new codexes and datacards, and only special order the new miniatures for my customers. My customers get what they want and I keep costs low.
I imagine that if the shop owner or whoever does purchasing at your FLGS doesn't know Pathfinder, speaking with them and telling them to buy X but not Y would be welcome advice.
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I think that the best way to make sure to support your FLGS is to make sure to buy a few things from them. Two of the stores we play PFS at here locally do not offer much of anything pathfinder related (making it harder to find things to want there, mostly just food), but my favorite store to go to has a whole case of miniatures, and I make sure to pick up whatever miniature that I need there, and over the years I have accumulated quite a collection. Now I make sure that whenever there is something coming out that I want (I'm looking at you gargantuan red dragon) I talk to the store owner before hand and see if he is going to get whatever it is in.I briefly courted the idea of selling individual miniatures at my shop, but I didn't want to get into something that wouldn't be profitable. And real estate in my display case is valuable property. Do you mind answering a couple of questions for me?
What does the FLGS charge for their minis, what's their pricing guideline? What are people (yourself included) willing to pay? How fast does product seem to rotate?
Hey Walter, have you been in Merlyn's? They used to sell miniature singles, but they stopped right around the time that the pathfinder miniatures came out.
Their D&D minis sold in different tiers. They had a $0.99 shelf, a $1.99 shelf, a $2.99 shelf, a $3.99 shelf, and another shelf that was priced higher and varied from mini to mini. I think they sold mostly used minis.
I picked up quite a few miniatures from them.
The return is probably nowhere near what you will get from having MTG in your display case, but minis also take up much less space. You can pack about 6 minis in the same area that you can fit an MTG card.
Your shop is much smaller than Merlyn's though—they have a LOT of real estate—which puts an even greater premium on that display space for you.
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I think that the best way to make sure to support your FLGS is to make sure to buy a few things from them. Two of the stores we play PFS at here locally do not offer much of anything pathfinder related (making it harder to find things to want there, mostly just food), but my favorite store to go to has a whole case of miniatures, and I make sure to pick up whatever miniature that I need there, and over the years I have accumulated quite a collection. Now I make sure that whenever there is something coming out that I want (I'm looking at you gargantuan red dragon) I talk to the store owner before hand and see if he is going to get whatever it is in.I briefly courted the idea of selling individual miniatures at my shop, but I didn't want to get into something that wouldn't be profitable. And real estate in my display case is valuable property. Do you mind answering a couple of questions for me?
What does the FLGS charge for their minis, what's their pricing guideline? What are people (yourself included) willing to pay? How fast does product seem to rotate?
The return is probably nowhere near what you will get from having MTG in your display case, but minis also take up much less space. You can pack about 6 minis in the same area that you can fit an MTG card.
You can get 6 minis in the same area, but cards are stackable (granted, any more than a few cards in a stack looks kind of sloppy), and when comparing price to area cards are still going to win out because the price ceiling on cards is a lot higher.
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You can get 6 minis in the same area, but cards are stackable (granted, any more than a few cards in a stack looks kind of sloppy), and when comparing price to area cards are still going to win out because the price ceiling on cards is a lot higher.
Thank you for basically agreeing with what I wrote. :)
To be honest: Main problem is imo the general availability in the net.
To say it clearly: If you can get it via amazon or similar sites, mostly for a way cheaper price than in the store, why should anyone buy said item in the store? That is one reason why here in Germany for example many such stores are closing. Even Magic the Gathering dedicated stores have to close, since there exist sites where you can buy the singles you want, and don't have to rely on luck to get what you want. Of course there are tournaments, but these things only give little money to the store. (Faced that directly. A good friend of mine had a store, but had to close it, since the incom wasn't that good anymore.
Which brings us to the next problem: If the stores are closing, where can you still get your stuff? Right, from the net. It's a damn circle.
