Wizard VMC gets a familiar at 3...
Does this mean my eidolon can have a familiar?
VMC is not a feat that you take, it's an option that reduces the amount of feats you'd normally get. So, no, you can't give an eidolon or a familiar or whatever a VMC.
VMC is basically a set of Archetypes that any class can take that give the abilities of a class in exchange for half your feats.
If you combine it with normal multi-classing and Archetypes you could get basically a very specific character.
If you combine VMC with one class and an archetype that gives a third classes stuff you could get wacky there too.
For instance, a Hexcrafter Magus has magus stuff, witch stuff, then he can take say Sorcerer or Oracle VMC and get a third layer of stuff.
It definitely doesn't "replace" multi-classing-- particularly for spell casters (you get no spells from VMC), but it looks to have some interesting options.
I'd use it just so I can have an eidolon without being a spellcaster.
VMC is not a feat that you take, it's an option that reduces the amount of feats you'd normally get. So, no, you can't give an eidolon or a familiar or whatever a VMC.
Why wouldn't eidolons be able to take that option?
Because the don't have a character class. It's not a feat. It's a variant on multiclassing. You have to be able to class to do it.I'd use it just so I can have an eidolon without being a spellcaster.
VMC is not a feat that you take, it's an option that reduces the amount of feats you'd normally get. So, no, you can't give an eidolon or a familiar or whatever a VMC.Why wouldn't eidolons be able to take that option?
Does specifically say this? Or are just thinking it logically works like this?
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Does specifically say this? Or are just thinking it logically works like this?Because the don't have a character class. It's not a feat. It's a variant on multiclassing. You have to be able to class to do it.I'd use it just so I can have an eidolon without being a spellcaster.
VMC is not a feat that you take, it's an option that reduces the amount of feats you'd normally get. So, no, you can't give an eidolon or a familiar or whatever a VMC.Why wouldn't eidolons be able to take that option?
Having read over that section of PFU pretty thoroughly... this is a "it doesn't say you can't" situation. If that makes sense. :)
And Eidolon doesn't qualify for variant multiclassing, period. It requires a character trade out specific feats gained at specific levels, of which the Eidolon doesn't possess. So no eidolon multiclassing shenanigans.
One thought I had was if you gave free VMC (i.e. not costing feats), it could work like "gestalt-lite"
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If that's the case, why would you vmc a caster when you don't get the main class feature (i.e. casting)?But would the fighter with vmc wiz get any spells or a spellbook? all i see are the school powers and a familiar.And that's EXACTLY what they get.
Gee, I dunno, because you want the familiar (which can be anything from a combat buddy to a mini-bard via archetypes) and the school powers (at-will fly at 10th from Air school, swift action teleports at 1st level from Teleportation, huge initiative bonuses from Divination, etc), and don't want to actually play a spellcaster?
Variant Multiclassing isn't - I've studied and become a full member of a different class, for that use regular multiclassing. It more closely reprisents the guy who has picked up a couple of odd tricks.
A wizard who has a bit of religious training and can turn his spells into Cures. A rogue with a magic trick or two. Someone with a bit of an exotic background.
It's a customization tool like Archetypes.
A Counterfit Mage rogue with VMC-Wizard and Bookish Rogue feat makes for a fairly convincing fake wizard.
I doubt VMC is going to be an "optimal" choice for anyone really but it makes a great way to flesh out a concept.
And Eidolon doesn't qualify for variant multiclassing, period. It requires a character trade out specific feats gained at specific levels, of which the Eidolon doesn't possess. So no eidolon multiclassing shenanigans.
An eidolon gets a feat at every odd hit die, just like a player character does. However, it does max out at 15 hit dice, so it would never get the final ability that is granted at 19th level. But you could make the basic system work with an eidolon if you want to -- and there is nothing unbalanced about it because they pay the same feat cost as a player character does.
In any case -- how do you think Mark Seifter became a ROGUE eidolon?
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While it technically says it gives out a second class, you could totally give one to monsters if you want, as an alternative to the class templates for quickly adding a class's flavor to a monster (and hey, then you have fewer feats you have to pick for that monster!)
And Eidolon doesn't qualify for variant multiclassing, period. It requires a character trade out specific feats gained at specific levels, of which the Eidolon doesn't possess. So no eidolon multiclassing shenanigans.An eidolon gets a feat at every odd hit die, just like a player character does. However, it does max out at 15 hit dice, so it would never get the final ability that is granted at 19th level. But you could make the basic system work with an eidolon if you want to -- and there is nothing unbalanced about it because they pay the same feat cost as a player character does.
In any case -- how do you think Mark Seifter became a ROGUE eidolon?
Nice
Jason created the Unchained Summoner class, maybe it's a question for him. Just like APs, I try and follow the intention of the designers when I make my own customisations/modifications.
