Building a Swashbuckler pseudo-swordlord for a Kingmaker game


Advice


So, this alias is the character, and I was setting up for feinting in combat and the usual swashbuckler shenanigans. My concern is, do you guys think that I'm waiting too late to take the feint tree, or are they even effective as that level anymore?

Any ideas for improvement, or ways to make this character fit the theme I have going with her backstory are most appreciated.

Thanks!

Level up proposal:

1:Weapon Focus-ADS, Slashing Grace, Swashbuckler's Finesse
2:--
3:Quick Draw
4:Dueling Mastery
5:Combat Expertise
6:--
7:Improved Feint
8:Wave Strike
9:Weapon Specialization
10:--
11:Greater Weapon Focus
12:Greater Weapon Specialization
13:?


You don't qualify for dueling mastery at 4 as you don't have weapon proficiency in the dueling sword. Honestly considering that the proficiency is an utterly wasted feat I would just not get dueling mastery.

This would let you start your feint tree much earlier too as you wouldn't need quick draw that early either.


I have the trait for proficiency.

Having to use masterwork transformation to maintain it and having a magical weapon for appropriate levels is a bit of a hassle, but worth not having to burn the feat slot in my opinion. Especially considering the way kingmaker works, it should be a lot easier than normal.


Shameless bump.


Have you considered cavalier daring champion instead? After a long review, that was my choice over Swashbuckler for the way of the wicked campaign. I have not quite reached fourth level so I don't have deeds yet, but I do not regret it.

By the way, have fun with Kingmaker it is really fun!


I have, but I want the swash class for this character


Unfortunately the truth of it is you're going to get a lot of people coming on here telling you not to bother with the Dueling Sword because it's so horrid. And unfortunately, they're sort of right. But if you want to play a character that uses the Dueling Sword, you aught to. Because insane optimization =/= fun.

Grand Lodge

Swashbuckler, because of the name of the class, or because the mechanics meet your concept?

Grand Lodge

Which trait is granting you proficiency?


This trait:

Heirloom Weapon:

You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.

Benefit: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:

proficiency with that specific weapon
a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.
Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.

The name has nothing to do with it. It's the mechanics I'm after.


Heirloom Weapon is fine, though a rapier is a better weapon for a swashbuckler due to the crit range & panache recovery mechanic.

A feint can boost your effective attack bonus in many fights. The thing is - you don't especially need that, you're a full BAB character without TWF. You don't even have the Power Attack feat. Very often you'll want that move or swift action more than you want to cut down your enemy's AC, to move up or for Charmed Life or Menacing Swordplay.

You might consider the Critical Focus feat and one of the ____ Critical feats at high levels. Power Attack could be useful at any level. If you don't get PA you might consider some combat maneuver feats.


Yeah, heirloom weapon isn't great. If you loose that wepon at any time you then have a dead trait

Take a race that gives you an Exotic Weapon Proficentcy (Half Elf is good as it can give you poison use) and take Sword Scion for a pernament +1 to attack rolls and combat manevours.

Also concider that an Aldori Dueling Sword is just a Long Sword when you don't have the EWP, and the main advantage of a Dueling Sword is that you can use Weapon Finesse; which you can do anyway as a Swashbuckler. You could just wield an Aldori Sword and treat it as a Long Sword.

And in all honesty, instead of Dueling Mastery you could just take Dodge, sure, it's 1 AC less, but you're also freeing up a feat.

Liberty's Edge

Maralynn Rose wrote:
The name has nothing to do with it. It's the mechanics I'm after.

Which mechanics? Bleeding Wound, Kip-Up, Derring-Do and Swashbuckler's Grace? Or Charmed Life?

Because, prior to 15th level that's all a Swashbuckler gets that a Daring Champion doesn't get some equivalent to within a few levels. I mean, I guess there's Superior Feint and Improved Critical each four levels early...but a Challenge and a good Fort Save are so much better than those it's not even funny.

Grand Lodge

Heirloom Weapon doesn't work, as you need to choose a Simple, or Martial Weapon.

An Aldori Dueling Sword is an Exotic weapon.


You're right, how the **** did I miss that...

The reason I am going for the dueling sword is because of the flavor of the campaign. It's the main weapon of Brevoy, it's a huge part of the characters backstory, and it allows dex to damage with slashing grace.

This is one of the cases where I'm happier sacrificing more effectiveness for flavor, I'm afraid. The GM is willing to allow slashing grace and weapon focus long sword to be retrained at level three when I pick up exotic weapon proficiency with the dueling sword, so that cures that hiccup.