To be honest, I expect not many stores open in a few years. At least here in Europe. Don't know how the mentality is in the US, but here Game stores (aside from GW, but thats a different story) have a hard time.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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I think that the best way to make sure to support your FLGS is to make sure to buy a few things from them. Two of the stores we play PFS at here locally do not offer much of anything pathfinder related (making it harder to find things to want there, mostly just food), but my favorite store to go to has a whole case of miniatures, and I make sure to pick up whatever miniature that I need there, and over the years I have accumulated quite a collection. Now I make sure that whenever there is something coming out that I want (I'm looking at you gargantuan red dragon) I talk to the store owner before hand and see if he is going to get whatever it is in.I briefly courted the idea of selling individual miniatures at my shop, but I didn't want to get into something that wouldn't be profitable. And real estate in my display case is valuable property. Do you mind answering a couple of questions for me?
What does the FLGS charge for their minis, what's their pricing guideline? What are people (yourself included) willing to pay? How fast does product seem to rotate?
Hey Walter, have you been in Merlyn's? They used to sell miniature singles, but they stopped right around the time that the pathfinder miniatures came out.
Their D&D minis sold in different tiers. They had a $0.99 shelf, a $1.99 shelf, a $2.99 shelf, a $3.99 shelf, and another shelf that was priced higher and varied from mini to mini. I think they sold mostly used minis.
I picked up quite a few miniatures from them.
The return is probably nowhere near what you will get from having MTG in your display case, but minis also take up much less space. You can pack about 6 minis in the same area that you can fit an MTG card.
Your shop is much smaller than Merlyn's though—they have a LOT of real estate—which puts an even greater premium on that display space for you.
'
My local store does this for Pathfinder pre-painted miniatures. The closed boxes just didnt sell, and people were always picky about what they were getting.So they just opened them all up and sold the minis for a set price. Small - Medium - Large. Small the cheapest, Large the most expensive. I really cant give you a price as I dont know from the top of my head.
Ever since they did that they sell them a whole lot more.
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I do try and support the FLGS, I bought the majority of my GMing stuff through them, bought the majority of my miniatures and painting supplies there, as well as some board games. The unfortunate part is he has a section dedicated to Pathfinder products (especially books) which I rarely buy. (I bought Dragon's Demand, a buff deck, a GM screen, and a player portfolio out of that section I guess). If hard back books included a PDF code in them I would probably buy hardbacks. I like them, it gives me something to flip through in my spare time, but honestly with all the different characters I generally bring with me, carrying them is something I'm not logistically prepared to do, so I have PDF copies of far more resources.
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I think the exclusivity of quests with a new product coming out is a good start. A retailer gets that PDF before anyone else does. I really hope the Unchained Quest makes it worthwhile.
On a similar note, it is also possible to buy gift cards or put a purchased product into another user's Paizo account. If my FLGS used their account to put a PDF product in my account, Paizo would be able to track it. My thoughts on making this information usable.
I purchase PDF through FLGS & pay a 'handling fee' to my FLGS.*
I, and a dozen friends, purchase PDFs through FLGS who earns bonus (discount on future order? limited edition product? exclusive merchandise? booth sponsorship at local con? presence at PaizoCon?).
There is a charge (however small) with each card transaction so my FLGS putting a single big montly payment vs. dozen small payments could make a difference in savings to Paizo (I have no idea what card transaction fees so 'savings' could be negligable). Also this could backfire on the FLGS if there is no cover fee.
*have you seen the self-service prices at Kinkos? Talk about markup! Even a small percentage of this would support to our hosts. :)
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Interesting info on the mini sales, guys (and the ones that PM'd me). I think I'll toss some extras I have in the case and see what happens with them.
Obviously, nothing will ever be as profitable as cardboard crack, but sales are sales.
I'd rather see a different tactic, to be honest. Just charge for the space.
I'd be willing to pay a few bucks a game, and if it keeps the location open, it's worth it.
In terms of things that sell, minis and dice are easiest, followed by limited amounts of office supplies like pencils, pens, sheet protectors, then snacks.