I think Fighter is one of the best classes to use these options-- they get enough bonus feats that they can afford to give them up and there are plenty of great options for them.
Magus gives Arcane Pool so the fighter can effectively enchant any weapon they pick up.
Rogue just straight up gives the fighter sneak attack-- there was an option for this in Unearthed Arcana in 3.5 and let me tell you, and putting the full BaB and in PF Weapon Training on top of Sneak Attack seems tempting. (Also picks up Evasion at 11th).
Sorcerer Bloodlines, Wizard School, and Cleric Domains all have some cool possibilities too.
I think I'd consider using it as a Primary caster as well-- either to get some of another caster's stuff, or to snag something like Monk or Rogue for the defensive abilities. (Monk is basically trading 2 feats each for Evasion and a +3 Dodge to AC since Improved Unarmed Strike isn't great for casters).
Where I think this system really doesn't shine is non-Fighter martial characters-- Paladins/Barbarians/Rogues etc have so few feats and so many options to use them on that giving up half for some cool stuff is probably not worth it usually. Ranger/Monk could afford to since they get a good amount of bonus feats as well.
As far as the Eidelon with these options. . . that is definitely straying into the house rule territory.
You could also apply these rules to high hit dice monsters like Giants/Dragons as another way to give them more variety?
[edit]Mark got there first on the Monster idea while I was typing! Now I look silly. . .
The Variant Multiclasses, while cool, do feel a bit on the weak side for the level you get them at, like the Skill Unlocks. At level 11 I can get cantrips with my wizard VMC, or I could take a Critical/Metamagic feat? Those two things aren't equal. Some of them are cool, but I was hoping for something like a fighter getting one or two first level spells at level 3 with his wizard VMC, or being able to wild shape at level 7 with my barbarian for maybe a minute/day. I tinkered with a couple existing "stock" characters I keep in reserve as a DM, and after introducing the VMCs I felt like they didn't add much, on the whole, and in some cases actually made it very difficult to keep a build moving forward because of the dearth of feats.
For most classes that aren't full casters, feats are important to maintain a certain amount of inertia so that they don't fall behind what a caster can do. If I want to have a Barbarian/VMC Druid dwarf barbarian, my first level feat is probably going to be Power Attack. Instead of getting Furious Focus, Raging Vitality, Iron Will, Improved Overrun (because overrun dwarf barbarians are fun), I get to try Diplomacy checks with animals. That's shabby, and is repeated across almost all of the VMCs except maybe Barbarian, Cavalier, and Summoner.
If that was the intent, then I suppose it worked, but overall I think the VMCs could've given something a little different to make the class feel more like a mesh, and less like a Fighter/Wizard that can't cast any spells.
I assume with the Sorcerer version, you don't get the Arcana?
Yeah no Arcana, just bloodline powers a few levels behind (1st level power at 3rd, 3rd level power at 7th, 9th at 15th and 15th at 19th) plus a bloodline feat.
How do you think this system would work with normal multi-classing?
In your games would you have them choose one VMC and get the abilities at the total character level regardless of how they split actual levels do you think?
Does specifically say this? Or are just thinking it logically works like this?
It explicitly says that you choose your VMC secondary class at 1st level. This is further reinforced by the fact that ethos-bound characters (eg, paladins, clerics, and druids) are bound to their ethos at 1st level, and VMC-sorcerers choose their Bloodline at 1st also.
The change caused by VMC is similar to an archetype that affects:
L1 - Choose a class for VMC. You may no longer standard multiclass into this class, nor its archetypes or alternate (or antecedent) classes. If the class has alignment or ethos restrictions, you must obey them. If the class has decisions that affect class mechanics as a package (such as bloodline or order,) you must make those decisions now.
L3, 7, 11, 15, 19: Gain the VMC feature corresponding to your level. This ability replaces the standard feat you would gain at this level.
I think Fighter is one of the best classes to use these options-- they get enough bonus feats that they can afford to give them up and there are plenty of great options for them.
Magus gives Arcane Pool so the fighter can effectively enchant any weapon they pick up.
Rogue just straight up gives the fighter sneak attack-- there was an option for this in Unearthed Arcana in 3.5 and let me tell you, and putting the full BaB and in PF Weapon Training on top of Sneak Attack seems tempting. (Also picks up Evasion at 11th).
Sorcerer Bloodlines, Wizard School, and Cleric Domains all have some cool possibilities too.
I think I'd consider using it as a Primary caster as well-- either to get some of another caster's stuff, or to snag something like Monk or Rogue for the defensive abilities. (Monk is basically trading 2 feats each for Evasion and a +3 Dodge to AC since Improved Unarmed Strike isn't great for casters).
Where I think this system really doesn't shine is non-Fighter martial characters-- Paladins/Barbarians/Rogues etc have so few feats and so many options to use them on that giving up half for some cool stuff is probably not worth it usually. Ranger/Monk could afford to since they get a good amount of bonus feats as well.
