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Good day, PFS!
I ask you, what a Monkey (tumor) familiar for an Alchemist can and cannot do? In particular, can it:
-Throw splash weapons (acid flasks, alchemist's fire)?
-Spend one/two move actions in his turn retrieving one/two item/s stored in his master's inventory and giving them to him? In this way his master already has them in his hands at the start of his turn.
-Spend a move/full round action reloading a light/heavy crossbow in his master's hands, so he has it already loaded at the start of his turn?
-Do anithing else to speed up the action economy? If so, is it because monkeys have hands or does it applies to other familiars too?
Thanks to all! :)
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None of those ideas are going to help you much.
"Manipulating an object" is a move action. The monkey could probably retrieve stored items from the master's inventory unhindered, as a move action, but it would still require a move action from the master to take it from the monkey.
No action economy gained.
You'll encounter table variation on whether such a tiny-sized creature can reload a high tension weapon as a crossbow, but even for those GMs that allow it, you run into the same problem as with stored items. The Alchemist will need to spend a move action to take the crossbow from the monkey.
Throwing alchemical weapons seems fine within the rules (there is the bombardier trick), but really, wouldn't you want the Alchemist throwing those weapons, and not the Familiar?
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Couldn't the Alchemist make Tiny Monkey sized splash alchemy items?
To my knowledge, splash weapons are not available in different sizes, they simply exist as a specific item.
I actually made great use of a monkey familiar with my wand-wielder magus. On my turn I could draw a wand and cast from it, then have the monkey take the wand and return it to its place.
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Monkey
N Tiny animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +5
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 size)
hp 4 (1d8)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee bite +4 melee (1d3–4)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 6
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +10, Perception +5; Racial Modifiers +8 AcrobaticsThrow splash weapons (acid flasks, alchemist's fire)?yes, but at -7(BAB+0 DEX+1 SZ-2*(4)) as a Std actn as flasks are Med sz and the monkey is tiny, the size differential may infer the flask is two-handed and move the actn to a Full actn. The size means Wpn Fnss feat does not apply. Prepare to throw splash weapon is a Full actn that provokes.
Spend one/two move actions in his turn retrieving one/two item/s stored in his master's inventory and giving them to him? In this way his master already has them in his hands at the start of his turn.maybe. If it is on the master the monkey will have to succeed on a Climb chk to navigate and hold onto the master (free Mov actn as it's a 2.5' move and with +10 an auto check unless you are running/moving violently(see mounts)). Next it will have to get the item and different access times apply on exactly where it is. Generally this is a Mov actn that provokes (the second move action). Dropping the item into the hands of your master is a Free actn to a Mov actn (manipulate an item).
Spend a move/full round action reloading a light/heavy crossbow in his master's hands, so he has it already loaded at the start of his turn?cannot accomplish. Again your crossbow is med size two-handed wpn and the monkey is two sizes smaller with a very low STR.
Do anithing else to speed up the action economy?sure... the familiar can do any mundane actions a tiny creature could do, and with the INT boost from being a familiar it can think of options.
If so, is it because monkeys have...
Familars use their masters base attack bonus, so the calculation is a little different after level 2, and even then, weapon Finesse applies to attacks with melee weapons, it is not relevant when making attacks with ranged weapons.
And since when to we list alchemical weapons as weapons ? Or scale their damage, and ease of use by size category? A flask of alchemists fire weighs one pound (which is well within the encumbrance limit of a monkey) and splash weapons don't require proficiency.
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Couldn't the Alchemist make Tiny Monkey sized splash alchemy items?To my knowledge, splash weapons are not available in different sizes, they simply exist as a specific item.
I actually made great use of a monkey familiar with my wand-wielder magus. On my turn I could draw a wand and cast from it, then have the monkey take the wand and return it to its place.
Clever, so essentially you are allowing your monkey to use the steal combat maneuver to get the wand from your (open) palm^^
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...Monkey
N Tiny animal
Init +2; Senses low-light vision; Perception +5
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 size)
hp 4 (1d8)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee bite +4 melee (1d3–4)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 6
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +10, Perception +5; Racial Modifiers +8 AcrobaticsThrow splash weapons (acid flasks, alchemist's fire)?yes, but at -7(BAB+0 DEX+1 SZ-2*(4)) as a Std actn as flasks are Med sz and the monkey is tiny, the size differential may infer the flask is two-handed and move the actn to a Full actn. The size means Wpn Fnss feat does not apply. Prepare to throw splash weapon is a Full actn that provokes.
Spend one/two move actions in his turn retrieving one/two item/s stored in his master's inventory and giving them to him? In this way his master already has them in his hands at the start of his turn.maybe. If it is on the master the monkey will have to succeed on a Climb chk to navigate and hold onto the master (free Mov actn as it's a 2.5' move and with +10 an auto check unless you are running/moving violently(see mounts)). Next it will have to get the item and different access times apply on exactly where it is. Generally this is a Mov actn that provokes (the second move action). Dropping the item into the hands of your master is a Free actn to a Mov actn (manipulate an item).