I'do be willing to pay a modest price for color copies of things, including table tents. Design some with the store logo, and your players will advertise for you when they play at conventions.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Note that I'm not just speculating about the impact on stores - this is based on actual numbers from store owners (check out the Noise thread for a post from one such store owner). Not even limiting it to Pathfinder products, even after you count room rental (we pay $2/seat for PFS games to rent private rooms in the back of the store), snacks, and other items purchased while in store, PFS night is the least profitable one in the week for the store.I've got to be honest here, this sounds less like a way to give back to the FLGS and more of a way to get out of having to bring books along.
Trying to sell PDF's in a brick and mortar seems destined to fail, it seems like a logistical nightmare to put it mildly. I second what ARGH! had to say about the matter. Additionally, while a lot of people don't necessarily spend a lot of money on Pathfinder at the FLGS, PFS also gets people in store and...
I've seen the numbers in that thread, and you are making the assumption that Pathfinder players are only buying Pathfinder products. I also play Magic, and the bulk of my patronage for FLGS's in the area come from Magic purchases. That's just me, but I know others are similar, just substitute Magic for board games or comics or whatever their vice may be.
Saying that pathfinder books sales are X percent isn't really indicative of how much business PFS brings in.
I haven't had a FLGS since I started PFS, but MTG related purchases (card sleeves, dice etc) were my preferred way to support my FLGS back then too.
Hell at some point he started stocking Inquest and Dragon magazine ...|
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I'd rather see a different tactic, to be honest. Just charge for the space.
I'd be willing to pay a few bucks a game, and if it keeps the location open, it's worth it.
In terms of things that sell, minis and dice are easiest, followed by limited amounts of office supplies like pencils, pens, sheet protectors, then snacks.
I'do be willing to pay a modest price for color copies of things, including table tents. Design some with the store logo, and your players will advertise for you when they play at conventions.
While I wouldn't have a problem with paying a modest amount to play, I think that a price that makes a store owner take notice of our direct profitability as a community would likely cause most players to balk.
As it stands, the primary money reason store owners let us use their open gaming areas is because we are free advertising. So I think that the best way to give back to our game stores that host us is to grow.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I think that the best way to make sure to support your FLGS is to make sure to buy a few things from them. Two of the stores we play PFS at here locally do not offer much of anything pathfinder related (making it harder to find things to want there, mostly just food), but my favorite store to go to has a whole case of miniatures, and I make sure to pick up whatever miniature that I need there, and over the years I have accumulated quite a collection. Now I make sure that whenever there is something coming out that I want (I'm looking at you gargantuan red dragon) I talk to the store owner before hand and see if he is going to get whatever it is in.I briefly courted the idea of selling individual miniatures at my shop, but I didn't want to get into something that wouldn't be profitable. And real estate in my display case is valuable property. Do you mind answering a couple of questions for me?
What does the FLGS charge for their minis, what's their pricing guideline? What are people (yourself included) willing to pay? How fast does product seem to rotate?
When I was looking for a local supplier of Pathfinder pawns in Germany, I found quite a lot of Ebay listings for individual pawns, that might be quite attractive for PFS players (the Ebay guys sell them for 1,50 € or something like that), since the product they come from is a bit expensive, if you "just" want something to represent your character.
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So do most of your FLGS offer snacks and drinks? The one's I've seen that do that seem to make a fairly swift turnover on them. Often I do have a hard time finding something I need at the FLGS, but a new one opened in the College Town I live in this month, the local LtVCs just had their first game day there (Silverhex Chronicles) 5 new players. There wasn't much inventory, but I did pick up a nice set of dice.
I know when I lived in Atlanta, my nearest monthly PFS game was in a restaurant with a liquor license, they had a large space and it seemed to fill some seats on a tuesday night, typical food costs were ~$15 plus drinks.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville
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We, here in Jax, bring it up like this:
-Yes, you can get PDFs for a lot less but does anyone remember, any of up to six different stores that are no longer in the area.
-we ask the owners/management to come over and introduce themselves, highlight that if they DO NOT have something they can order it in a few days.
-Thank the store we are at at every game day.
-I'm a subscriber for a couple things, so I order EVERYTHING else thru my local stores. If they don't have it I ask them to order it. With the exception of Con support almost everything we raffle off at game days is either bought locally or directly store credit
I was thinking along the lines of $2-5 a game. For four hours of entertainment, that's a deal.