As far as the Eidelon with these options. . . that is definitely straying into the house rule territory.
You could also apply these rules to high hit dice monsters like Giants/Dragons as another way to give them more variety?
[edit]Mark got there first on the Monster idea while I was typing! Now I look silly. . .
None of the feats a Fighter gets have anything to do with multiclassing.
The feats that the Fighter gives up are the ones he has to draw his defensive, versatility, movement, recovery and other non-combat abilities from.
General feats are far more precious to the fighter then to other classes that have these things as intrinsic things.
If these abilities can solve some of the fighter's problems, its a good trade.
But he doesn't have any more to give up then any other class. The feats he gets are already base underpowered and don't match up to most class features. General feats, considerably more important, are precious.
Just pointing this out.
==Aelryinth
It is indeed True, Kestral.
Because the Combat Feats of the Fighter have to be compared to Rage, Rage Powers, Greater Rage, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, and Fast Movement.
They are class abilities.
There are no combat feats that can do what Rage Powers can do.
Extra Rage Powers is a General feat. It is NOT a combat feat.
the barb's class abilities cover +10 movement, DR, bonus to will saves, TH/dmg with any weapon, extra hit points, inability to be flanked, and the many, many scaling abilities of rage powers.
The fighter's class features give none of that flexibility. There is no combat feat, for instance, that can match the potential +6 Nat AC bonus a Rage Power can grant.
Dodge grants a +1.
So what the Fighter is giving up is his very powerful, very necessary General Feats, which he gets no more of then anyone else, while the Barb is giving up General Feats, many of which he might just choose to instead spend on Extra Rage Power.
If the Fighter could indeed give up his Bonus Combat Feats for multi-classing, we would all be in a happy place. But he needs those general feats far more then the Barb does. The barb gets everything he needs off rage powers, general feats are extras that are nice.
Fighters needs every general feat he can scrounge, because combat feats are so underwhelming. Its the lack of what combat feats can actually do that make the Fighter the least of the core martials.
==Aelryinth
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Variant Multiclassing isn't - I've studied and become a full member of a different class, for that use regular multiclassing. It more closely reprisents the guy who has picked up a couple of odd tricks.
A wizard who has a bit of religious training and can turn his spells into Cures. A rogue with a magic trick or two. Someone with a bit of an exotic background.
It's a customization tool like Archetypes.
A Counterfit Mage rogue with VMC-Wizard and Bookish Rogue feat makes for a fairly convincing fake wizard.
I doubt VMC is going to be an "optimal" choice for anyone really but it makes a great way to flesh out a concept.
I do want to address one point here: a wizard can't spontaneously cast cure spells. The ability specifies that you must have those spells on your class list. So druids and witches can do so, but wizards cannot. :(
can someone please link the page for this variant multiclassing thing. i want to see what it looks like.
can someone please link the page for this variant multiclassing thing. i want to see what it looks like.
You could buy the PDF, it's really cheap $10.00.
I don't think there is anything up about Pathfinder Unchained on the PRD.
can someone please link the page for this variant multiclassing thing. i want to see what it looks like.You could buy the PDF, it's really cheap $10.00.
I don't think there is anything up about Pathfinder Unchained on the PRD.
ok so this isnt allowed in PFS correct.?
can someone please link the page for this variant multiclassing thing. i want to see what it looks like.You could buy the PDF, it's really cheap $10.00.
I don't think there is anything up about Pathfinder Unchained on the PRD.
ok so this isnt allowed in PFS correct.?
If I'm not mistaken, I believe PFS will have its own FAQ and rules changes to incorporate parts of Unchained (more than likely things like the class reduxes, stamina, skill unlocks, and maybe VMCs)
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can someone please link the page for this variant multiclassing thing. i want to see what it looks like.You could buy the PDF, it's really cheap $10.00.
I don't think there is anything up about Pathfinder Unchained on the PRD.
ok so this isnt allowed in PFS correct.?
Monday's blog post discussed what from Pathfinder Unchained would be PFS legal.
Variant Multiclassing is not PFS legal.
How, exactly, does the secondary class work in regards to class-specific feats? If I'm a ranger/ VMC fighter, can I take Weapon Specialization?
No, you don't count as having levels of fighter for feat purposes. You only get the abilities listed.
I do want to address one point here: a wizard can't spontaneously cast cure spells. The ability specifies that you must have those spells on your class list. So druids and witches can do so, but wizards cannot. :(Variant Multiclassing isn't - I've studied and become a full member of a different class, for that use regular multiclassing. It more closely reprisents the guy who has picked up a couple of odd tricks.
A wizard who has a bit of religious training and can turn his spells into Cures. A rogue with a magic trick or two. Someone with a bit of an exotic background.