Spend a move/full round action reloading a light/heavy crossbow in his master's hands, so he has it already loaded at the start of his turn?cannot accomplish. Again your crossbow is med size two-handed wpn and the monkey is two sizes smaller with a very low STR.
Do anithing else to speed up the action economy?sure... the familiar can do any mundane actions a tiny creature could do, and with the INT boost from being a familiar it can think of options.
If
Indeed some calculations are wrong.
It should be able to hit with splash weapon with:0 (BAB at 1st lvl) + 2 (Dex) + 2 (Tiny) = + 4
To answer Nefreet, the monkey should throw flasks ALONG with the alchemist... 2d6 damages more (hybridization funnel) are always good.
Plus, the alchemist is going to be Small (Wayang).
I wrote here in order to decide between the +4 initiative/poison of the Greensting Scorpion, +2 on will ST of the Hedgehog and the (presumed) higher versatility of the Monkey (+3 on Acrobatics is quite useless). So, actually, aside for wands, does the Monkey (that I prefer over the others for his flavour) stand a chance?
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I've seen many GMs allow one player to use their move/standard action to place an object in the empty hands of a second player without requiring the second player to spend any actions.
I will note I am one of these GMs - my philosophy is that the 'action cost' is being paid, and in a number of cases, it has allowed a player to stay 'in the action' during an encounter they are not built/equipped/capable of contributing to; also, encounters where the party has all of one tool for the job, finding creative ways to 'pass the baton' around so multiple people can try to overcome the obstacle has been a thing.
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One player giving up some or all of their turn to assist another player's action economy is fine. But to try and completely circumvent the action economy system by finding some "tail end" (pun intended) loophole, is simply trying to game the system. The balance of combat is largely based on action economy. You break it, you break the game.
While having your monkey tossing flasks or stowing wands, doesn't seem like a big deal, it certainly sets the precedent for larger, more egregious infractions. And a ruling shouldn't read, "you can do this as long as its minor and no big deal." Either you can or you can't.
For the sake of game balance, I would hope people would stop trying to find "tail end" loopholes of circumventing the limitations of action economy.
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One player giving up some or all of their turn to assist another player's action economy is fine. But to try and completely circumvent the action economy system by finding some "tail end" (pun intended) loophole, is simply trying to game the system. The balance of combat is largely based on action economy. You break it, you break the game.
While having your monkey tossing flasks or stowing wands, doesn't seem like a big deal, it certainly sets the precedent for larger, more egregious infractions. And a ruling shouldn't read, "you can do this as long as its minor and no big deal." Either you can or you can't.
For the sake of game balance, I would hope people would stop trying to find "tail end" loopholes of circumventing the limitations of action economy.
Yeah, totally agree. In fact, I'm not asking you "how can I break the game", but simply what a Monkey familiar can, by RAW, do, in order to decide which familiar choose. Linear.
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One player giving up some or all of their turn to assist another player's action economy is fine. But to try and completely circumvent the action economy system by finding some "tail end" (pun intended) loophole, is simply trying to game the system. The balance of combat is largely based on action economy. You break it, you break the game.
While having your monkey tossing flasks or stowing wands, doesn't seem like a big deal, it certainly sets the precedent for larger, more egregious infractions. And a ruling shouldn't read, "you can do this as long as its minor and no big deal." Either you can or you can't.
For the sake of game balance, I would hope people would stop trying to find "tail end" loopholes of circumventing the limitations of action economy.
Are you specifically talking about tiefling tails? If so, what part of those do you have a problem with?
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One player giving up some or all of their turn to assist another player's action economy is fine. But to try and completely circumvent the action economy system by finding some "tail end" (pun intended) loophole, is simply trying to game the system. The balance of combat is largely based on action economy. You break it, you break the game.
While having your monkey tossing flasks or stowing wands, doesn't seem like a big deal, it certainly sets the precedent for larger, more egregious infractions. And a ruling shouldn't read, "you can do this as long as its minor and no big deal." Either you can or you can't.
For the sake of game balance, I would hope people would stop trying to find "tail end" loopholes of circumventing the limitations of action economy.
While I agree in theory, since we already have the bombard trick for animal companions, using monkeys to throw splash weapons is fine.
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Is it? Is it ok for them to attack with other weapons?
I would have to check the FAQ :
Can my animal companion or familiar wear or use magic items?
It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. [b] Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.[/bAnimal companions are also limited by their individual anatomies. In Pathfinder Society Organized Play, animal companions always have access to barding and neck-slot items so long as they have the anatomy. For example, a horse and pig can always have access to barding and neck-slot items. A snake does not have access to either. However, an item called out to be used by a specific animal is usable by that animal regardless of slot.