And +1 to the idea of a photocopier/wireless printer. Invaluable if you want to change adventures on the fly, or print out a pre-gen for a new player.
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I was thinking along the lines of $2-5 a game. For four hours of entertainment, that's a deal.
That's how we do it at my FLGS. $2 buys a seat at one of tables. For that, the owner schedules the tables, arranges GMs, maintains a library of scenarios and some preprinted maps for the GMs to use, does the reporting, and we get private rooms in the back of the store. It's really an amazing bargain for what we get.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Here's an idea about PDFs.
Subscribers get PDFs on the nominal physical release date of a book, which is earlier than other people. They have to wait a couple of weeks. However, if you live in Europe, it can take several more weeks before physical copies make it across the pond. So the normal-release PDF is a faster way of getting the book. This kind of cuts the FLGS out of the loop on book-buying, because if you want the shiny new thing now, they can't help you.
If Paizo authorized stores to sell PDFs (through a variant of the gift system) as soon as the subscriber-PDFs became available, that might be interesting.
I'd be interested in early-access PDFs for a small surcharge.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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Pathfinder is always going to be less profitable then the card games. There is a reason we call Magic carboard crack. The whole idea behind it is that you have a whole new set coming out three times a year, and to stay on top you have to buy decks and boosters. It costs a lot of money to keep up, and of course, it feeds our geeky addiction to collecting.
With Pathfinder, you have hardcovers, APs, and splat books coming out regularly, but not everyone is going to buy everything. Even if someone keeps up with all the hardcovers (I do, I want my gaming shelve complete), that is just one transaction every couple of months.
Its just easier to reach a point where you have what you need, and only buying select new items.
What we roleplayers are very good in, is loyalty. I think we might see higher percentages if we take into account that if we like a store, we will come back and buy other things there too.
What also helps if we direct new players to the FLGS to buy their things there too.
Buying PFD's trough the store might help. I am a more of a physical book person. I like them on my shelve and I like to read them like that. If I want to look something up quick, I have the PRD.
I do have a module subscription, as I love GMing out of the physical book, but prep is so much nicer from a PFD. (open PFD on one screen, PRD/word document on the other). And that way I get the module and a PFD for not much more then I would buy it from the normal store.
I dont really have an idea to help the FLGS out. I think its inherent to the product that it will always have lower sales then other products.
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A significant part of the difference between Pathfinder sales and MtG sales is that MtG is, basically, a consumable, and, individually, appears less expensive.
Splat books are about $15-20 apiece, with the hardcovers being up to $50 or so.
MtG booster packs are about $4 apiece.
One splat book is good forever, or until a new edition comes out.
A booster pack is good, at best, for about 2 years, before WotC drops it from Standard.
Now, when you add it up, most avid MtGers buy a lot more booster packs for any release than even a $50 hardcover. But the apparent cost, because of the individual price, looks lower, so causes less buyer's remorse, or trepidations about buying it.
That, and you only buy the CRB once, you need to keep buying booster packs.
Our consumables, oddly enough, are food and drink, along with dice and minis. Maybe wet erase or dry erase markers. A flip-mat or two, but those, usually, last a long time before the basic ones need to be replaced.
Unfortunately, some of the semi-consumables are not sold by the store. They do sell the card sleeves and holders, but not the small size zip-lock bags you can get form a craft store, nor the non-meeple beads that some of the other card games use, that are not the flat-sided ones used for MtG.
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A significant part of the difference between Pathfinder sales and MtG sales is that MtG is, basically, a consumable, and, individually, appears less expensive.
Splat books are about $15-20 apiece, with the hardcovers being up to $50 or so.
MtG booster packs are about $4 apiece.One splat book is good forever, or until a new edition comes out.
A booster pack is good, at best, for about 2 years, before WotC drops it from Standard.Now, when you add it up, most avid MtGers buy a lot more booster packs for any release than even a $50 hardcover. But the apparent cost, because of the individual price, looks lower, so causes less buyer's remorse, or trepidations about buying it.
