Capture Spell is Amazing


Magus Class


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Boss Monster, did you just miss me with a higher-level-than-I-can-cast Finger of Death?

Yoink. Hope you are immune to negative damage, because that's coming right back at you...

Dark Archive

I skimmed the document and missed that until I saw your post. Damn, this is going to be so amazing!


Would standing next to a lasting AoE spell like, say, Wall of Fire or Flaming Sphere allow you to do it every turn ?
Could you trigger it on a friendly caster's spell?

Imagine your Wizard buddy casting a Flaming Sphere in melee, you get there in the thick of it and feed on your friend's spell to empower your own strikes while trying not to burn alive.

This feat alone defines the Magus as a mage-killer, that's kind of awesome.


I like this feat. Some similar feats (like mirror shield) require a critical save or critically failed attack roll which severely limits their usability. This one seems quite a bit more useful.

Kalaam wrote:

Would standing next to a lasting AoE spell like, say, Wall of Fire or Flaming Sphere allow you to do it every turn ?

Could you trigger it on a friendly caster's spell?

It only works on targeted spells, so that would not work.


Yeah, it's also a good synergy with the class' core mechanic.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mechalibur wrote:
I like this feat. Some similar feats (like mirror shield) require a critical save or critically failed attack roll which severely limits their usability. This one seems quite a bit more useful.

Yeah, that was exactly what caught my eye. Only needing a regular success means you are likely to be able to use it pretty frequently.

Only working on targeted spells is something of a limitation, but it still works on multitarget spells regardless of how your allies save; so a spellcaster that hits the whole party with Fear is going to catch it back from you in all likelihood.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

My concern here is that it's hard to keep Spell Parry (and thus Capture Spell) up with the action economy.

If you're going to be using Striking Spell frequently, how often are you going to have an action to keep Spell Parry up?


QAlchemist wrote:

My concern here is that it's hard to keep Spell Parry (and thus Capture Spell) up with the action economy.

If you're going to be using Striking Spell frequently, how often are you going to have an action to keep Spell Parry up?

You do not need to strike right after using Spell Striking (really should rename it Spell Imbuing or something) so you could put the spell in your weapon, Spell parry, and attack on the next turn for example. Attempt 2 strikes (hoping one connects and delivers the spell) then spell parry again.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yeah, and you technically aren't even losing action economy doing that compared to casting the spell normally; Magus just kinds of "buys into" better action economy in their next turn when they do that.


Re-reading it specifies "a foe's harmfull spell", which is kind of a bummer. But it's still a very nice counter.


Yeah, Capture Spell was my favorite too!

I don't think the action economy is much of a problem at all; the other feats and features contain a lot of action economy hacks that smooth that out really well (and for some builds, trying to Strike Spell with your own spells might be a bit of a trap option).

And "harmfull spells" is a really big bucket. Harm isn't just damage.


Oh yes, it's "foe" that is a "bummer".
I would have loved to raise my sword so my Sorcerer buddy could fling a Polar Ray a me so I catch it and strike someone with it.


Kalaam wrote:

Oh yes, it's "foe" that is a "bummer".

I would have loved to raise my sword so my Sorcerer buddy could fling a Polar Ray a me so I catch it and strike someone with it.

It's hard to see what's in it for your Sorcerer buddy, who would probably prefer the spell to have a decent chance of hitting rather than being wasted.


Xenocrat wrote:
Kalaam wrote:

Oh yes, it's "foe" that is a "bummer".

I would have loved to raise my sword so my Sorcerer buddy could fling a Polar Ray a me so I catch it and strike someone with it.
It's hard to see what's in it for your Sorcerer buddy, who would probably prefer the spell to have a decent chance of hitting rather than being wasted.

Rule of cool. or the ennemy could be behind a wall so they cannot target them.

Or he could just use a Fireball, hitting the ennemy and the Magus, assuming good Reflex saves or fire resistance, it could make a risky but fun team attack.


Cons
- 1 action to spell parry
- Reaction free
- 2 class feats ( lvl 4 and lvl 8 ) required.
- The spell has to target you ( so no aoe spells )

Pro
-Works on a success/failure instead of a critical one

____

I think this is something which is not going to occour that much to justify the action and the feats.

Not to say that a spellcaster would target with fortitude stuff spellcasters ( or players not close to it ), and with will stuff melee ones***.

In this case, the magus is ok because it will hit master by lvl 9 ( even if for anything else would have been better to have juggernaut instead ).