Which critical focus feats work best for a swashbuckler? It looks like that's what I'll be focusing on after the Aldori Sword feats are out of the way. That and Iron Will, unless anyone has any better ideas.


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just use your Dueling Sword as a Long Sword, all the flavour without any of the Exotic Weapon Proficentcys

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I have to second the Daring Champion archetype recommendation. It's a far more functional class and enables far more functional builds, although it's perhaps not as flavorful for your purposes.

With that disclaimer, it sounds like you're already sold on Swashbuckler. There are two major mechanical challenges your Swashbuckler is going to have just by virtue of the class: concealment and saving throws.

Concealment is easy to create and shuts down precision damage normally with a potion of blur, or a spellcaster who prepares the same, which you may find a few of--especially as your character starts to make a name for herself. If this is something your GM starts doing, consider the Shadow Strike feat.

Charmed Life helps your saves a little, but probably not enough. You might want to consider one of the "+1 Will Save" traits and/or Iron Will, and getting a Cloak of Resistance should probably be a priority.

Feinting is definitely a thing you can be successful at in Kingmaker, although some of the opponents you'll find it most effective against are earlier rather than later. I think if I say too much more I might have to start using spoiler tags, but it doesn't seem like a thing to get into late in the game.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

One more note--it doesn't look like Wave Strike is going to be terribly compatible with Dueling Master, since Wave Strike rewards you for keeping your weapon sheathed, while Dueling Master rewards you for keeping it drawn. You might want to pick one or the other.


Ok. I'm considering the daring champion archetype now. To maintain the type of flavor I'm going for with this character, what do you guys suggest?


Well... what type of flavor do you consider? What theme/backstory do you have? I can see wave strike being a thing you do, but feinting is kinda bad in general, and you really don't need it (not to mention wave strike is kinda weird, as "draw a weapon for X" is not really a thing by the rules).


Diminuendo wrote:
just use your Dueling Sword as a Long Sword, all the flavour without any of the Exotic Weapon Proficentcys

^This. The dueling sword feats are largely sub-optimal, as are the benefits for Exotic Weapon proficiency if you're already going to take Slashing Grace. Instead, I would take advantage of the extra +1 to attack you'll be getting from Sword Scion and trying to optimize for accuracy and parries.

Consider the following:
traits: Sword Scion, Fencer

1: Weapon Focus, Slashing Grace, ???
2: --
3: ???
4: Weapon Specialization
5: ???
6: --
7: Lunge
8: Greater Weapon Focus
9: Critical Focus
10: --
11: Signature Deed (Opportune Parry and Riposte)
12: Versatile Critical (or Sickening Critical)
13: Staggering Critical
14: Critical Mastery

Options for the open spots:
*Extra Panache (depending on your charisma bonus)
*Combat Reflexes (for extra parries per round)
*Iron Will and Improved Iron Will
*Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack
*Power Attack and Pushing Assault (good for disengaging with enemies)
*Improved Initiative
*Dazzling Display, Disheartening Display, Shatter Defenses, and Deadly Strike (you'll need to swap out more feats if you go this route)

You might also consider Bodyguard to get extra millage out of Combat Reflexes, but, if you do that, you might as well go Daring Champion for Order of the Dragon. You can focus more on crits by taking Improved Critical instead of Greater Weapon Focus at 8th level (or you could just get a keen dueling sword and get the best of both worlds).


LoneKnave wrote:
Well... what type of flavor do you consider? What theme/backstory do you have? I can see wave strike being a thing you do, but feinting is kinda bad in general, and you really don't need it (not to mention wave strike is kinda weird, as "draw a weapon for X" is not really a thing by the rules).

The background and flavor is in the alias I'm using. I'm pretty much not going to worry about feinting at all.


I'd probably consider getting power attack and maybe some way to boost the weak saves, either by feats or traits. Sure, you have charmed life, but I'm not sure that will be enough all the time. IIRC there is no problem for a swashbuckler to use a one-handed weapon with both hands, right?

Strange, though, when I was reading the daring champion I was fairly underwhelmed. Having to rely on challenges for the extra damage and losing weapon training (and its respective boosts from gloves of dueling) seemed quite tricky to me. Apart from having a different strong save, they seemed more different in whether you want a bit more personal power vs a bit more teamwork-related abilities.