That, and you only buy the CRB once, you need to keep buying booster packs.
Our consumables, oddly enough, are food and drink, along with dice and minis. Maybe wet erase or dry erase markers. A flip-mat or two, but those, usually, last a long time before the basic ones need to be replaced.
Unfortunately, some of the semi-consumables are not sold by the store. They do sell the card sleeves and holders, but not the small size zip-lock bags you can get form a craft store, nor the non-meeple beads that some of the other card games use, that are not the flat-sided ones used for MtG.
I've got to ask, have you actually ever played Magic regularly, or are you just basing your assumptions on uneducated observations? The majority of your assumptions about the cost differences between the two hobbies are flawed at best. As a Magic player, I've noticed a definite sense of superiority from RPG players, It kept me out of the hobby for a long time, until a friend invited me into his home game.
As a Magic player, I prefer to support my local shop with card purchases (mostly singles now, but to go with your example I'll go with the reasoning back when I bought packs) because Magic cards actually have resale value. I can buy a four dollar pack of cards and open something that is worth more than the pack I purchased, sometimes many times more. When I buy a book, I understand that the value of that book is going to decrease after purchase for the vast majority* of the time, which I'm okay with, it's a part of the hobby. To sum it up, I can buy a pack of cards and find something worth another pack, but I can't buy a book and just find an extra book inside for free. I have less trepidation about buying Magic singles because I know that they are going to retain value.
In the end though, it doesn't matter how one decides to support their local store, as long as they are finding some way to support it.
*Holy crap, have you guys seen what some online retailers are trying to sell the Cheliax player companion for?
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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A significant part of the difference between Pathfinder sales and MtG sales is that MtG is, basically, a consumable, and, individually, appears less expensive.
Splat books are about $15-20 apiece, with the hardcovers being up to $50 or so.
MtG booster packs are about $4 apiece.One splat book is good forever, or until a new edition comes out.
A booster pack is good, at best, for about 2 years, before WotC drops it from Standard.Now, when you add it up, most avid MtGers buy a lot more booster packs for any release than even a $50 hardcover. But the apparent cost, because of the individual price, looks lower, so causes less buyer's remorse, or trepidations about buying it.
That, and you only buy the CRB once, you need to keep buying booster packs.
Our consumables, oddly enough, are food and drink, along with dice and minis. Maybe wet erase or dry erase markers. A flip-mat or two, but those, usually, last a long time before the basic ones need to be replaced.
Unfortunately, some of the semi-consumables are not sold by the store. They do sell the card sleeves and holders, but not the small size zip-lock bags you can get form a craft store, nor the non-meeple beads that some of the other card games use, that are not the flat-sided ones used for MtG.
I do agree with pretty much everything (and having a selection of wet and dry erase markers could actually be a pretty cool item for a FLGS. Having some a selection of flip maps and map packs at the store could help a lot, especially since many GMs don't buy them until they need them.
From my point of view, everything other than the books was a good potential to sell to PFS players (of course having the books helps quite a bit too).
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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I played magic for a while. But I quit because I could not keep up with the spending required. There are three new series released a year. You can buy a standard deck that works fine, but for that deck to be really good you need to buy boosters.
I just didnt have the money for it.
And yes, you can buy a booster and up with a far more valuable card. But if you actively play, the chances of you selling that card is slim.
The card is expensive because its rare and powerfull. The fact that its powerfull means you most likely want to keep it. Either to use it yourself, or perhaps trade it with someone that has a similar card that you can use better.
If I was to sell my old magic cards, I doubt I would get as much back as I invested in them. The only thing that the internet tells me is still worth something, are my Slivers. And those go from a couple of cents to 5$ for my rarest card.
Anyway. We all want to support out local stores. Its just that some products sell better then others, either by design or popularity.
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Any ideas or additional insights into the problem?
There have been quite a few discussions about this in the past, I know that Drogon has quite a bit of success using his methodology. You may want to start by going through his post history as a quick primer on some of the conversations that have already occurred on the topic.