It's a customization tool like Archetypes.
A Counterfit Mage rogue with VMC-Wizard and Bookish Rogue feat makes for a fairly convincing fake wizard.
I doubt VMC is going to be an "optimal" choice for anyone really but it makes a great way to flesh out a concept.
you're right
Would a Bard be able to if he didn't take Cure as a known spell?
Here is a thought for a high level villain
Summoner + VMC-Wizard (conjurer) + Imp Familiar feat + Summon Evil Monsters + 15th level VMC-Wizard Arcane Discovery True Name
Demon Eidolon, Demon Familiar, 18HD Demon true name, Monster Summoned Demons.
gives you a nice Master of Demons to threaten your players
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Another option using this system would be for the GM to use it as a way of setting a specific flavor.
For example if you were running a Kung-Fu style campaign you could rule "Everyone gets VMC-Monk benefits. Monk gets VMC from one other class based on what dojo he trained at. Everyone keeps their feats"
How, exactly, does the secondary class work in regards to class-specific feats? If I'm a ranger/ VMC fighter, can I take Weapon Specialization?No, you don't count as having levels of fighter for feat purposes. You only get the abilities listed.Worth noting that you do have the class feature, which really matters for a lot more feats and items.
You can't take Weapon Specialization, but you can use Gloves of Dueling just fine.
Yes. Weapon Training with Gloves of Dueling is excellent. Armor Training is also nice for a character who can wear heavy armor. I have a Mymidarch who gets good use out of those features. And since those would stack with the Fighter abilities, a Myrmidarch with the Fighter VMC would end up with Armor Training 4 and Weapon Training 5 (actually 4 since it maxes out there.) With Gloves of Dueling he would be getting +6 to hit and damage on his first weapons group.
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I do want to address one point here: a wizard can't spontaneously cast cure spells. The ability specifies that you must have those spells on your class list. So druids and witches can do so, but wizards cannot. :(Variant Multiclassing isn't - I've studied and become a full member of a different class, for that use regular multiclassing. It more closely reprisents the guy who has picked up a couple of odd tricks.
A wizard who has a bit of religious training and can turn his spells into Cures. A rogue with a magic trick or two. Someone with a bit of an exotic background.
It's a customization tool like Archetypes.
A Counterfit Mage rogue with VMC-Wizard and Bookish Rogue feat makes for a fairly convincing fake wizard.
I doubt VMC is going to be an "optimal" choice for anyone really but it makes a great way to flesh out a concept.
you're right
Would a Bard be able to if he didn't take Cure as a known spell?
I think it also specifies "prepared caster" (must double-check). It's... a bit narrow. :/
It's just a cool way for your non-caster, to scare the locals by saying, "back off turds, I know witchcraft, sorta, a little bit!"
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Heh it depends some abilities are always good.
Divination school wizard is so strong on anybody, being able to act all the time on surprise round while having 1/2 character level as bonus to initiative and being able to reroll 1d20 is golden for any class. There are strange and powerful combos with the Wizard VMC, since the schools have a wide variety of powers, even better with the elemental schools and the fact that you count as having full wizard levels.
Oracle VMC is easily one of the best one, with wizard and Summoner, just because of all the goodies. Some revelations act like spells or better, like being able to reroll any saves which disable a fighter for example with a +4 insight bonus is way stronger than iron will from battle mysteries for example.
Summoner is just strong for one reason, SLA summon Monster, yeah getting an eidolon could allow some shenanigans I guess but the SLA summon monster scaling is where the gold is. Any class can benefit from summoning the proper monster for whatever battle they are in.
Witch are a little bit behind just because that a decent int modifiers, some of the hexes are not as good, but well, can still see a fighter combining Lunge + Prehensile hair to have an impressive reach of 15 ft.
I do want to address one point here: a wizard can't spontaneously cast cure spells. The ability specifies that you must have those spells on your class list. So druids and witches can do so, but wizards cannot. :(Variant Multiclassing isn't - I've studied and become a full member of a different class, for that use regular multiclassing. It more closely reprisents the guy who has picked up a couple of odd tricks.
A wizard who has a bit of religious training and can turn his spells into Cures. A rogue with a magic trick or two. Someone with a bit of an exotic background.
It's a customization tool like Archetypes.
A Counterfit Mage rogue with VMC-Wizard and Bookish Rogue feat makes for a fairly convincing fake wizard.
I doubt VMC is going to be an "optimal" choice for anyone really but it makes a great way to flesh out a concept.
you're right
Would a Bard be able to if he didn't take Cure as a known spell?
Nope. VMC-Cleric specifies prep casters. Bard, oracle, and inquisitor are all spontaneous casters, and so do not get any benefit from the feature.
Does the Sorcerer VMC give you the bloodline arcana? How different is it from the basic Eldritch Heritage line?