***This is just basic knowledge anybody has ( as somebody who tries an athletic checks would probably try to trip a large enemy and to push a small one )


Oh right you have to be *targetted* that makes it less interresting. The ennemy can just not target you with spells at all...
It's cool because then the ennemy will take a big risk using spells against you, but depending on your dm he may just start making spell caster never target you and that's it.


Kalaam wrote:

Oh right you have to be *targetted* that makes it less interresting. The ennemy can just not target you with spells at all...

It's cool because then the ennemy will take a big risk using spells against you, but depending on your dm he may just start making spell caster never target you and that's it.

In my opinion, this could have been a 1/day feat

- No spell parry requirement ( even if it could stacks if the character wants to also use it )
- It works on any spell ( targeting, aoe, etc )

Then you will be able to deal with it at least 1 per day, beign able to choose among different situations, and also rewarding you with a better action management.


Once per day is too limiting I think. A lot of Magus abilities only trigger on spell slot usage and those are very limited, so those abilities won't get triggered a lot already.

Capture Spell seems to be your way of Spell Striking more often and with a better variety of spells, limiting it to once a day (while it's already rare enough to encounter spell casters) would make it TOO niche.


If your DM is inclined to tweak the enemies' spell lists to not include single target spells just because of this feat, that's kind of a strong advantage in and of itself.


Reticent wrote:
If your DM is inclined to tweak the enemies' spell lists to not include single target spells just because of this feat, that's kind of a strong advantage in and of itself.

It does not feel like an advantage if it removes gameplay opportunity. It's like the DM removing all undead from the game because you have a Paladin and a Cleric in the party. (to a less extreme extent)


Kalaam wrote:

Once per day is too limiting I think. A lot of Magus abilities only trigger on spell slot usage and those are very limited, so those abilities won't get triggered a lot already.

Capture Spell seems to be your way of Spell Striking more often and with a better variety of spells, limiting it to once a day (while it's already rare enough to encounter spell casters) would make it TOO niche.

That could be true, but remember that it could pass 1 day without you being targeted by a single spell in 4/5 different encounters.

I am fine with 4 spells per day.

This one will just allow you to have an extra one ( probably of high level ) for "free".

You will then be able to withstand 5 fights, casting 1 big one every fight, instead of 4. It's a 25% more, which is definitely good.

Of course I agree with you when you say that you might be able to use it more than once per day. I just wanted to point out also the opposite outcome ( zero per day ).


could make it once an hour with reduced effect if used more often like the Dragon Barbs Breath Weapon


1 person marked this as a favorite.
HumbleGamer wrote:


Not to say that a spellcaster would target with fortitude stuff spellcasters ( or players not close to it ), and with will stuff melee ones***.

In this case, the magus is ok because it will hit master by lvl 9 ( even if for anything else would have been better to have juggernaut instead ).

***This is just basic knowledge anybody has ( as somebody who tries an athletic checks would probably try to trip a large enemy and to push a small one )

Magus is a melee one, and I don't see how it lends itself to so obviously being good at any particular save that enemies will never target them. Summoner is also getting a lot of fears about things not working because the GM metagames to downplay their strengths, and that's weird. If a GM is liable to do that, you probably have much bigger problems, and it doesn't really reflect on the class itself.


MaxAstro wrote:

Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Boss Monster, did you just miss me with a higher-level-than-I-can-cast Finger of Death?

Yoink. Hope you are immune to negative damage, because that's coming right back at you...

I mean I guess boss monsters can roll a 2 on a d20 like won't else lol


Alfa/Polaris wrote:


Magus is a melee one, and I don't see how it lends itself to so obviously being good at any particular save that enemies will never target them. Summoner is also getting a lot of fears about things not working because the GM metagames to downplay their strengths, and that's weird. If a GM is liable to do that, you probably have much bigger problems, and it doesn't really reflect on the class itself.

I meant that an intelligent being won't throw a fortitude spell on a fighter. That's it.

As you "character" decides how to deal with athletics maneuvers, or simply to use a specific spell against a creature instead of another.

There's no metagame at all.

Enemies will try to fight at their best.

And If an enemy is an intelligent one ( not a beast, for example ) or even a spellcaster, it will try to use its spells on the best possible target, as you player would do.


Kalaam wrote:
It does not feel like an advantage if it removes gameplay opportunity. It's like the DM removing all undead from the game because you have a Paladin and a Cleric in the party. (to a less extreme extent)

I mean this as gently as I can, but if your DM is removing that many options just to hamstring characters, then they could stand to improve considerably as DMs.