Also, a big part of your challenge will be getting buy-in from the game store owners/ employees. I encourage the store I'm the liaison for to try to stock more "impulse" buy types of things (such as dice sets, PF mini's, character folio's, etc.), but it's often more difficult especially if things are only available through specific distributors (which was the case for the PF Battles figs for awhile, I believe).
-TimD
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Whenever I played at my FLGS, more often than not something was bought or ordered by myself or one of the players. An APG here, some board games there...also some players made it a point for them to only order through the FLGS and not Amazon or alike. It takes longer but costs exactly the same because by law books have to cost the same everywhere in Germany. Imports (like English Pathfinder) excluded of course.
It helps that the store is run by enthusiasts and the owner plays and GMs herself.
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@UndeadMitch: I have played MtG regularly, in the past. Dropped it, when money became an issue, then started back up for a short while when my roommate expressed an interest.
The odds of your holo/rare cards actually having value, in my past experience, is fairly low. The odds of you wanting to sell them, as mentioned by another poster, is even lower if you actively play.
My comparison seems to have not been clear enough.
I was comparing the cost of individual packs to individual books, and pointing out that buying a $4 pack is a lot less intimidating then buying a $50 book.
Now, I didn't feel I needed to point out that the dedicated Magic player is likely buying a case, rather than a single pack, at $90 or more a pop, but that the mental image behind it is still the $4 (or less with bulk "savings") per pack.
Buying single cards moves into an even different area, which lowers, other than those rare & expensive cards, the entry cost for MtG, whereas the entry fee, in people's eyes, for Pathfinder is the $50 Core Rulebook.
And then you get the issue of the apparent cost of "add-ons" like Hero Lab, which is $20 for a 2-license basic copy, but ramps up as you add access to the various additional Pathfinder books.
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As a Magic player, I've noticed a definite sense of superiority from RPG players, It kept me out of the hobby for a long time, until a friend invited me into his home game.
i think role players and card players are on that mutual level of "thinks they're not a geeky as" level of the chart...
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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As a Magic player, I've noticed a definite sense of superiority from RPG players, It kept me out of the hobby for a long time, until a friend invited me into his home game.i think role players and card players are on that mutual level of "thinks they're not a geeky as" level of the chart...
Yeah it is nice too look towards other people and think "at least I am not that nerdy", my only problem is that I am part of too many groups: I played WOW excessively, I play MTG, I watched the old Pokemon anime, I watched entirely to much MLP, I watch way to much anime in general, read comic books, novels, play MOBAS... and watch Dr. Who...
Really the only group of Nerds where I don't have anything to talk about are sport nerds, and even then talking about certain martial arts works.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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The attitude can be present in any aspect of gaming culture--RPG player and Magic alike. And I think it's more of a personal issue that people have than anything.
I've been to game days where the PFS players cloister themselves away and fail to encourage the rest of the patrons to participate.
I've been to game days where the PFS players rope idle patrons into games and turn them into lifetime fans.
The same is true of Magic players, board gamers, and other gamers. They can all that can just as easily invite people to participate as they can to turn them away. It all boils down to the type of environment you wish to cultivate. If you want one where there is consistent growth and new people participating, you have to be welcoming.
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@Kinevon: Fair enough, my experience with MtG has been wildly different than yours, but that doesn't mean your experiences/opinions are any less valid.
My experience has been that the more experienced/dedicated to Magic a player is, they buy randomly packaged products (packs, cases) less and less, which is apparently different from what you've seen, no big deal.
I've gotten to the point to where I am just playing commander, so I can certainly understand price concerns about the hobby. As far as the chances of opening good stuff goes and desire to sell goes I might be an outlier, I've been able to fund trips to Gencon off of singles sales, but given what Standard, Commander, and online retailers like StarCity (in my opinion) have done to the inflation of the prices of cards I think the odds of opening something good have gone steadily up, as well as the odds that old stuff that was previously cheap being expensive now.