They don't have to rely on challenge. They get precise strike just like swashbucklers do. They also keep all of their teamwork feats.

Huh, you could actually use the Betrayal teamwork feats, now that I think about it. Would be thematic maybe?

EDIT: oh, you meant "bit more teamwork instead of bit more personal power" as if Daring champions had less power than swashbucklers, gotcha.


Some things I'll point out...

It's generally agreed that daring champion is better than swashbuckler - challenge, tactician, and the order bonuses are REALLY good. There are benefits to sticking with swashbuckler, however. They are:

*Earlier access to class abilities (having something now is a lot more useful than having something a few levels from now)

*Counts as a fighter for the fighter feats (very big if you want to focus on crits)

*More bonus feats (which makes the previous point all the stronger)

*Better to-hit bonus via weapon training (which also makes you better at parries)

*Charmed Life (might seem piddly, but will usually cover all of your saves for the entire day)

*Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and Improved Evasion

*Access to the Inspired Blade archetype (only matters if you've got a high Int score and want to use a rapier)

That's not to say these things will top challenge, tactician, and order bonuses. Tactician and Order bonuses can be extremely potent if properly utilized (and if you're willing to play a character able to take advantage of them). Similarly, extra feats are only as useful as you make them. But you do have reasons to stay swashbuckler, especially if you wanted to focus on crits and parries - presuming that's what you want.

Edit: one more thing - the favored class bonus for human swashbucklers undoubtably more useful than the (literal) non-option you get for a human daring champion.


Are you wanting to go full Swashbuckler as opposed to taking the prestige class or fighter variant (aldori swordlord)? Are you concerned that much about min/maxing? I had built an NPC for Kingmaker that is Swashbuckler/Aldori Swordlord prestige, and he seems pretty impressive on paper at least (can't say how well as he's an NPC in the campaign).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Swashbucklers lose a bunch of bonuses if they start wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands--for example, Precise Strike goes away.

Power Attack is a good way to go, that does start compensating for some lost damage.

Weapon training is nice, but it's limited. I'd hesitate to assume that any particular wondrous item is going to be available, so I don't know that I'd bank on having Gloves of Dueling to make the build worthwhile.

The best Daring Champion build I've managed so far is a Swordlord build I'm coincidentally working on this week. It requires a LG character and ascribes to the Order of the Star, which then allows for a surprisingly useful two-level "dip" into Paladin (Sacred Shield archetype). The archetype's Bastion of Good ability is good enough to keep using at higher levels even if you stick to only two levels in Paladin, unlike the standard Smite Evil. You still do damage, although not on the level of a rage-pouncing barbarian or dedicated archer. You don't lose a ton from not going Swashbuckler or pureclass Daring Champion Cavalier, and you gain a bunch of defensive capability, plus some moderately-scaling Lay on Hands that gives you something to do when you run out of swift actions. The two big issues with this, of course, are that:
1. It's defensive, and not offensive; offense is generally more effective than defense. And,
2. It looks like the OP's character is LE, not LG, which rules this out entirely.

These are things that can be worked around and may not even be a problem at all, depending on party composition. I personally think that the Swashbuckler is a bit of a "glass rifle", a class that doesn't do enough damage to offset the class's multiple defensive vulnerabilities. Giving up a bit of offense in favor of massively improving your defenses seems like a fair trade to me.


Inspired blade IS good, but you have to focus on using the rapier, and that doesn't appear to fit with this concept.


Terminalmancer wrote:
Swashbucklers lose a bunch of bonuses if they start wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands--for example, Precise Strike goes away.

I don't think it does, actually. Here is what I am going by:

"At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler"

So, what are the requirements for precise strike:

- use a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon
- do not attack with a weapon in the other hand or use a shield other than a buckler.

This would imply that attacking a one-handed piercing melee weapon such as a trident (or another one-handed weapon allowed by slashing grace etc) held in both hands is okay, as it is the size class and type of the weapon that is important. Incidentally, the rules would allow using the off hand for unarmed attacks as well, and I was hoping to try out a crane style monk/swashbuckler or monk/fighter before Crane Wing was nerfed :) .

Let me know if I am missing a FAQ ruling on that, but to the best of my knowledge the above is a fully legitimate interpretation.

@Loneknave: my bad for not seeing the Daring champion gets to keep precise strike, that makes it a lot better than I originally thought.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Shaman wrote:
Terminalmancer wrote:
Swashbucklers lose a bunch of bonuses if they start wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands--for example, Precise Strike goes away.