From my point of view- Capture Spell means I can focus my tactical choices around mitigating area of effect damage. Whether that's because I know that targeting me specifically is a large risk for my opponents, or because I know my opponents are leaving their Disintegrates at home and just bringing bigger Fireballs, the end result is about the same for me.


True, but then no reason to limit it to once a day.
That the ennemy "respects" the threat and stop target the Magus specifically with spells is likely intended, and of course if the DM plays "against players" that way it's a DM issue.
I just find it a bit disappointed that then... you're back at using your very limited ressources.

"I can empower myself when my ennemies try to throw spell at me!
But nobody does because I can." Kind of weird situation. That's what I meant by finding it a bit of a bummer that it's only targeted spells and not others like AoEs etc. (Though multi target spells would also work, but usually they can exclude you from the targets)


The entire idea that a DM is actively cutting into your character's strengths or hand holding and catering to their weaknesses is a silly argument to make.

Rather the concern comes from normal play and expectations. Not an adversarial DM or a hand holding one. Simple logic and natural reactions.


Yeah, this seems unlikely to happen. First, they have to target you with a spell (rare enough that they use targeted spells, but then also picking you as the target), then, you have to have spell parry going, which, with your very tight actions (3 for spellstrike in the same round), is not often going to happen, and finally, they have to miss or you have to save against the spell.

I suppose you might put up spell parry on your non-spellstrike rounds, if you didn't have to move, instead of doing a third attack.


Yes, on paper when you do get it to trigger it's awesome.
But the situation needs to be juuuust right.

Edit: And I apologize, my argument was indeed completely irrelevant


Martialmasters wrote:

The entire idea that a DM is actively cutting into your character's strengths or hand holding and catering to their weaknesses is a silly argument to make.

Rather the concern comes from normal play and expectations. Not an adversarial DM or a hand holding one. Simple logic and natural reactions.

It's not the DM which is cutting.

It's the enemy which will try to include more target possible in its aoe, or to target combatants with mind influence spells or caster with physical damage stuff.

The enemies as the players try to play at their best.
Even if you give a party with characters which looks alike the enemy will consider combatants those who rush forward bearing a sword or a great axe.

Sometimes I think that peoeple really confuse logic with metagaming.

I, as a player, tend to "charge" ( or move forward to ) the enemy in the back, with less armor ( eventually wielding a staff? ) even before it has had time to act.

Is this metagaming?
Really.


Bast L. wrote:

Yeah, this seems unlikely to happen. First, they have to target you with a spell (rare enough that they use targeted spells, but then also picking you as the target), then, you have to have spell parry going, which, with your very tight actions (3 for spellstrike in the same round), is not often going to happen, and finally, they have to miss or you have to save against the spell.

I suppose you might put up spell parry on your non-spellstrike rounds, if you didn't have to move, instead of doing a third attack.

You can work around the action economy though, whether trough the several available haste effects, or simply leaning on attack patterns that don't require using your own spells to Striking Spell every turn.

It's situational, and I kind of wish Capture Spell was a viable option for the non-Spell Sliding syntheses, but I do think this feat is pretty much good to go as written. Worst case, the other available level 8 Magus feats are also strong if not even stronger.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

HumbleGamer, that works if the enemy knows you and your tactics and has reason to prepare accordingly.

It's bad GMing when monsters that have never met you before avoid targeting you because of your abilities.


MaxAstro wrote:

HumbleGamer, that works if the enemy knows you and your tactics and has reason to prepare accordingly.

It's bad GMing when monsters that have never met you before avoid targeting you because of your abilities.

No it's not.

If you as player make assumptions, enemies are allowed to make at least basic absumption ( which are that you won't send ahead spellcasters bearing a greatsword ).

For crying out loud, Just imagine a battlefield.

Where would be the archers or ranged opponents?
Who would probably lead the charge?

There's no need to either metagame or knowledge when it comes to guess or basic tactical understanding ( and beware, I am talking about intelligent characters ).

When a battle occours and you give a brief description to the players, think about the same for the enemies. No meta stuff, just imagine to describe what the enemies see.

Different is

1) to try to positioning in a specific way not to give the flatfooted status to a rogue ( without knowing it's a rogue )

2) Or to step "ONLY" when in reach with a fighter o( or those characters you DM knows have AoO )

3) Or to focus the champion because you know its reaction will only occour if you hit an ally.

This.
This will require some intelligence ahead ( and because so would be meta if the enemies have no reason to know it ).

Not basic tactics.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Secrets of Magic Playtest / Magus Class / Capture Spell is Amazing All Messageboards
Recent threads in Magus Class