@BNW: That is certainly true, can't argue with that. And to be fair, my experiences with that have happened mainly on days where space has become an issue (PFS game day and Magic prerelease happenng to fall on the same Saturday, so there wasn't really enough store to go around).
@Walter: Pretty much everything you said there is true. One of the nice things about having my foot in the door with both hobbies in my area is that it makes it easier to change the perspectives of paricipants in both groups about each other.
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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As a Magic player, I've noticed a definite sense of superiority from RPG players, It kept me out of the hobby for a long time, until a friend invited me into his home game.i think role players and card players are on that mutual level of "thinks they're not a geeky as" level of the chart...Yeah it is nice too look towards other people and think "at least I am not that nerdy", my only problem is that I am part of too many groups: I played WOW excessively, I play MTG, I watched the old Pokemon anime, I watched entirely to much MLP, I watch way to much anime in general, read comic books, novels, play MOBAS... and watch Dr. Who...
Really the only group of Nerds where I don't have anything to talk about are sport nerds, and even then talking about certain martial arts works.
Everyone else: "At least I'm not as nerdy as Sebastian Hirsch"
:D
HA I AM MORE NERDY I ALSO LARP
HA I AM MORE NERDY I ALSO LARPAs a Magic player, I've noticed a definite sense of superiority from RPG players, It kept me out of the hobby for a long time, until a friend invited me into his home game.i think role players and card players are on that mutual level of "thinks they're not a geeky as" level of the chart...Yeah it is nice too look towards other people and think "at least I am not that nerdy", my only problem is that I am part of too many groups: I played WOW excessively, I play MTG, I watched the old Pokemon anime, I watched entirely to much MLP, I watch way to much anime in general, read comic books, novels, play MOBAS... and watch Dr. Who...
Really the only group of Nerds where I don't have anything to talk about are sport nerds, and even then talking about certain martial arts works.
Everyone else: "At least I'm not as nerdy as Sebastian Hirsch"
:D
Let's see:
Watching MANY MANY Anime (Even very old one) check
Still playing MTG Check
Watching MLP Check
Beside PFS I also played 4 different RPGs Check
Being a Treckie: Check
Did play many Video Games on Tournament Level in the Past (For example Tekken, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter etc. ) Check
Looking at DVD Shelf: Let's see: Arnold Schwarzenegger, Bud Spencer, Sylvester Stallone...... Check
I also still play Battletech: Check
Looking at Book shelf: Forgotten realms, Warhammer 40K (Gaunts Ghosts) the entire Battletech series, Wing Commander, Warrior Cats, Harry Potter, Moby Dick, Shakespeare, Dracula, Sherlock Holmes Hmmmmmm Many classics more.... CHECK.
Hmm, Sorry, I think I beat you ;)
Only thing I avoid with a passion is everything, Marvel, DC related. These are definitely not my style of comics. ;)
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Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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HA I AM MORE NERDY I ALSO LARPAs a Magic player, I've noticed a definite sense of superiority from RPG players, It kept me out of the hobby for a long time, until a friend invited me into his home game.i think role players and card players are on that mutual level of "thinks they're not a geeky as" level of the chart...Yeah it is nice too look towards other people and think "at least I am not that nerdy", my only problem is that I am part of too many groups: I played WOW excessively, I play MTG, I watched the old Pokemon anime, I watched entirely to much MLP, I watch way to much anime in general, read comic books, novels, play MOBAS... and watch Dr. Who...
Really the only group of Nerds where I don't have anything to talk about are sport nerds, and even then talking about certain martial arts works.
Everyone else: "At least I'm not as nerdy as Sebastian Hirsch"
:DLet's see:
Watching MANY MANY Anime (Even very old one) check
Still playing MTG Check
Watching MLP Check
Beside PFS I also played 4 different RPGs Check
Being a Treckie: Check
Did play many Video Games on Tournament Level in the Past (For example Tekken, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter etc. ) Check
Looking at DVD Shelf: Let's see: Arnold Schwarzenegger, Bud Spencer, Sylvester Stallone...... Check
I also still play Battletech: Check
Looking at Book shelf: Forgotten realms, Warhammer 40K (Gaunts Ghosts) the entire Battletech series, Wing Commander, Warrior Cats, Harry Potter, Moby Dick, Shakespeare, Dracula, Sherlock Holmes Hmmmmmm Many classics more.... CHECK.Hmm, Sorry, I think I beat you ;)
Only thing I avoid with a passion is everything, Marvel, DC related. These are definitely not my style of comics. ;)
Aw, sorry honey, for giving you hope :P
Watch anime/read manga
Played magic.