Additionally, animal companions have access to magical item slots, in addition to barding and neck, as listed on the inside front cover of the Animal Archive so long as they select the Extra Item Slot feat. The Animal Magic Item Slots table found in Animal Archive is not a legal except under the following conditions. First, an animal companion, familiar, or bonded mount, may choose one slot listed under its body type when taking the Extra Item Slot feat (this feat may be taken multiple times, each time selecting a different available magic item slot based on the creature’s anatomy). Second, access to specific magic item slots may be granted at a later date by another legal source. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.
An animal or familiar has to have an intelligence of 3+ to activate an ioun stone. If the animal or familiar has less than a 3 intelligence, they may not activate an ioun stone.
The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart. The carbuncle and voidworm protean, familiars granted by the Improved Familiar feat, uses the Serpentine section of the chart. If you do not own a copy of the Animal Archive, your animal companion may only use barding and neck-slot items.
RAW is pretty clear, as long as you have the right physiology, you can use manufactured weapons, unles you are an animal companion.
And frankly considering the fact that animal companions are usually quite small and lack proficiency, I don't see the problem, especially since using your familiar in combat puts it in real danger.
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Could the monkey take extra item slot for the poisoner's gloves?
Normally humanoid familiars cannot because of the text of that feat, but do the pfs specific changes void that rule? That would be an odd rules interaction if a familiar which is normally supposed to have all the item slots not only starts off with the same number as everybody else, but is unable to gain more.
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While I agree in theory, since we already have the bombard trick for animal companions, using monkeys to throw splash weapons is fine.One player giving up some or all of their turn to assist another player's action economy is fine. But to try and completely circumvent the action economy system by finding some "tail end" (pun intended) loophole, is simply trying to game the system. The balance of combat is largely based on action economy. You break it, you break the game.
While having your monkey tossing flasks or stowing wands, doesn't seem like a big deal, it certainly sets the precedent for larger, more egregious infractions. And a ruling shouldn't read, "you can do this as long as its minor and no big deal." Either you can or you can't.
For the sake of game balance, I would hope people would stop trying to find "tail end" loopholes of circumventing the limitations of action economy.
Actually...
1) Bombard (DC 20): A flying animal can deliver projectiles on command, attempting to drop a specified item that it can carry (often alchemist's fire or some other incendiary) on a designated point or opponent, using its base attack bonus to determine its attack roll. The animal cannot throw the object, and must be able to fly directly over the target.
So it applyes only to flying familiars, and is neather a proper attack but just a drop (so no Dex to hit).
2) Wands cannot be used by familiars, as any other magical item, except for some Improved familiars (Imp, ...): http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q128?New-FAQ-Improved-Familiars-and-wands
The thing is that I don't like to put my familiar under my skin and use it just as a +2 Perception/Sense Motive bonus, but actually "use" it actively. Sadly, I don't know how.
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While I agree in theory, since we already have the bombard trick for animal companions, using monkeys to throw splash weapons is fine.One player giving up some or all of their turn to assist another player's action economy is fine. But to try and completely circumvent the action economy system by finding some "tail end" (pun intended) loophole, is simply trying to game the system. The balance of combat is largely based on action economy. You break it, you break the game.
While having your monkey tossing flasks or stowing wands, doesn't seem like a big deal, it certainly sets the precedent for larger, more egregious infractions. And a ruling shouldn't read, "you can do this as long as its minor and no big deal." Either you can or you can't.
For the sake of game balance, I would hope people would stop trying to find "tail end" loopholes of circumventing the limitations of action economy.
Actually...
1) Bombard (DC 20): A flying animal can deliver projectiles on command, attempting to drop a specified item that it can carry (often alchemist's fire or some other incendiary) on a designated point or opponent, using its base attack bonus to determine its attack roll. The animal cannot throw the object, and must be able to fly directly over the target.
So it applyes only to flying familiars, and is neather a proper attack but just a drop (so no Dex to hit).
2) Wands cannot be used by familiars, as any other magical item, except for some Improved familiars (Imp, ...): http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q128?New-FAQ-Improved-Familiars-and-wands
The thing is that I don't like to put my familiar under my skin and use it just as a +2 Perception/Sense Motive bonus, but actually "use" it actively. Sadly, I don't know how.
Well Animal companions don't have hands and can't use manufactured weapons, so the accuracy being reduced isn't actually that bad, cover will likely not interfere (especially soft cover).
That said, each familiar already give a decent bonus (in addition to the alertness feat ), a monkey just happens to give a bonus equivalent to skill focus on acrobatics checks.
So it applyes only to flying familiars, and is neather a proper attack but just a drop (so no Dex to hit).
That's not entirely correct. Dropping objects is an attack.
Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.