I don't think it does, actually. Here is what I am going by:

"At 3rd level, while she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield other than a buckler"

You're right, I got the requirements mixed up with Slashing Grace's requirements:

Slashing Grace wrote:
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

So while you don't want to hold your weapon in two hands, the reason is not the one I said it was! Sorry 'bout that.


Aha, right - so the restriction is only for weapons that are allowed due to the slashing grace feat. This rules it out for most weapons, true - though it makes swashbucklers/daring champs with proficiency in the estoc completely beastly :).


Estoc doesn't get dex to damage from any sources as far as I can tell tho.


It would fit with a strength-heavy build, as you can use power attack and precise strike, while retaining a good critical threat range.

Grand Lodge

Is the Effortless Lace available to you?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Shaman wrote:
Aha, right - so the restriction is only for weapons that are allowed due to the slashing grace feat. This rules it out for most weapons, true - though it makes swashbucklers/daring champs with proficiency in the estoc completely beastly :).

That's a good thought, but LoneKnave is right. The Estoc's thing is that you can apply Weapon Finesse to a weapon that is not normally finesse-able. It doesn't actually say you can add your dexterity to damage with attacks using it. It also has some unusual conditional text about it changing from a one-handed to a two-handed weapon depending on how you hold it which I am pretty sure messes up a bunch of other things in the build if you were to use it two-handed.

Melee Tactics Toolbox wrote:

Estoc

An estoc is a sword about as long as a bastard sword, but designed exclusively for thrusting attacks. Its “blade” is a steel spike with a triangular, square, or hexagonal cross-section. Like the bastard sword, an estoc requires special training to use it one handed, but it can also be wielded as a two-handed martial weapon.

When you wield an estoc with one hand, treat it as a one-handed weapon; when you wield an estoc with two hands, treat it as a two-handed weapon. If you can use the estoc proficiently with one hand, you can also use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls when wielding an estoc sized for you with one or two hands, even though it isn't a light weapon.


Wouldn't you be able to apply slashing grace to an Estoc if you have proficiency with it though?

Silver Crusade

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The Shaman wrote:
It would fit with a strength-heavy build, as you can use power attack and precise strike, while retaining a good critical threat range.

Why would you go with a strength-heavy Daring Champion or Swashbuckler build, though? The classes/builds are designed to get you away from depending on Strength for offense. Even meeting the strength requirement for Power Attack kind of sucks for the build since it pulls three points away from other stats like Charisma or Con.

If you wanted threat range, Scimitar and Dervish Dance (or Slashing Grace, still) would be a better option, or you could go with Fencing Grace and a rapier. Which is sort of how the Swashbuckler is "supposed" to work, anyway.

Grand Lodge

True.

You can get it enchanted with the Agile enchantment though.

Silver Crusade

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Maralynn Rose wrote:
Wouldn't you be able to apply slashing grace to an Estoc if you have proficiency with it though?

Slashing Grace works with one-handed slashing weapons. The estoc is a piercing-only weapon, so it doesn't qualify for the feat.

:(

(This is why Fencing Grace was written--after Slashing Grace was published, people interested in the Swashbuckler pointed out that the dex-to-damage feat totally meant for Swashbucklers totally did not work with the rapier, the iconic Swashbuckler weapon. But Fencing Grace only works with rapiers, not anything else.)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
You can get it enchanted with the Agile enchantment though.

If you're willing to lose a + to your weapon, the Agile property solves a whole bunch of problems. BBT is right, it might be worth considering.


Maralynn Rose wrote:
Wouldn't you be able to apply slashing grace to an Estoc if you have proficiency with it though?

EDIT:Nope, it's a piercing weapon. That's what I get for posting from work.


What if I changed to inspired blade swash, with fencing grace, and focused on the weapon focus and weapon specialization tree until I needed the two iron will feats, with 13 strength for power attack. Once at the appropriate level, run with the critical focus chain.

It sounds effective in my head, but has anyone run a build like this before? How well do the critical focus feats work at higher levels?

Grand Lodge

It's decent.


Why wouldn't you be using an Aldori dueling sword if you're playing an aldori swordlord? The weapon is slashing and works with weapon finesse/slashing grace?


You may also want to get combat reflexes here whatever you go with given how well that will work with opportune parry/riposte, which plays off your AofO's. Definitely take that as your signature deed since it is the one you will probably use the most. Also, don't forget to take the feat chain challenge once you qualify if you do go daring champion.

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