Watching My little pony. Adventure time.
Played D&D 3.5, 4th and AD&D. Shadow run. Fate. GURPS. Rogue Trader. Vampire the Masquerade/World of Darkness.
Trekkie: yes. Voyager is my favorite as I used to watch that with my dad.
Video games? We have NES. SNES. N64. Game Cube. Wii. Wii U. PS, PS2, PS3, PS4. Xbox. Game boy colour, GB advance, DS, 3DS.
The DVD shelve is a mixture of nostalgia (the old D&D TVseries), things I can watch while sick (Resident Evil is hilarious with a fever), and the classics like The Dark Crysal, Never ending Story and Labyrinth.
We are currently having a 4 by 6 meter bookshelve built. Because books. I have read Gaunts Ghosts, Harry Potter, Hobbit, LoTR, I got tired of Drizzt as he's a big mary sue, Neal Septhenson. Neil Gaiman (I have American Gods signed).
I am really into Dr. Who, have the scredrivers, have 10th doctor cosplay, have a signed Dalek. Met David Tennant and Billy piper.
I LARP.
I have a Skaven Army that is over 300 figures. I have space wolves.
We have DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, Archonia, Image and Vertigo comics.
I have a portal gun, and much more collectible merchanidse.
A cupboard full of boardgames.
Dont get me started on my Lego.
I am probably forgetting some things, but its late.
HA I AM MORE NERDY I ALSO LARPAs a Magic player, I've noticed a definite sense of superiority from RPG players, It kept me out of the hobby for a long time, until a friend invited me into his home game.i think role players and card players are on that mutual level of "thinks they're not a geeky as" level of the chart...Yeah it is nice too look towards other people and think "at least I am not that nerdy", my only problem is that I am part of too many groups: I played WOW excessively, I play MTG, I watched the old Pokemon anime, I watched entirely to much MLP, I watch way to much anime in general, read comic books, novels, play MOBAS... and watch Dr. Who...
Really the only group of Nerds where I don't have anything to talk about are sport nerds, and even then talking about certain martial arts works.
Everyone else: "At least I'm not as nerdy as Sebastian Hirsch"
:DLet's see:
Watching MANY MANY Anime (Even very old one) check
Still playing MTG Check
Watching MLP Check
Beside PFS I also played 4 different RPGs Check
Being a Treckie: Check
Did play many Video Games on Tournament Level in the Past (For example Tekken, Soul Calibur, Street Fighter etc. ) Check
Looking at DVD Shelf: Let's see: Arnold Schwarzenegger, Bud Spencer, Sylvester Stallone...... Check
I also still play Battletech: Check
Looking at Book shelf: Forgotten realms, Warhammer 40K (Gaunts Ghosts) the entire Battletech series, Wing Commander, Warrior Cats, Harry Potter, Moby Dick, Shakespeare, Dracula, Sherlock Holmes Hmmmmmm Many classics more.... CHECK.Hmm, Sorry, I think I beat you ;)
Only thing I avoid with a passion is everything, Marvel, DC related. These are definitely not my style of comics. ;)
Aw, sorry honey, for giving you hope :P
Watch anime/read manga
Played magic.
Watching My little pony. Adventure time....
Lol. It seems we are the same mind, since I also forgot some things ;).
Wow, the old D&D Series. Now that I call Nostalgia. These were classics, along the old Thundercats and the like ;). I am sure somewhere on my roof, I can find my old Masters of the Universe, Mask and Transformers toys ;).
Oh yeah Lego...... I could fill my whole living room with my Space Models from Lego alone ;).